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[charlequin]

a) Standard being crappy ever since Dragons of Tarkir and the new model started up (hurting Standard attendance a LOT)
b) Blowing through mechanics at a very fast pace without letting them breathe eating up design space
c) Blowing through settings at a very fast pace requiring a lot more creative staff (aka much larger labor budget required.)

This is a list of three problems, one of which is in significant part a false correlation (the things that made Standard bad are mostly a result of bad development process rather than fundamental to the two-block world), one that's trivially solvable (just don't print 22 new mechanics or eight major mechanical themes a year), and one that they're mostly locked into now (going in and unceremoniously firing ten people from the Creative team now is just gonna blow up the single marketing vector they've had the most success with the last 2-3 years, plus hurt future product development efforts even if they cut a block.) All of these problems are less bad than the problems that led them to switch in the first place, none of which they have an alternate solution for.

Like, it's clear why building a core set that's a full, draftable set that they expect people to buy is a long-term losing proposition, right? And why it's guaranteed to be miserable for players to try to squeeze three sets out of each block idea when they've literally never done that successfully?

 

[GregLombardi]

lol, being a magic player these days is certainly an adventure.

I do like that they have experimented so much with different ways of viewing the product release landscape. I also think they have managed reprints very well. It isn't all doom and gloom, but if they are really going to up end number of sets again, or order, thats a bit crazy cakes.

 

[Ashodin]

I'm all for a Core Set that was the same every year. Just the essentials as a rigid jumping on point for players.

What I'd REALLY like is a third set block though.

Sorry charlequin, Odyssey->Torment->Judgment was my jam.

I feel the story arc just works better. Design wise they could just figure it out.

Also apparently MaRo was talking big about creature types in one of his latest Drive to Works, and how he lost the fight for Squirrels in almost every set he tried to put them in.

Then he gives a big chuckle and says "well I'll always fight for Squirrels, including in Supplemental Sets..."

SQUIRREL TRIBAL CMD17 YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST

 

[kirblar]

This is a list of three problems, one of which is in significant part a false correlation (the things that made Standard bad are mostly a result of bad development process rather than fundamental to the two-block world), one that's trivially solvable (just don't print 22 new mechanics or eight major mechanical themes a year), and one that they're mostly locked into now (going in and unceremoniously firing ten people from the Creative team now is just gonna blow up the single marketing vector they've had the most success with the last 2-3 years, plus hurt future product development efforts even if they cut a block.) All of these problems are less bad than the problems that led them to switch in the first place, none of which they have an alternate solution for.

Like, it's clear why building a core set that's a full, draftable set that they expect people to buy is a long-term losing proposition, right? And why it's guaranteed to be miserable for players to try to squeeze three sets out of each block idea when they've literally never done that successfully?

What if the core set takes place on a different plane each time!

 

[Giant Panda]

I'd hate for them to go back to three set blocks. To add on to the points made above, it'd also mean they couldn't introduce new planes while also revisiting popular planes in a timely manner.

 

[charlequin]

It isn't all doom and gloom

It's barely doom and gloom. You have a product that Hasbro is actively throwing money at because it's been so successful recently and which has been overperforming for the stuff that targets the majority of its fanbase by player numbers (e.g. the recent casual/multiplayer products have been extremely well received and are selling gangbusters), they've effectively triaged or solved some long-running issues outside the standard expansion progression (they've finally gotten to the point where they can support older formats with effective reprints), and they're potentially looking at launching an actual digital platform that'll let them increase the game's reach a lot if it comes out well.

Standard being shitty is certainly a big issue, but I mean, Standard's been shitty before, and for mostly the same reasons (printing overpowered cards with no good answers, then refusing to ban them for way too long.) Places that myopically look at Standard format health as a proxy for the game's success are going to have a very different perspective than basically anyplace else right now.

 

[Ashodin]

I actually like kirblar's idea - they don't have to be three set blocks ALL the time. I like the 3 - 2 - 2. The three set block can be the "big story" of the year, and the 2 set blocks can be the "oh hey let's check in on Ravnica" or whatever.

 

[Firemind]

I'd hate for them to go back to three set blocks. To add on to the points made above, it'd also mean they couldn't introduce new planes while also revisiting popular planes in a timely manner.

It lets the plane to breathe. Now it's basically turned into worldbuilding -> resolution in two quick sets.

 

[SigmasonicX]

It lets the plane to breathe. Now it's basically turned into worldbuilding -> resolution in two quick sets.

Six months is plenty of time, they just need to cut down on the Gatewatch, which it seems they already intend to do.

And I still don't see how three set blocks + core sets model is an easier or better solution than making small adjustments to the current model and adding a supplemental core set aimed at beginners in a similar way to the Planeswalker Decks.

