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[CornBurrito]

I heard about this on the BBC today. Horrifying.

They asked people to recite suras from the Quran and if the people failed, they killed them. I guess that is the Islamist version of a game show. :-/


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30160199



Seriously. People need to chill the fuck out on their religion. Everyone needs ask themselves "What if I am wrong?"
Be a good person and perhaps the creator (if one exists) will pardon you no matter what religion.

I see nothing ridiculous about believing in a god that actively requires you to convert others and wouldn't pardon you no matter what. A god doesn't need to follow 21st century human morals. Why can't god be super violent and demand his followers act similarly?

 

[rambis]

They really do. Pretty much every religion suffers from this. The crusades happened with the backing of the church and gods blessing....

Thankfully the majority have moved on from the middle ages,we just need these nutters to.

I'm sorry but "but every religion does" is not a very compelling argument nor is it particularly inciteful. That has no bearing here in a conversation about jihadism.

 

[RustyNails]

I see nothing ridiculous about believing in a god that actively requires you to convert others and wouldn't pardon you no matter what. A god doesn't need to follow 21st century human morals. Why can't god be super violent and demand his followers act similarly?

These guys are trying to incite a religious war. They weren't even trying to convert people in the bus.

 

[Two Words]

I see nothing ridiculous about believing in a god that actively requires you to convert others and wouldn't pardon you no matter what. A god doesn't need to follow 21st century human morals. Why can't god be super violent and demand his followers act similarly?

I don't really get why God would have emotions if he's not a product of nature.

 

[Soriku]

So just around today we have :

- 28 killed on a bus by al-shabab militants who want a "religious war"

- 45 killed at a volleyball game by a suicide bomber

- 50 killed by ADF with axes, an ally of al-shabab and fellow islamist group

and finally

- 48 fishermen killed by boko haram, who chose to slit their throats rather than shoot them and risk alerting nearby forces

In total 171 killed in around the last 24 hours by these religious zealots, not counting the numerous individual killings by these groups that go unreported.

One tiny bit of good news came through today though, and that's that the woman who was arrested trying to watch a men's volleyball game in Iran has been freed.

Goddamn the Middle East is a shithole. People need to get out if they can.

 

[Nesotenso]

Goddamn the Middle East is a shithole. People need to get out if they can.

3 of the 4 stories are in Africa and the only other one is in Afghanistan.

 

[CornBurrito]

These guys are trying to incite a religious war. They weren't even trying to convert people in the bus.

Not directly, but fear can and has been used as a conversion technique in the past.

 

[Valhelm]

The religion of peace strikes again.

Non- religious people tend to be less violent because they don't have anything galvanizing them together into a group. It's like herding cats. So sure, atheists can be violent and have been. But a lone assailant is not going to be dangerous as a group.

But secular ideologies can be just as dangerous as religious ideologies. For example, Stalinism or Naziism.

 

[Kurdel]

But secular ideologies can be just as dangerous as religious ideologies. For example, Stalinism or Naziism.

Those aren't ideologies based on secularism, but nice try!

edit: And I really don't get how I still read stiff like this. You would think people would have already read up on the subject before parroting historically innacurate talking points.

I don't really get why God would have emotions if he's not a product of nature.

Fits perfectly into the "Man made God in his image" trope.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

But secular ideologies can be just as dangerous as religious ideologies. For example, Stalinism or Naziism.

stalinism and naziism died when their creator died. non-secular continued on. there's a diff.

 

[MasterChef420]

Islam. Bu..bu..but its the religion of peace!(That is to say if you are muslim... if you arent you will be killed)

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Just to be clear, you're saying that these men killing non-Muslim passengers is not a religiously motivated conflict, right?

Precisely.

That is the only conclusion once all the facts are considered, as I outlined in that post.

If, however, the only factors that are relevant to you are that one group are Muslim extremists and the other not, then the only conclusion you'll come to is that the cause is religion.

This conflict began decades ago, long before the involvement of Jihadists. The killing of Kenyans is a common response to foreign intervention. This was happening long before, with the enemy being identified as 'foreign invaders' by past secular governments. Today, the specific targeting of non-Muslims is to reinforce Al-Shabab's narrative that foreign infidels are the enemy. What's remained constant is the focus; Kenya. Why? Read my previous post.

