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[OnPoint]

UGGGGGGGGGH People complaining about UGx in EDH is so tired. I'm not sorry that your Boros wall tribal deck couldn't keep up and your 7 card combo was interrupted. Either ramp up the power level to meet your playgroup or find another group. I'm not hyper competitive by any means but be realistic people. Calling for Cyclonic Rift to be banned for what? I can admit that a lot of things that are on the banned list are problematic but wanting something gone just because you don't know how to play around it and it sets you back? Why not just ban every board wipe and targeted removal spell while were at it.

#1: You starting with UGGGGGGGG defending UG cracks me up lol

#2: It's all opinion based, yeah? Good for you that you don't mind it, but plenty of others do. Deck power level and play patterns have nothing to do with it.

#3: It has way more upside than other wraths, which is the problem. It wipes everything that's not a land, and everything that's not yours. Plus it's instant speed. It's not on the level of Wrath of God or Damnation or Merciless Eviction, it's tiers above them and thus facilitates quite a lot of hate compared to other wraths.

 

[Imperfected]

Any time your starting position on a Magic-related topic is "everyone who disagrees with me doesn't know how to build decks", you should probably just go ahead and delete whatever you were thinking about typing and go do some yoga.

 

[Toxi]

UGGGGGGGGGH People complaining about UGx in EDH is so tired. I'm not sorry that your Boros wall tribal deck couldn't keep up and your 7 card combo was interrupted. Either ramp up the power level to meet your playgroup or find another group. I'm not hyper competitive by any means but be realistic people. Calling for Cyclonic Rift to be banned for what? I can admit that a lot of things that are on the banned list are problematic but wanting something gone just because you don't know how to play around it and it sets you back? Why not just ban every board wipe and targeted removal spell while were at it.

I complain because I've played EDH for a long time, and throughout that entire time I've had to face many UG decks, and the vast majority of them play the fucking same. They use the same cards, same strategies, same win conditions, etc. New cards keep getting printed, but the basic shell is always the same.

And it's obnoxious. It's especially bad when Wizards keeps making good generic value cards in these colors. Prophet of Kruphix is one of the dumbest cards ever designed. "What if every other turn was your turn LOL" and then the rules council took too long to ban that shit even though it was blatantly dumb.

 

[charlequin]

UGx is obnoxious in EDH because so many groups consider it 'unfun' to fuck with manabases, attack players early on, or take out a player with no board state who's doing nothing but ramp. It's not the archtype's fault, but it's miserable to play against. The only ways you can interact with it cause too much whining.

This is a pretty good take, actually. UGx is a natural predator of the type of passive-aggressive standards people put in place in EDH without recognizing the consequences of calling certain forms of disruption "off-limits."

 

[Firemind]

I just play land destruction.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sure, I'm just saying that's literally the exact opposite of an optics decision. This was a choice that makes them look super bad collectively, pissed off a ton of their fanbase, and has a non-zero chance of getting someone in serious trouble with their bosses. That's not optics, that's just generic cowardice or oblivousness, take your pick.


I will reiterate Grimace's answer here and say that yes, I am surprised they made a decision this stupid because it is actually very rare for them to make a decision this stupid (as opposed to, say, fuck up on playtesting)

The way I'm seeing it, either way was bad optics - the people who get upset by "no changes" are louder online than the people who don't, but the people that get upset that their deck is banned is probably a bigger group. My guess is that they were pandering to the latter and not the former. Pandering to the "don't ban my deck" guys is a plus-optics decision for themselves as well, because they can continue to double down on the insistence that Standard is fine and their new set is going to solve everything, and Temur Tower, guys!

 

[OnPoint]

This is a pretty good take, actually. UGx is a natural predator of the type of passive-aggressive standards people put in place in EDH without recognizing the consequences of calling certain forms of disruption "off-limits."

That's exactly how people are starting to counter it in my group. Stax is now a deck when it never was before. And they always go after whoever is playing UG.

 

[alternade]

Any time your starting position on a Magic-related topic is "everyone who disagrees with me doesn't know how to build decks", you should probably just go ahead and delete whatever you were thinking about typing and go do some yoga.

How do you suppose one wins a game other than through decent deck building? I'm against degeneracy for the most part, my play group is often is a shit show of stasis locks, land destruction and hand denial. UG does the best things in the format, draw and ramp but that doesn't win you the game on the spot. I've played against mardu decks that had awesome synergy that I couldn't overcome. It boils down to a decent deck and a competent player honestly.

 

[Toxi]

I just play land destruction.