 

[noquarter]

What if the core set takes place on a different plane each time!

That is what I would like. Just make it a test bed for a plane. Maybe add one mechanic and try it and get people ready for a future set. Or even use it as a chance to add a card or two to existing mechanics. More of a smorgasbord of standard with reprints as well.

I don't think the idea of having a good core set is bad, they just did very little with it and got rid of it as soon as they get they had a good reason to. The last few they did is when they finally started to do something interesting with them.

 

[HK-47]

Going back to dominaria as a two block set is depressing to think about

 

[HK-47]

Six months is plenty of time, they just need to cut down on the Gatewatch, which it seems they already intend to do.

And I still don't see how three set blocks + core sets model is an easier or better solution than making small adjustments to the current model and adding a supplemental core set aimed at beginners in a similar way to the Planeswalker Decks.

The gatewatch doesn't cause us to jump straight from introduction of plane to resolution of hastily introduced crisis.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Six months is plenty of time, they just need to cut down on the Gatewatch, which it seems they already intend to do.

And I still don't see how three set blocks + core sets model is an easier or better solution than making small adjustments to the current model and adding a supplemental core set aimed at beginners in a similar way to the Planeswalker Decks.

You make a good point. They pushed the Jacetice League at the same time they switched to the 2-set model, and the effects of both of those decisions magnify each other.

The gatewatch doesn't cause us to jump straight from introduction of plane to resolution of hastily introduced crisis.

No, but it does chew up a lot of what little space they have.

 

[Santiako]

Going back to dominaria as a two block set is depressing to think about

And what about half the cards having the gatewatch in their art/flavour. Look, Yavimaya (in the background for Nissa looking gloomy).

 

[charlequin]

I still think they have no clue how to design limited formats bottom to top. Most limited formats that had the small set released and their orders reversed have turned out worse.

I don't think you'd get a quorum on this from most people. Basically every 112 draft format ever is famously bad. There's only a very few 123 formats that tend to crack people's top lists -- mostly IPA, RGD and TPF. If we're real honest with ourselves Draft is just a better format when your whole cardpool comes from one single curated set.

What if the core set takes place on a different plane each time!

I mean, at that point how is this really different from just having two blocks? If you want to do this, just get serious about actually reducing complexity in the sets proper and sell a set of tournament staples with local creative as a deck product every fall.

I feel the story arc just works better.

People say stuff like this, but it's not actually like there was this great era of storytelling previously that was lost with this switch. KTK is one of the few blocks that actually pulled it off -- Theros had basically no story over the three actual expansions, RTR had a laughably incoherent story that wasn't reflected in the cards, Innistrad's would've worked fine as just ISD -> AVR (and same for ZEN -> ROE), etc.

Design wise they could just figure it out.

"This problem, which the literal best minds available have not solved in twenty years, can now be solved because it would be inconvenient if it couldn't." This is the Donald Trump approach to set design.

SQUIRREL TRIBAL CMD17 YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST

He also said that he had zero involvement with C17 on his blog

I don't think the idea of having a good core set is bad

It's bad inasmuch as it's a set that retailers hate, players don't care about, and nobody buys, which it's been from approximately 5th edition onward until its demise.

 

[Haly]

And what about half the cards having the gatewatch in their art/flavour. Look, Yavimaya (in the background for Nissa looking glib).

Chandra in Urbog with the spirit of Lord Windgrace behind her like a Stand.

 

[HK-47]

And what about half the cards having the gatewatch in their art/flavour. Look, Yavimaya (in the background for Nissa looking gloomy).

I can't wait for the tolaria card with a Chandra wisecrack about explosions.

 

[Giant Panda]

It lets the plane to breathe. Now it's basically turned into worldbuilding -> resolution in two quick sets.

That's not how I see it. It caused people to get worn out with the setting and themes. It is so much fresher with two blocks a year with two sets. From what I saw, a majority of players were pretty tired with Theros by Journey into Nyx and even with Tarkir by Dragons of Tarkir.

 

[Firemind]

Six months is plenty of time, they just need to cut down on the Gatewatch, which it seems they already intend to do.

And I still don't see how three set blocks + core sets model is an easier or better solution than making small adjustments to the current model and adding a supplemental core set aimed at beginners in a similar way to the Planeswalker Decks.

Just do three set blocks + Modern Masters or whatever they have lined up. Plus the yearly Commander product. The amount of work that went into designing Conspiracy 2 which got like two weeks time until the next set got released is frankly disgusting.

 

[Ashodin]

It lets the plane to breathe. Now it's basically turned into worldbuilding -> resolution in two quick sets.