 

[Valhelm]

Those aren't ideologies based on secularism, but nice try!

edit: And I really don't get how I still read stiff like this. You would think people would have already read up on the subject before parroting historically innacurate talking points.

Who said anything about being "based in secularism"? Those are examples of secular philosophies that lead to huge amounts of killing.

Most ideologically-motivated killing throughout history has happened because of religion, but since the 20th century philosophical or politically dogmatic violence has become quite common. Stalinism dealt with the rejection of Christianity, as you know.

 

[Durask]

Weird how it's so uncommon for violent crazies to latch onto atheism or secular philosophies. Where are all the stories about people being executed by godless bigots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Fields

 

[kitch9]

I'm sorry but "but every religion does" is not a very compelling argument nor is it particularly inciteful. That has no bearing here in a conversation about jihadism.

I meant every religion has had or has nutters willing to kill in the name of said religion based on their (loose) interpretation of the words.

Jihadis think they can kill anyone, including those from their own religion because they don't believe their interpretation of the words and they will get to bang a few virgins in heaven in return.

Crazy when you think about it, but that is what they are promised and want. How you interpret the religion has no bearing on the situation and at the end of the day no-one knows what is right and wrong or what the author of the Qu'ran actually wants from the world. If it was clear their would be no need the need for Islamic Scholars who are still "interpreting" the words for Muslims today.

 

[rambis]

I meant every religion has had or has nutters willing to kill in the name of said religion based on their (loose) interpretation of the words.

Jihadis think they can kill anyone, including those from their own religion because they don't believe their interpretation of the words and they will get to bang a few virgins in heaven.

Crazy when you think about it, but that is what they are promised and want. How you interpret the religion has no bearing on the situation and at the end of the day no-one knows what is right and wrong or what the author of the Qu'ran actually wants from the world. If it was clear their would be no need the need for Islamic Scholars who are still "interpreting" the words for Muslims today.

You can't just keep parroting this in different ways to make it seem like you know what you are talking about. Its wrong, you have a fundamentally flawed take of the situation and what you think you understand about religion isn't relevant.

Jihadism is not a question of quranic interpretation. Its a question of there being a holy war(ala crusade) against Muslims and rather Muslims are required to fulfill their holy duty of Jihad. This guy in the OP even called the Kenyans crusaders.

 

[Son of Sam]

It will just continue and continue and continue

 

[kitch9]

You can't just keep parroting this in different ways to make it seem like you know what you are talking about. Its wrong, you have a fundamentally flawed take of the situation and what you think you understand about religion isn't relevant.

Jihadism is not a question of quranic interpretation. Its a question of there being a holy war(ala crusade) against Muslims and rather Muslims are required to fulfill their holy duty of Jihad. This guy in the OP even called the Kenyans crusaders.

Of course its a question of interpretation, if it wasn't either all Muslims would be at war or they wouldn't.

 

[rambis]

Of course its a question of interpretation, if it wasn't either all Muslims would be at war or they wouldn't.

So I point out your ignorance of the situation and instead of acknowledging your conflation you close your ears and double down. I can't do this fox news shit this morning dude. Arrivederci.

 

[kitch9]

So I point out your ignorance of the situation and instead of acknowledging your conflation you close your ears and double down. I can't do this fox news shit this morning dude. Arrivederci.

Over complicate the situation all you want. Some muslims are at Jihad because they think their book says they are and the criteria is met, and the majority of Muslims think they aren't because they think their book says that they aren't.

You have different scholars who can't even agree what Jihad is and what it means to god, its not hard to see why we have the shit show in the world that we have currently. The current interpretations of the word range from how a person feels about themself to getting on a bus and killing random people how can't recite the Qu'ran.

Its not just Islam that suffers from this, there is still worldwide debate in most religions as to what the words of their books actually mean and there always will be because to be frank the ancient language used in them is mostly mumbo jumbo to the average person on the street and could mean anything.

 

[nynt9]

Precisely.