I played land destruction, and then people got upset at me for playing land destruction. And I understand why. Land destruction isn't fun to play against. It's just that the alternative is UG "Generic ramp and card advantage" dominating every game.

 

[Simply Sarah]

UGx is obnoxious in EDH because so many groups consider it 'unfun' to fuck with manabases, attack players early on, or take out a player with no board state who's doing nothing but ramp. It's not the archtype's fault, but it's miserable to play against. The only ways you can interact with it cause too much whining.

I'm sure there are groups where this is not the case. I never found one.

EDIT: That said, I don't believe in EDH bans period, so ¯\_(&#12484_/¯
Just let me play Shahrazad ffs

If there's one card I love more than anything but also think should be banned everywhere then it's Shahrazad. I considered the most obnoxious Magic card ever printed by a huge margin.

As for your main point, well, I feel that's just bad threat assessment/game management. Threat assessment isn't just "What's on the board right now?". It's also "What could be on the board? What is Player X's game plan?". Zur is harmless until he attacks and grabs (pick 1) 1. The most obnoxious possible hate card 2. Necro into a win. That Prossh/Tazri player can sit back and only ramp until oops they play Food Chain and the game is over.

I mean, Food Chain Tazri is one of my decks and I expect players to gun for me even though the deck basically does nothing threatening on board until it combos to win. Heck, Plan B for the deck is basically "Drain everyone with Deathrite Shaman 20 turns".

 

[duxstar]

Because casual magic players dont understand that pairing deadeye navigator with prime speaker is pretty much game over, you havent stopped them from playing their minptaur tribal deck.

Meanwhile if you Armageddon , the view it as you stopping them from playing their spells.

Its no coincidence that most groups make a no mass land destruction rule, but Deadeye navigator, and inifinite combos are more accepted

 

[Lucario]

IMO A lot of the problems with EDH would be fixed if everyone just started at 20 life.

It'd fix the unspoken "don't take players out early" rule, since losing wouldn't mean sitting out for the next three hours. It'd force the ramp decks to interact before turn 10, and maybe start running midrange spells to stabilize instead of being a pile of wraths and top-end spells. It'd also open up a lot of new archtypes, since players wouldn't be able to pretend aggro doesn't exist anymore.

I'm 100% with Toxi here - I stopped playing EDH because I was sick of seeing ramp decks fire off the same win conditions after 20 turns of everyone masturbating. I'd really like to see the format get a shakeup. Building around weird commanders led some of the most fun I've had with Magic, and led me to discover some of my favorite interactions in the game.

 

[Angry Grimace]

EDH is one of those things where the instant anyone starts trying build the equivalent of a Canadian Highlander deck I'd rather be doing something else.

 

[OnPoint]

Lucario, you are 100% right.

 

[Simply Sarah]

IMO A lot of the problems with EDH would be fixed if everyone just started at 20 life.

It'd fix the unspoken "don't take players out early" rule, since losing wouldn't mean sitting out for the next three hours. It'd force the ramp decks to interact before turn 10, and maybe start running midrange spells to stabilize instead of being a pile of wraths and top-end spells. It'd also open up a lot of new archtypes, since players wouldn't be able to pretend aggro doesn't exist anymore.

I'm 100% with Toxi here - I stopped playing EDH because I was sick of seeing ramp decks fire off the same win conditions after 20 turns of everyone masturbating. I'd really like to see the format get a shakeup. Building around weird commanders led some of the most fun I've had with Magic, and led me to discover some of my favorite interactions in the game.

See, I tend to feel a big part of the issue is players confusing something being a "casual format" with that meaning the format needs to be durdly as hell and without actually trying to play Magic. In casual 1v1 Magic I expect that if my deck doesn't do anything for 8 turns then I'm probably getting my face caved in and I don't see why this should be any different for commander. Even goofy decks should have a real game plan beyond needing "Hey guys! No attacks for 10 turns!"

 

[Bandini]

The only GU deck in my playgroup is my wife's Ezuri deck, and it's honestly not too bad. I'm much more worried when she pulls out Nekusar.

Things I would ban in Commander:
Sol Ring
Cyclonic Rift
Rhystic Study

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Cyclonic Rift is the card that fucks up the game for everybody else while the game continues to draft out. Deadeye Navigator is one of a bajillion different ways available to combo off and win the game instantly, so I'm okay with it - I see no reason why it should get any more hate than any number of other cards.

because so many times I see deadeye, its basically the same shit as rift. Unless they pull the end game combo, they instead pull boring shit like Venser or Shriekmaw.

