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Making a Murderer, Paradise Lost, The Thin Blue Line- one doesn't belong. (spoilers)

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msdstc

Incredibly Naive
I've seen a lot of these documentaries/shows/films w.e over the years, and each one is infuriating in their own way. Most recently Making a Murderer has taken the nation by storm claiming the courts have taken yet another innocent man and framed him. All of these movies proclaiming the innocence of a convicted individual have a ton in common

- Paint the the subjects in a positive light

- portray the case against the individual as heavily biased and paper thin

- vilify the prosecution team as bloodthirsty or corrupt.

There are a lot more similarities here such as coerced confessions, questionable police tactics, potentially planted evidence. Each one of them also generally does an excellent job of swaying the viewer often using subtle and not-so-subtle techniques to win you over. Luckily the internet exists and it allows you to do some research of your own. Ultimately I feel like it generally ends with the same result- it's inconclusive. If you can take anything from watching these, you can take this- The justice system is a deeply flawed, prejudiced, and dangerous system that needs a dramatic overhaul. All of this being said I just finished up one of these three, and I'm left feeling different than all of the others- certain.

The Thin Blue Line is without question the most infuriating and compelling of the bunch here. The story is the oldest, which leaves it at a disadvantage for a multitude of reasons, so I can't speak as if I know every little detail, but what is there is beyond damning of the disaster that was the case against Randall Dale Adams. An innocent man was wronged in every conceivable way, from paying off witnesses, to a 15 minute session that framed him as- no joke- Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, etc. Meanwhile the coldblooded psychopath who straight up admitted to anybody who would listen that he committed the act, was let free, because he was too young to pay for what he had done.

The corruption goes beyond just the prosecution, the judge, and the court system here as well. The officer who was witness to the whole thing flat out lied on the stand to fit the prosecutions case. It's unbelievable that anybody with half a brain could possibly sit there, objectively hear the evidence presented, and not only convict this man, but sentence him to death. Meanwhile Mr. Harris walks off scott free, continues his crime spree, and ultimately murders someone, which lead to his execution. While I'm sure there are angles I don't know, and there is evidence or testimony I may never hear, I know this is without question the most cut and dry case of innocence. Randall Adams went on to live a peaceful and quiet life and died a few years back of a brain tumor. He was without question an innocent man without a single violent incident on his record, or from my understanding ANY crime for that matter. I would like somebody to at least point me in the direction that I can try to wrap my head around how something like this can happen, because it's terrifying that this went on and undoubtedly still does.

I mention the other 2 films (and like I said there are many others), because they are probably the 2 most prominent. IMO Steven Avery is a guilty man and he fits the bill entirely from animal cruelty, to domestic abuse, to dangerous levels of anger/violence. The WM3 are likely innocent, but I'm still not 100% on them either. At the very least when you dig a little deeper beyond these documentaries you can see where the jurors and the prosecution were coming from. From the tattered past, the various testimonies, the physical evidence, etc. you can build a compelling argument, that these individuals were guilty.

At the end of the day this is more of a review/rant about the film. It is a reminder of who he was and what he represents, because honestly I hadn't even heard of this until today. I think it's important that cases like this are brought forth more often, and hopefully something in the future changes... although I sincerely doubt it.
 

Saya

Member
IMO Steven Avery is a guilty man and he fits the bill entirely from animal cruelty, to domestic abuse, to dangerous levels of anger/violence.

Why is he guilty? Where is the evidence?

The fact that he killed a cat when he was a dumb stupid teenager should not have any bearing on this latest case. He admitted and regretted he did that. The other things also should have no relevance to the case.
 

forrest

formerly nacire
Making a Murderer didn't exactly leave me feeling that Steven Avery was an innocent man wrongly convicted twice.
 

Dalek

Member
It's not up to you, the viewer, to "Scooby Doo" it. Despicable people aren't automatically guilty of a crime just because they're morally repugnant.

If a documentary points out that the accused didn't get a fair shake at the trial, then it did its job.

Why is he guilty? Where is the evidence?

The fact that he killed a cat when he was a dumb stupid teenager should not have any bearing on this latest case. He admitted and regretted he did that. The other things also should have no relevance to the case.