That is the only conclusion once all the facts are considered, as I outlined in that post.

If, however, the only factors that are relevant to you are that one group are Muslim extremists and the other not, then the only conclusion you'll come to is that the cause is religion.

This conflict began decades ago, long before the involvement of Jihadists. The killing of Kenyans is a common response to foreign intervention. This was happening long before, with the enemy being identified as 'foreign invaders' by past secular governments. Today, the specific targeting of non-Muslims is to reinforce Al-Shabab's narrative that foreign infidels are the enemy. What's remained constant is the focus; Kenya. Why? Read my previous post.

I understand the context of the larger conflict. But just because there is a long-running large conflict, doesn't mean this particular event can't be religiously motivated. Even the way you rephrased the long term narrative, specifically targeting non-Muslims, is a religious motive. Sure, it comes with additional context, but it's also religiously driven.

 

[Kurdel]

Who said anything about being "based in secularism"? Those are examples of secular philosophies that lead to huge amounts of killing.

Most ideologically-motivated killing throughout history has happened because of religion, but since the 20th century philosophical or politically dogmatic violence has become quite common. Stalinism dealt with the rejection of Christianity, as you know.

Hitler used christianity to motivate his troops, and it worked. It wasn't a secular endevour, so I don't know why you would include it. People uaually mention Hitler because he used eugenics. which came from Darwinism, so evolution is evil.

The Soviet Union had enforced state run and enforced atheism, but to say it was an integral part that lead to the death of millions is a shallow argument for people who say you cannot be moral without God, which isn't the case.

As I said, this isn't new information, and it pops up every single time.

 

[rambis]

Hitler used christianity to motivate his troops, and it worked. It wasn't a secular endevour, so I don't know why you would include it. People uaually mention Hitler because he used eugenics. which came from Darwinism, so evolution is evil.

The Soviet Union had enforced state run and enforced atheism, but to say it was an integral part that lead to the death of millions is a shallow argument for people who say you cannot be moral without God, which isn't the case.

As I said, this isn't new information, and it pops up every single time.

What?

Hitler was very skeptic of Christianity and many historians believed that he was even anti christian. In "The Third Reich of War" he is supposedly quoted as saying that Nazism was indeed secular founded in science and incompatible with religion. His reluctance to take public stances against religion is said to be born of concern for his controls and hold over the people.

 

[y2dvd]

Seriously, why is religion still around at this day and age?

 

[Kurdel]

What?

Hitler was very skeptic of Christianity and many historians believed that he was even anti christian. In "The Third Reich of War" he is supposedly quoted as saying that Nazism was indeed secular founded in science and incompatible with religion. His reluctance to take public stances against religion is said to be born of concern for his controls and hold over the people.

What does that have to do with the atrocities of the Nazi party and secularism?

 

[rambis]

What does that have to do with the atrocities of the Nazi party and secularism?

Um, I don't know that it has anything to do with it. Im replying to the post that I quoted.


But yeah, if Hitler himself declared Nazism to be secular and not compatible with Christianity, then its totally a valid assesment to call Nazism secular.

 

[kitch9]

Seriously, why is religion still around at this day and age?

I struggle to understand this as well but people need to feel that they have the answers I guess, even if that answer is a magic guy in the sky who likes to contradict himself and has decided to spend his existence in righteous judgement of everyone who has ever lived just because.

 

[Kurdel]

Um, I don't know that it has anything to do with it. Im replying to the post that I quoted.

But yeah, if Hitler himself declared Nazism to be secular and not compatible with Christianity, then its totally a valid assesment to call Nazism secular.

Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries.

I think Hitler played the religion card really well, despite his personal beleifs and the beliefs within the higher ups.

To say it is an example of a secular gov is just plain false.

 

[Earendil]

Seriously. People need to chill the fuck out on their religion. Everyone needs ask themselves "What if I am wrong?"
Be a good person and perhaps the creator (if one exists) will pardon you no matter what religion.

My personal belief is that the same people doing bad things in the name of religion would still be doing bad things in a different name if they weren't religious. They use it as a shield to absolve them of responsibility for hurting others. The fact of the matter is, bad people are bad regardless of their "reasons".