 

[Lucario]

If there's one card I love more than anything but also think should be banned everywhere then it's Shahrazad. I considered the most obnoxious Magic card ever printed by a huge margin.

As for your main point, well, I feel that's just bad threat assessment/game management. Threat assessment isn't just "What's on the board right now?". It's also "What could be on the board? What is Player X's game plan?". Zur is harmless until he attacks and grabs (pick 1) 1. The most obnoxious possible hate card 2. Necro into a win. That Prossh/Tazri player can sit back and only ramp until oops they play Food Chain and the game is over.

I mean, Food Chain Tazri is one of my decks and I expect players to gun for me even though the deck basically does nothing threatening on board until it combos to win. Heck, Plan B for the deck is basically "Drain everyone with Deathrite Shaman 20 turns".

Shahrazad is probably the most obnoxious card ever printed, but I still love it. You get to play MORE Magic! How can anyone get upset about that?

I understand your point, but it still feels like showing proper threat assessment against a ramp deck will get you hated out of an average group. Maybe I just need to play EDH with better players.

People staying passive due to politics throws a wrench into threat assessment too, especially when the group leans towards ramp decks. If I have a 4/4 up and nobody's being aggressive, do I really want to be the one to break the ice? 40 life is a huge buffer, and it's generally not worth the risk of being targeted later for small chunks of damage.

 

[alternade]

IMO A lot of the problems with EDH would be fixed if everyone just started at 20 life.

It'd fix the unspoken "don't take players out early" rule, since losing wouldn't mean sitting out for the next three hours. It'd force the ramp decks to interact before turn 10, and maybe start running midrange spells to stabilize instead of being a pile of wraths and top-end spells. It'd also open up a lot of new archtypes, since players wouldn't be able to pretend aggro doesn't exist anymore.

I'm 100% with Toxi here - I stopped playing EDH because I was sick of seeing ramp decks fire off the same win conditions after 20 turns of everyone masturbating. I'd really like to see the format get a shakeup. Building around weird commanders led some of the most fun I've had with Magic, and led me to discover some of my favorite interactions in the game.

This would just make creature based strategies way too dominant and probably overrun the format.

I think the better solution would be for wotc to print color pie bending commanders and support cards. There no reason you couldn't have this

Boros Prime Speaker Zeganna 2WRR

Flash only after attackers have been declared

You may draw cards equal to the number of attacking creatures this turn.

This more than anything would help diversify the format and open new strategies

 

[Violet_0]

EDH is x turns of non-aggression or some light skirmishing and then the passive combo deck just ends the game again. When it's "competitive" EDH, everyone is on a combo deck anyway

 

[Lucario]

In a perfect EDH, this card would be in every red deck

 

[Simply Sarah]

Shahrazad is probably the most obnoxious card ever printed, but I still love it. You get to play MORE Magic! How can anyone get upset about that?

I understand your point, but it still feels like showing proper threat assessment against a ramp deck will get you hated out of an average group. Maybe I just need to play EDH with better players.

People staying passive due to politics throws a wrench into threat assessment too, especially when the group leans towards ramp decks. If I have a 4/4 up and nobody's being aggressive, do I really want to be the one to break the ice? 40 life is a huge buffer, and it's generally not worth the risk of being targeted later for small chunks of damage.

Sure, politics are the thing. Alsom I wouldn't even say it has to be better players. It just needs to be players that don't hate on people for attempting to do anything besides goldfish for the first half hour. And, well, if people want to play decks where they're waiting for the perfect moment/someone else to make the first move then that's also fine. Just if that's how people are going to build and play their decks then they shouldn't complain when games play out that way. Hopefully you could have players that understand "I have a 4/4 and the rest of you are doing nothing. Why should I stand here also doing nothing when that's not what my deck does?" but I realize that's hit or miss.

 

[Toxi]

In a perfect EDH, this card would be in every red deck

It's in every one of my Red decks. Fucking love this card.

 

[Simply Sarah]

EDH is x turns of non-aggression or some light skirmishing and then the passive combo deck just ends the game again. When it's "competitive" EDH, everyone is on a combo deck anyway

Do you consider stax decks to be combo decks? Because you can totally have "competitive" decks that err on the side of harder stax/prison. Granted, most of those still have some win combo in them because it ends the game faster and uses up less deck space. And all but the most combo based "competitive" decks tend to run a reasonable amount of disruption so at least you interact?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Armageddon effects are fine in EDH as long as you can back it up with quick victory conditions. But when you just do it to "restart" the game, it's agonizing.