He's "guilty" because he's behind bars.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
It's not up to you, the viewer, to "Scooby Doo" it. Despicable people aren't automatically guilty of a crime just because they're morally repugnant.

If a documentary points out that the accused didn't get a fair shake at the trial, then it did its job.

He's "guilty" because he's behind bars.

Well it clearly points that out, and I feel the same that Steven Avery's trial had some very questionable aspects to it. That being said I feel Mr. Adams trial was FAR more biased.

Why is he guilty? Where is the evidence?

The fact that he killed a cat when he was a dumb stupid teenager should not have any bearing on this latest case. He admitted and regretted he did that. The other things also should have no relevance to the case.

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned it, because I want the thread to be about Randall Dale Adams. Commenting on that though, past incidents such as Robberies, assaults, animal cruelty, start to paint a picture of the individual, which allows us to see if the individual was capable or not. I think he's guilty, but it's not just his past that does that for me, I'm just saying if you can soak an animal in gasoline and oil, then toss it in the fire, you are capable of some very questionable things, regardless of motive.

edit-
Making a Murderer didn't exactly leave me feeling that Steven Avery was an innocent man wrongly convicted twice.

I think a lot of people left feeling that way... when you dig a little deeper to some of the facts surrounding the trial it's pretty clear the techniques the filmmakers employed in order to sway in one direction. Again all of this being said, the case against randall adams? I left feeling 100% certain he was an innocent man.
 

HORRORSHØW

Member
the focus of MaM for me was less on the guilt or innocence of avery and dassey, but more on shining a light on the tragic lack of due process in the american judicial system.

i mean, holy shit, no matter which side of the fence you sit on regarding avery and dassey's complicity in halbach's death, you cannot deny the fundamental failings during the state's investigation, interrogation, and prosecution.

and shit, i would be convicted of murder and rape too if my past was put on trial. ridiculous.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Grimløck;192599588 said:
the focus of MaM for me was less on the guilt or innocence of avery and dassey, but more on shining a light on the tragic lack of due process in the american judicial system.

i mean, holy shit, no matter which side of the fence you sit on regarding avery and dassey's complicity in halbach's death, you cannot deny the fundamental failings during the state's investigation, interrogation, and prosecution.

and shit, i would be convicted of murder and rape too if my past was put on trial. ridiculous.

I agree entirely and I think I made that pretty clear in my original post.
 

Saya

Member
He's "guilty" because he's behind bars.

Yup. Not surprised many people seem to think like that.

I wonder if there is anyone who believes the Toyota key was not planted. Because if you think it is, all the other evidence and statements should become automatically suspect too. This should be enough already to have reasonable douubt.
 
Making a Murderer didn't exactly leave me feeling that Steven Avery was an innocent man wrongly convicted twice.
He's probably a fucking asshole. But you need to have evidence that he did it beyond any reasonable doubt to convict him of the crime he is accused of.

The latest interview with his ex girlfriend gives the impression he is a scumbag and a monster (see thread).
But that still doesn't prove his guilt in this particular case.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Grimløck;192599588 said:
and shit, i would be convicted of murder and rape too if my past was put on trial. ridiculous.

Uh....what?
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
He's probably a fucking asshole. But you need to have evidence that he did it beyond any reasonable doubt to convict him of the crime he is accused of.

The latest interview with his ex girlfriend gives the impression he is a scumbag and a monster (see thread).
But that still doesn't prove his guilt in this particular case.

Unfortunately as I expected it's broken down into this, but yes I agree you can't presume guilt given a person's past, however you can use a criminal record or a person's past to get an understanding if they were capable of something. That being said it's far from a bible or a death sentence for the defendant. I agree the lawyers did an amazing job of raising reasonable doubt, and the police employed questionable tactics, without question. I'm not arguing here if the case was fair or not, I just said I think given the circumstances he is likely the one that did it, but that doesn't mean he should be in jail, because I don't know that 100%. My argument stems from the fact that the system is broken.
 
I haven't seen The Thin Blue Line forever, but it left quite the impression. The fact a man admitted guilt to no avail was mind blowing. In the end, they are each great (and infuriating) in their own special ways.
 