Kaladesh was grossly egregious in this regard as well. Want to know how much we saw outside of Ghirapur?

We only saw the outside on the LANDS. Most of the creatures we saw are on fields, farms, and "the greenbelt" which is a convenient word for "a park in the city".

 

[sgjackson]

Interesting line in a post from Maro's tumblr where he's talking about Felidar Guardian.

I promise you behind the scenes we’re taking serious action to change how we do things. (More info on this to come soon.)

Sounds like there's definitely a behind the scenes shakeup happening.

 

[HK-47]

That's not how I see it. It caused people to get worn out with the setting and themes. It is so much fresher with two blocks a year with two sets. From what I saw, a majority of players were pretty tired with Theros by Journey into Nyx and even with Tarkir by Dragons of Tarkir.

The only two block set I haven't gotten tired of is innistrad and that's innistrad, so it's not really solving anything. Two planes in a row have basically been single cities niw as well.

 

[Imperfected]

My only problem with "letting the plane breathe" is they rarely seemed to do much with that extra wiggle room. Even in fairly legendary sets like OG Innistrad, I mean, could we have not just moved on without Avacyn Restored?

Two may be too much churn for design, but three apparently asks them for more content than they'v got, so...

 

[Supast4r]

I appreciate the solo Gideon, Champion of Justice in the sideboard. Probably one of the first planeswalkers I ever looked at and actually said out loud "What the fuck are they thinking?"

I think he's the worst planeswalker ever designed. Just a horrible card.

 

[kirblar]

The only other way to maintain it is to do current setup + a 5th core set that only comes out once every two years and takes the place of an *MA or CNS type product and has its own rotation.

 

[HK-47]

My only problem with "letting the plane breathe" is they rarely seemed to do much with that extra wiggle room. Even in fairly legendary sets like OG Innistrad, I mean, could we have not just moved on without Avacyn Restored?

Two may be too much churn for design, but three apparently asks them for more content than they'v got, so...

Avacyn restored was a bad set mechanically but thematically you don't cut it. Dark ascension is the one you could cut in that sense. I mean any set with a lack of removal and a garbage mechanic like miracles is gonna suck.

 

[MoxManiac]

I loved Core Sets. Great way to do reprints without charging $10 a pack in a masters set. Would love to see them return.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I think all of us are bringing in completely unrelated grievances and expecting a return to how things used to be to magically fix them, even if those problems were actually even worse before. Let's just drop this topic until we get something more than a name survey.

 

[Imperfected]

I think all of us are bringing in completely unrelated grievances and expecting a return to how things used to be to magically fix them. Let's just drop this topic until we get something more than a name survey.

No, make things the way they were when I was young and sexy and life was rife with possibilities, Sigma!

 

[kirblar]

I think all of us are bringing in completely unrelated grievances and expecting a return to how things used to be to magically fix them. Let's just drop this topic until we get something more than a name survey.

I'm not expecting one based on desiring it. I'm saying we're getting one based on THAT survey question + the abandonment of the twice-yearly rotation + Spring/Summer sales not getting the boost they expected.

It's exactly the move you make if you don't think the increased costs (labor, art, marketing) and externalities (shitty standard) are worth the returns you're getting.

 

[HK-47]

I loved Core Sets. Great way to do reprints without charging $10 a pack in a masters set. Would love to see them return.

The type of reprints the masters set are for are never gonna happen in core sets. They got too scared after printing thoughtseize and mutavault in a pack rat standard.

 

[Firemind]

No, make things the way they were when I was young and sexy and life was rife with possibilities, Sigma!

Hey, I just like my limited formats to be symmetrical and chronological! The fact that IPA, RGD and TPF are three of the greatest limited formats of all time only supports this!

 

[charlequin]

Sounds like there's definitely a behind the scenes shakeup happening.

I would wager some combination of a more formalized MTGO early release, some kind of external consultation (pros who skip a PT to get a specific set early, etc.) and the creation of a standalone development group that manages Standard as a whole rather than just relying on four distinct set dev teams to catch everything.

Just do three set blocks + Modern Masters or whatever they have lined up.

Literally solves none of the problems this change was implemented to solve, or actually any other problems.

My only problem with "letting the plane breathe" is they rarely seemed to do much with that extra wiggle room.

They never did anything with it. Nobody was sitting there going "boy, I love how Bladetusk Boar and Skyspear Cavalry really expand on the world of Theros," they were saying "boy it sure is impossible to tell which of these three sets any given card came from." The claustrophobia on Kaladesh was 100% a (poor, IMO) setting design decision, and one they could easily have solved without needing a third set to do it in.

It's exactly the move you make if you don't think the increased costs (labor, art, marketing) and externalities (shitty standard) are worth the returns you're getting.