 

[Imperfected]

How do you suppose one wins a game other than through decent deck building? [...] It boils down to a decent deck and a competent player honestly.

You're starting with the incorrect assumption that other people aren't building decks that "win" because they don't know how to. Try instead starting from the assumption that other people don't want to play certain kinds of Magic. This is probably a much safer assumption since EDH was almost entirely created to facilitate people who share that sentiment.

There is no great deal of cleverness required to create or play a Turn 4 Win EDH deck. The fact other people aren't playing these obvious combo decks is not a failure on their part to understand deck building. Do not start with that assumption.

 

[Firemind]

I played land destruction, and then people got upset at me for playing land destruction. And I understand why. Land destruction isn't fun to play against. It's just that the alternative is UG "Generic ramp and card advantage" dominating every game.

I think games can be fun when all players are struggling for resources. Often they have to think out of the box and get clever to build a board state. At least it's not the same ol' tedious lines of play.

 

[Violet_0]

Do you consider stax decks to be combo decks? Because you can totally have "competitive" decks that err on the side of harder stax/prison. Granted, most of those still have some win combo in them because it ends the game faster and uses up less deck space. And all but the most combo based "competitive" decks tend to run a reasonable amount of disruption so at least you interact?

as you said, they'll still combo out at some point in the game. If you can mostly ignore the board state aside from the occasional wrath or counterspell it doesn't lead to many fun matches unless people really enjoy racing their combos against each other

 

[jph139]

The only GU deck in my playgroup is my wife's Ezuri deck, and it's honestly not too bad. I'm much more worried when she pulls out Nekusar.

Things I would ban in Commander:
Sol Ring
Cyclonic Rift
Rhystic Study

No idea why Sol Ring is legal. It goes in literally every deck, so each game there's just one player who starts out with a huge advantage.

I like EDH for the variance factor, but it's essentially a Mox. No reason to include it.

 

[OnPoint]

I'm personally against all those auto-include cards like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Lightning Greaves, etc.

But that's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

 

[alternade]

You're starting with the incorrect assumption that other people aren't building decks that "win" because they don't know how to. Try instead starting from the assumption that other people don't want to play certain kinds of Magic. This is probably a much safer assumption since EDH was almost entirely created to facilitate people who share that sentiment.

There is no great deal of cleverness required to create or play a Turn 4 Win EDH deck. The fact other people aren't playing these obvious combo decks is not a failure on their part to understand deck building. Do not start with that assumption.

What do you mean certain types of magic? While edh is more social and political than the other formats it's main goal is the same, kill your opponents before they kill you.

No playing a turn 4 combo deck doesn't take much thought or skill when the deck is finely tuned. If you sit down and expect that the first 10 turns are just a gentlemen's agreement not to interact and then get pissed that someone dare attack or do something to advance the game in their favor and you have no way to disrupt or interact with them, then yes I would say you're a bad player with bad deckbuilding skills.

Even my most durdely low powered decks don't just do nothing until turn x barring mana screw. I really don't get line of thinking but maybe bc my playgroup has had it's times where if I didn't adapt and learn to be proactive I would never win. My first few decks were just me throwing a crappy 2 card combo, some creatures in my colors and lands and calling it a day. And guess what, I never won or had a good time until my decks could match what I was up against.

 

[Crocodile]

Pre-Release 1: Open Gideon. Play U/B control/cycling. Go 3-1.
Pre-Release 2: Open Gideon. Play R/G aggro. Go 4-0-1.

A productive weekend more or less. Aside from two Harsh Mentors, the UW legend and a Nissa I already have every I need from this set <3

I think Leovold was likely designed with Tiny Leaders in mind with Legacy and Vintage as a fallback.

Yeah this is how I remember things too.

 

[Simply Sarah]

as you said, they'll still combo out at some point in the game. If you can mostly ignore the board state aside from the occasional wrath or counterspell it doesn't lead to many fun matches unless people really enjoy racing their combos against each other

I'm not sure I get what you're seeing. Yes, generally more competitive decks have a combo as the primary win condition (but usually not the only one) but that doesn't mean it's just a race. Often it means a lot of politics and reading the table to know when to try and take an action towards winning and when/how to disrupt your opponents while working around their disruption. There's often a lot of targeted removal instead of wrath effects because you generally want cheap and instant ways to remove specific issues. It's standard Magic: There are threats to remove/play around/play yourself and try and maneuver yourself to a win.