Unfortunately as I expected it's broken down into this, but yes I agree you can't presume guilt given a person's past, however you can use a criminal record or a person's past to get an understanding if they were capable of something. That being said it's far from a bible or a death sentence for the defendant. I agree the lawyers did an amazing job of raising reasonable doubt, and the police employed questionable tactics, without question. I'm not arguing here if the case was fair or not, I just said I think given the circumstances he is likely the one that did it, but that doesn't mean he should be in jail, because I don't know that 100%. My argument stems from the fact that the system is broken.
The system is broken. That much is clear.

Do i personally mind a fucking piece of shit rotten asshole being in jail for stuff he might not have done? Not really. But in a lot of cases it might be a completely innocent person.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
I haven't seen The Thin Blue Line forever, but it left quite the impression. The fact a man admitted guilt to no avail was mind blowing. In the end, they are each great (and infuriating) in their own special ways.

That's what is so incredible about the whole ordeal is this man straight up said he did it without any sort of coeercion. He said it to the police, he lead them to the gun. He bragged to his friends, he detailed the whole thing before the story broke. They wanted this to be on the head of somebody they could force to pay. They cost somebody else their life by letting him go, and they almost cost Randall Adams his life, in fact he was 3 days from execution.
 

EthanC

Banned
One of those (Making) is stupidly biased. It's barely a documentary and more of a love letter to hayseed murderer.
 

nick nacc

Banned
I find the backlash of Making a Murderer by people trying to come off as smart funny.


The biggest issue the documentary makes is the shit show trail. The conflicts of interest at every corner. Basically the ugliness that our court system can show. He could very well be guilty, but the procedures the law enforcement took to make sure he would get convicted are dirty af.
 

corneliusb

Neo Member
Totally agree, Thin Blue Line is a really well put together documentary like most of the output from Errol Morris. Totally infuriating to watch and clearly an inspiration for the current batch of true crime docs. I have been recommending it to friends who are into MaM but as you say it's dated a bit and that turns some folk off.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Totally agree, Thin Blue Line is a really well put together documentary like most of the output from Errol Morris. Totally infuriating to watch and clearly an inspiration for the current batch of true crime docs. I have been recommending it to friends who are into MaM but as you say it's dated a bit and that turns some folk off.

Mainly what I can say is while it definitely has its bias, there's nothing I can really read that would point towards Randall being the one who did it, there is simply nothing that points to him at all.

Making a Murderer does an excellent job of pointing out the flaws of the trial, it absolutely does, but it also IMO came off a lot more biased than the others, given the use of music, particular evidence left out, and how they just brushed over his past and portrayed Steven as this lovable hillbilly. Not that it's concrete evidence, but the amount of tesimony against his character, reads dramatically different than what the documentary portrays. Again i want to make this clear I'm not saying that means he should be in jail. For some reason people in this thread are failing to understand that and jumping down my throat. Ironic isn't it?
 

Fusebox

Banned
Most recently Making a Murderer has taken the nation by storm claiming the courts have taken yet another innocent man and framed him.

Tbh that's not what I took from MaM. What I took away is that SA isn't a nice guy who could conceivably be a killer but the MAIN crux of the documentary is just that he didn't receive a fair trial. His actual innocence or guilt is irrelevant, his trial was unfair and corrupt and most of those involved need to be investigated.
 
1. You can't hand wave the intentional burning of a cat as something a "dumb, stupid teenager" would do.

2. Did Avery kill Halbach? Probably. But it sure as hell didn't happen like the State said it did and you can't convict someone on the evidence presented in the trial (as this documentary presented it).

3. Where can one watch this 'Thin Blue Line'?
 

Captain Pants

Killed by a goddamned Dredgeling
For me the bias is so heavily towards Avery that it is hard to come away from it feeling like he is 100% innocent. I feel like there is something really dishonest about making a 'documentary' when you're approaching the subject matter with the goal of convincing your audience of something. It's part of why I enjoy Serial as a contrast to Making A Murderer. I genuinely feel like Serial is trying to find out what happened, whereas MAM is out to push an agenda. I'd feel better about Making A Murderer if the people making it gave any screen time to people in the prosecution. As is, it's a persuasive opinion piece masked as documentary and there's very little objectivity in it at all.

I was really entertained by Making A Murderer. It's great TV, and I definitely came away from it feeling like Avery and his nephew didn't get fair trials. I mostly have a problem with it when I see petitions being sent to the President asking for someone to be released from prison because they spent 10 hours watching a documentary. There's something irresponsible at work when you have a large swath of people convinced that they know all the ins and outs of a case because they watched a one sided documentary on it.