The other point I'll make is that Hasbro's explicit direction is that they're spending extra on MTG as a brand right now in order to try to move successfully into the digital market, and if you try to get the Hearthstone cohort to look at a game that only changes up its creative and mechanical basis once a year you'll get laughed out of the room.

 

[MoxManiac]

The type of reprints the masters set are for are never gonna happen in core sets. They got too scared after printing thoughtseize and mutavault in a pack rat standard.

No, but there's a ton of other cool stuff that could be reprinted just fine. Like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for example (M15 reprint of the top of my head)

 

[bigkrev]

They already have cards legal in standard that are only avalible in Deckbuilders Toolkit and Welcome decks http://magiccards.info/w16/en.html

I bet you didn't know these cards were legal because Wizards kind of doesn't mention it!

They really should just have a core set again. Make it all reprints, make it an every 2 year thing. Call it 11th edition.

 

[kirblar]

They already have cards legal in standard that are only avalible in Deckbuilders Toolkit and Welcome decks http://magiccards.info/w16/en.html

I bet you didn't know these cards were legal because Wizards kind of doesn't mention it!

They really should just have a core set again. Make it all reprints, make it an every 2 year thing. Call it 11th edition.

I was going to mention that this approach has been a disaster (because no one knows they're legal!) but completely forgot to, thanks for bringing it up.

Some sort of core set is badly needed. The reason that jumps to "bye bye 2-block" is because of the rotation decision.

 

[aidan]

Sign me up for a bi-annual core set that is just a $25 box of staples you buy and get four copies each.

I get the problems with the core set, but without the plane agnostic format, it's been way too difficult for WotC to insert flavour-appropriate safety valves into formats. Plus, I always liked the way the core set reminded you of the greater multiverse by having cards in standard that weren't tied to the currently legal planes.

 

[Ashodin]

If the Essentials set is more like Living Card Games where you can always buy it no matter what and get a jump-start into Magic, I'd be down for that idea.

 

[Rafy]

What if these core/essential/prime sets are sort of bi-annual Masters sets, but for standard?

Obviously they would use the 3.99 MSRP per pack instead, but I like the idea of bringing in cards back from older sets and shaking up the meta.

Having it be draftable would be awesome as well.

I wasn't a player when the core sets were around, so this is just an uninformed opinion.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Like I mentioned, I do think there should be an "intro to drafting" set that's regularly available. Throwing out thoughts, perhaps the year's core set could be offered for draft at the same time as expert sets. For example, Core 2017 would be offered for drafts during Kaladesh and Amonkhet. The store owner and employees would play with new players and willing experienced players, while everyone else drafts the expert set. Though perhaps there would be special days for the core set draft.

A big issue they cited with core sets is that it made no sense for new players to join just one time a year. Advertising it throughout the year would help with that.

 

[bigkrev]

Speaking of "one time a year for players to jump in", when did all of you start playing Magic? I was introduced to the game with Alliances cards, but didn't really start playing till Stronghold.


I would like a Conspiracy-like product designed for 1v1. Give me new cards, give me "draft matters" cards, and give me a cohesive world, but please don't force me to play Multiplayer

 

[SigmasonicX]

First started playing while Magic 2012 came out, I believe. First spoiler season I followed was Dark Ascension. First prerelease was Born of the Gods (yup).

 

[Zocano]

I still have no idea what the story was really supposed to be in RTR. And that block I had played way more than any other.

 

[OnPoint]

First started somewhere around right before Alliances came out. Man that was so long ago.

 

[MoxManiac]

Speaking of "one time a year for players to jump in", when did all of you start playing Magic? I was introduced to the game with Alliances cards, but didn't really start playing till Stronghold.


I would like a Conspiracy-like product designed for 1v1. Give me new cards, give me "draft matters" cards, and give me a cohesive world, but please don't force me to play Multiplayer

1995, 4th Edition.

 

[Firemind]

Portal

It had some amazing art and worldbuilding.

 

[DrArchon]

I first learned how to play with 7th edition on my school's playground during recess. It was the good old days back when Thorn Elemental was the coolest card ever and Juggernaut was too good.

 

[ajf009]

I think he's the worst planeswalker ever designed. Just a horrible card.

Have you met my friend Tibalt?

 

[kirblar]

I started playing with Revised.

 

[Tunoku]

Zendikar. After summer break some school friends got into Magic and I got more addicted than them rather quickly after that. I remember opening my first Scalding Tarn and telling my buddies that it's worth a bunch of money (I think like 12-15 at the time) but not really being able to explain why. Then I took a break between New Phyrexia and Battle for Zendikar, which was a terrible idea; but once my friends got out of the game, I slowly started drifting away as well.