You don't need to have everything be fast combo either. People can settle upon decks that are more combat focused or whichever without completely neglecting interaction and removal. The last part is the real source of a lot of issues. When everyone only cares about playing their big scary creatures/ramping/drawing cards/using sweepers then games tend to snowball while at the same time having no answer at anyone doing the most basic combo. There's a wide area between T3 combo win decks and decks that lack instants and things that target stuff they don't control.

If people really want to play raw battlecruiser Magic then good for them. But not everyone wants that.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

my EDH group is pretty chill. Its mostly my decks that I slap together for variety, and we make fun of my one friend that uses fetches for being try hard. His deck's power level isnt even high, we just like to give each other shit

 

[Yeef]

So, according to the planeswalker deck insert, Liliana has never returned to Dominaria after her spark ignited. That might be the angle they take with the story when we return to Dominaria in 2 blocks.

 

[HK-47]

So, according to the planeswalker deck insert, Liliana has never returned to Dominaria after her spark ignited. That might be the angle they take with the story when we return to Dominaria in 2 blocks.

Now we know who will take up all the face time instead of th classic characters

 

[OnPoint]

So, according to the planeswalker deck insert, Liliana has never returned to Dominaria after her spark ignited. That might be the angle they take with the story when we return to Dominaria in 2 blocks.

She totally is the kinda girl who would leave home and never call.

Getting ready for them to reveal who or what the Raven Man is already though.

 

[Yeef]

I just hope we see Teferi.

 

[MoxManiac]

I have a UG edh deck but it's Kaseto voltron, lol.

 

[Imperfected]

What do you mean certain types of magic? While edh is more social and political than the other formats it's main goal is the same, kill your opponents before they kill you.

In this particular case, I mean hard control and denial strategies. The reason Leovold was banned is not because Leovold is an unstoppable god card that the greatest EDH minds can't possibly build around, Leovold was banned because if people wanted to play a game of Magic where they shuffle their cards and then get to do nothing while their opponent combos off, we already have like three perfectly good formats for that.

This has been consistent with EDH bans, and should be taken as a general guidance on the goals of the format for most players who abide by those bans: the point is not to ban cards purely on the basis of being "too good", it's to ban cards that facilitate strategies that are fundamentally not enjoyable for everyone else at the table.

And that seems to be what you're missing: people aren't playing EDH to have fun. A roundabout of Cyclonic Rifts constantly sweeping the board is not fun. Therefore, people argue that Cyclonic Rift should be banned. They are not arguing, "I can't beat the big bad Cyclonic Rift players!" no matter how bad that's what you want to hear.

 

[HK-47]

Funness is a garbage metric

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Funness is a garbage metric

In aggregate, yes.

EDH only works with groups of friends who "have chill" no matter what happens.

 

[red13th]

my UG EDH deck is Ezuri +1/+1 counters

 

[Firemind]

I'm personally against all those auto-include cards like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Lightning Greaves, etc.

But that's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

I play like ten artifact removal that's at least a 2-for-1 just to troll whoever plays Sol Ring t1.

 

[Santiako]

I play like ten artifact removal that's at least a 2-for-1 just to troll whoever plays Sol Ring t1.

I vandalblasted someone's Sol Ring t1 once and he went on a rant for like 10 minutes on how I had 'bad threat assessment' for not keeping that until I could overload it lol, he was salty as all hell.

 

[alternade]

Fun is subjective and you can't regulate based on it. There are legitimate oppressive cards that will never be banned because reasons. Hell Derevi literally breaks the rules of the game and noone even bats an eye at her.

 

[Imperfected]

Funness is a garbage metric

It's often difficult to quantify, but in extreme cases it becomes pretty obvious when you see it, particularly when the card is only "fun" for people whose definition of "fun" is more or less explicitly "making everyone else miserable".

Example: Shahrazad.

 

[Simply Sarah]

I vandalblasted someone's Sol Ring t1 once and he went on a rant for like 10 minutes on how I had 'bad threat assessment' for not keeping that until I could overload it lol, he was salty as all hell.

Sounds like the kind of guy that would think cycling is the worst mechanic ever.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Speaking of Commander, I just realized that Medomai the Ageless goes infinite with Identity Thief.

I kind of want to jam this into an EDH Shell, just have all the Counters/Draws/What have you

 

[Firemind]

I vandalblasted someone's Sol Ring t1 once and he went on a rant for like 10 minutes on how I had 'bad threat assessment' for not keeping that until I could overload it lol, he was salty as all hell.

Good. Getting salty just because you're trying to interact with people in a game of Magic. I live for that.