That being said, while I feel like Avery probably did it, I don't think the prosecution and the local police treated him fairly, or turned up enough evidence to prove their case. The problem is that none of us here that watched Making A Murderer were there at the trial and none of us got to see both sides of the case. It's great TV, and I think it absolutely highlights big problems with our justice system, particularly when it comes to interrogations and confessions. I just don't think it is objective enough for me at the end of the day.
 

Kyou

Member
Tbh that's not what I took from MaM. What I took away is that SA isn't a nice guy who could conceivably be a killer but the MAIN crux of the documentary is just that he didn't receive a fair trial. His actual innocence or guilt is irrelevant, his trial was unfair and corrupt and most of those involved need to be investigated.

I think the best way to put it is that Not Guilty is not the same thing as Innocent, and the documentary portrays him as Not Guilty
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
1. You can't hand wave the intentional burning of a cat as something a "dumb, stupid teenager" would do.

2. Did Avery kill Halbach? Probably. But it sure as hell didn't happen like the State said it did and you can't convict someone on the evidence presented in the trial (as this documentary presented it).

3. Where can one watch this 'Thin Blue Line'?

1. I 1000% agree. I think it's funny that people try so hard to defend that. Does that implicate him without a reasonable doubt? Absolutely not, but it's a very common tendency in the mind of a psychopath.

2. I agree he most likely did as I'm more apt to occams razor in this case, but reasonable doubt does exist , and as stated countless times, the trial was incredibly biased.

3. on netflix, and it's unbelievable. You should also watch "paradise lost" which to me was the most addicting of the bunch, and one that will leave you wondering quite a bit.
 
MaM might be biased, but I heard that the prosecution simply did not want to cooperate for the documentary. So yeah, isn't that rather odd? Can't really blame the MaM makers then.
 
Apparently a lot of evidence didn't appear in the documentary. Guilty or not the police botched this case. I just don't know what to think but I hope some further investigation takes place. So many things just don't seem to make sense.


Also, The police screwed him over in 1985 that's why the doubt in the sheriffs dept is IMO completely justified. I hope somehow there can be more closure to this.
 
I believe Avery is guilty.

However, I also believe that his trial was a fucking circus, and the police planted some evidence to ensue a conviction.

You can't have a fucked up justice system. You can't defend the system just because in this case the end result was potentially (if he is guilty) not bad.

And he 100% WAS innocent for the first crime when he sat in prison for 18 years.
 
Tbh that's not what I took from MaM. What I took away is that SA isn't a nice guy who could conceivably be a killer but the MAIN crux of the documentary is just that he didn't receive a fair trial. His actual innocence or guilt is irrelevant, his trial was unfair and corrupt and most of those involved need to be investigated.

The problem is a lot of people are really dumb and think his innocence/guilty matters. If he was guilty, why should we even care how fucked up the trial and investigation were?

And if he was guilty of the second crime, why should we care about how screwed up it was that he sat in prison 18 years for a crime he 100% did not commit?! I mean hey he burned a cat once that deserves 18 years!
 
1. I 1000% agree. I think it's funny that people try so hard to defend that. Does that implicate him without a reasonable doubt? Absolutely not, but it's a very common tendency in the mind of a psychopath.

Cruelty to Animals is indicative of Psychopathy, but he was in his late teens by that point, and were he a Psychopath you would have seen similar things prior to that. You're also tunnel visioning on 1 sign of Psychopathy, and forgetting a huge part of it. Psychopaths are generally pathological liars who refuse to take responsibility for anything--prior to 1985 SA may have done some shitty things, but he always owned up to it. The Sandra Morris case alone proves that prior to the 1985 case he was a person that generally wasn't evasive about his involvement in criminal activities.

Then there's the signs related to the TH case. Psychopaths generally are well organized, well thought out, and meticulous when it comes to committing crimes. Nothing about the TH case fits that bill if you assume SA was the one that did it. The DNA evidence in her car makes no sense, burning the body and leaving it on your property is stupid, as is leaving her car which as I said has your DNA in it. It just does not add up. Why would he tell everyone on the property that TH was coming by if he planned on killing her? Why would he make sure her employer knew she was coming by, and confirm the appointment?