 

[MacNille]

For those who say that the nazis was secular:

the german solider had used belt buckles such as these.

 

[RoadHazard]

Um, I don't know that it has anything to do with it. Im replying to the post that I quoted.


But yeah, if Hitler himself declared Nazism to be secular and not compatible with Christianity, then its totally a valid assesment to call Nazism secular.

Not so sure about that, but either way, Hitler did not murder people in the name of secularism or atheism. Nor did Stalin. Very few ever have. Meanwhile, so, so many people have been murdered in the name of various religions. So when people say that "secular ideologies have killed people too" that's a complete non-argument IMO. A lack of religious beliefs doesn't turn people into murderers. The opposite often does, or at least it "helps" significantly.

 

[The Shogun]

People that use religion for killing innocent people are disgusting. You have to be a complete fucking coward to hide behind "spiritual beliefs" as an excuse to carry out these barbaric acts.

Religious fanatics are the absolute lowest form of humanity.

 

[Kurdel]

People that use religion for killing innocent people are disgusting. You have to be a complete fucking coward to hide behind "spiritual beliefs" as an excuse to carry out these barbaric acts.

Religious fanatics are the absolute lowest form of humanity.

Calling them cowards isn't really accurate.

These people stand up for what they believe, and feel pride for being holier than thou. They can feel solidarity with the divine, and the admiration of their cowardly congregation, glad a young man did something for their community.

They are volonteers, and sometimes martyred for this love and feeling of belonging.

Watching documentaries about suicide bombers in Palestine really opened my eyes to the fact that these people can be adored by their communities, for enacting perceived divine justice.

 

[The Shogun]

Calling them cowards isn't really accurate.

These people stand up for what they believe, and feel pride for being holier than thou. They can feel solidarity with the divine, and the admiration of their cowardly congregation, glad a young man did something for their community.

They are volonteers, and sometimes martyred for this love and feeling of belonging.

Watching documentaries about suicide bombers in Palestine really opened my eyes to the fact that these people can be adored by their communities, for enacting perceived divine justice.

Its all a lie. They are slaughtering innocent people over make believe. There is zero scientific evidence to support any claim made in historical religious texts. If someone wants to draw some life lessons from it thats fine. But killing people over something so arbitrary pathetic and inexcusable.

There should be zero sympathy for these kinds of murders and the entire world should be acting to shut this form of human reasoning down.

 

[Valhelm]

Hitler used christianity to motivate his troops, and it worked. It wasn't a secular endevour, so I don't know why you would include it. People uaually mention Hitler because he used eugenics. which came from Darwinism, so evolution is evil.

The Soviet Union had enforced state run and enforced atheism, but to say it was an integral part that lead to the death of millions is a shallow argument for people who say you cannot be moral without God, which isn't the case.

As I said, this isn't new information, and it pops up every single time.

Why are you putting words into my mouth? I'm not any kind of Creationist apologist and I'm agnostic. But you need to realize that secular ideologies have, in the past, been as harmful as religious ideologies.

 

[Kurdel]

Why are you putting words into my mouth? I'm not any kind of Creationist apologist and I'm agnostic. But you need to realize that secular ideologies have, in the past, been as harmful as religious ideologies.

I wasn't implying that you had these beliefs, how could I possibly know that?

I am saying that framed in the context of this debate, those are the argument for mentionning Nazism and Stallinism. Bringing them up to illustrate how secularism "can be as dangerous as religious ideologies" is not only a false equivalency, but historically false.

But secular ideologies can be just as dangerous as religious ideologies. For example, Stalinism or Naziism.

But you need to realize that secular ideologies have, in the past, been as harmful as religious ideologies.

Moving goalposts doesn't help you a lot here, without any examples. Ane even then, good luck at showing how the secular nature at the core of the ideology is something that is a rule, rather than an exception.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Islam. Bu..bu..but its the religion of peace!(That is to say if you are muslim... if you arent you will be killed)

This read like a youtube comment... *shudder*

 

[Mesousa]

This read like a youtube comment... *shudder*

All the way down to the HALO inspired name lol.