Yea, SA isn't a great person, but he's either the shittiest Psychopath or just a somewhat likable idiot--I'm compelled to the believe the latter.

2. I agree he most likely did as I'm more apt to occams razor in this case, but reasonable doubt does exist , and as stated countless times, the trial was incredibly biased.

That's what the entire documentary is about. It's about showing that the justice system is flawed, and the way we handle criminal cases is just broken. That case should not have been handled by jurors from Manitowoc County, and should not have been handled in Calumet County. That alone made the case absurd. The allowing of EDTA Test Evidence for the only time in Wisconsin history, the Prosecution getting everything they wanted, the Denny Ruling--all of these things are absurd.

Like what?

A bunch of bullshit Ken Kratz used to defend himself. Stuff like them finding DNA evidence of Avery under TH's hood--which wasn't used in court because it was the result of the forensics guy not changing his gloves, a supposed "confession" Avery made before he was released in 2003 to a cellmate talking about building a "torture chamber for young women" which was completely disregarded by the Judge because the cellmate was sketchy as fuck, and some other nonsense that had little to no affect like that TH's burned phone and wallet were found in the burn barrel--which was behind the Dassey residence anyway.

I trust almost nothing Ken Kratz says because he proved every step of the way that he was a complete asshole.
 
Unfortunately as I expected it's broken down into this, but yes I agree you can't presume guilt given a person's past, however you can use a criminal record or a person's past to get an understanding if they were capable of something. That being said it's far from a bible or a death sentence for the defendant. I agree the lawyers did an amazing job of raising reasonable doubt, and the police employed questionable tactics, without question. I'm not arguing here if the case was fair or not, I just said I think given the circumstances he is likely the one that did it, but that doesn't mean he should be in jail, because I don't know that 100%. My argument stems from the fact that the system is broken.

"questionable" tactics...?

You mean illegal tactics?

How does someone as dumb as steven avery commit a murder with zero physical evidence?
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
You fucked up from the start when you did that 'one of these things just doesn't belong' shit

Can't unring that bell

It is different though. There's no planted evidence, there's no surpressed evidence, there's nothing hidden, he was plain as day innocent.

Apparently a lot of evidence didn't appear in the documentary. Guilty or not the police botched this case. I just don't know what to think but I hope some further investigation takes place. So many things just don't seem to make sense.


Also, The police screwed him over in 1985 that's why the doubt in the sheriffs dept is IMO completely justified. I hope somehow there can be more closure to this.

Agreed, a history of something like that has to be taken into consideration, just as his history of physical violence, threats, and cruel treament of the family cat.
 
A bunch of bullshit Ken Kratz used to defend himself. Stuff like them finding DNA evidence of Avery under TH's hood--which wasn't used in court because it was the result of the forensics guy not changing his gloves, a supposed "confession" Avery made before he was released in 2003 to a cellmate talking about building a "torture chamber for young women" which was completely disregarded by the Judge because the cellmate was sketchy as fuck, and some other nonsense that had little to no affect like that TH's burned phone and wallet were found in the burn barrel--which was behind the Dassey residence anyway.

I trust almost nothing Ken Kratz says because he proved every step of the way that he was a complete asshole.
Oh I know. I just wanted to know what the poster had in mind. Anything coming out of Kratz' sniveling piehole is automatically bunk in my book. As far as hood latch DNA is concerned which wasn't mentioned in the documentary, it's actually in Avery's favor. Brendan was once again lead on by detective Fassbender towards the story. Here's the transcript:
Fassbender: OK, what else did he do, he did somethin' else, you need to tell us what he did, after that car is parked there. It's extremely important. (pause) Before you guys leave that car.
Brendan: That he left the gun in the car.
Fassbender: That's not what I'm thinkin' about. He did something to that car. He took the plates and he, I believe he did something else in that car. (pause).
Brendan: I don't know.
Fassbender: OK. Did he, did he, did he go and look at the engine, did he raise the hood at all or anything like that? To do something to the car?
Brendan: Yeah.
Fassbender: What was that? (pause)
W: What did he do, Brendan?
W: It's OK, what did he do?
Fassbender: What did he do under the hood, if that's what he did? (pause)
Brendan: I don't know what he did, but I know he went under.
Fassbender: He did raise the hood? (Brendan nods "yes") You remember that?
Brendan: Yeah.
RAV4, Hood, Latch, etc, all the important objects are brought up by Fassbender and Brendan as usual tries to play the guessing game.
 
It is actually kind of weird. Avery and Dassey apparently both have IQs of 70. But Dassey seemed significantly more challenged. Watching him being interrogated was painful.
 

Dalek

Member
Not selling it any more than you are. The fact that you can't cope with a contrary opinion is pathetic.

I can cope with the fact that some people think Aliens exist. I also call them out on it. If someone thinks that this trial was fair then I call them out on it.
 
It is actually kind of weird. Avery and Dassey apparently both have IQs of 70. But Dassey seemed significantly more challenged. Watching him being interrogated was painful.

I suspect that has to do with changes in the IQ scales used--Avery's was from the late 70's and Dassey's would have been from the early 2000's. Brendan was definitely slower than Avery, if they were using the same scale I'd imagine Avery would be around 80 and Dassey closer to 60.
 

UFO

Banned
I don't understand what the takeaway from this thread is supposed to be. You think Avery is guilty? You couldn't post that in the MaM thread?
 

hawk2025

Member
Ok, here's a question:

Why would filmmakers use deceptive and manipulative techniques willingly to help someone they believe that, after analyzing 28 years of evidence and history, is a rapist and murderer?

Not selling it any more than you are. The fact that you can't cope with a contrary opinion is pathetic.


...said the person that has moved the goalposts dozens of times, and never once dealed with the direct questions and relevsnt rebuttals under pressure.

You are as transparent as they come.
 
I think a lot of people left feeling that way... when you dig a little deeper to some of the facts surrounding the trial it's pretty clear the techniques the filmmakers employed in order to sway in one direction.

I think it left a lot of people thinking he wasn't guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Which the facts and evidence of the trial do support.

There is a pro Steven bias in the documentary. Mostly through showcasing a lot of the human drama of the Avery family. The segment's with Steven's mother and father particularly. But I disagree completely with the assertion that this is some massively biased or deceitful doc. The best arguments from the defense and the prosecution were absolutely included.

When you dig deeper into the the supposed "excluded facts" you find out most of them are spin if not outright misinformation and lies. Particularly anything Ken Kratz goes on about.
 
It is different though. There's no planted evidence, there's no surpressed evidence, there's nothing hidden, he was plain as day innocent.

If you wanted to make a thread about Thin Blue Line, you should've, instead you went the comparative route, so that's what this is going to be about.

And now that EthanC is here doing his patented Sherlock Bullshit Impression, we'll never escape
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
If you wanted to make a thread about Thin Blue Line, you should've, instead you went the comparative route, so that's what this is going to be about.

And now that EthanC is here doing his patented Sherlock Bullshit Impression, we'll never escape

LOL the MaM defense force is so offended here. The thread was made in a LTTP fashion on the thin blue line, which YES does deserve its own thread. It strongly compares to MaM, and Paradise lost, which both present that the trial was biased and unfair. My point was that both leave questions unanswered, thin blue line is the first one I've seen that left no stone unturned.

This couldn't have been said in the OT?

it's not about MaM primarily, people chose to extract that given it's a hot stove topic right now, and people are offended when you don't agree with absolutely everything they do.

I think it left a lot of people thinking he wasn't guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Which the facts and evidence of the trial do support.

There is a pro Steven bias in the documentary. Mostly through showcasing a lot of the human drama of the Avery family. The segment's with Steven's mother and father particularly. But I disagree completely with the assertion that this is some massively biased or deceitful doc. The best arguments from the defense and the prosecution were absolutely included.

When you dig deeper into the the supposed "excluded facts" you find out most of them are spin if not outright misinformation and lies. Particularly anything Ken Kratz goes on about.

I left saying there's reasonable doubt. I've said that so many times in this thread have I not? I've said the trial was unfair. There's definitely reasonable doubt, in this case and in the WM3 case, however there is no reasonable doubt in the thin blue line, he just flat out didn't do it, and there's nothing that says he did.

By digging deeper I mean the fact that the guy didn't accidentily toss the cat "over" the fire, I mean that he soaked it in gasoline and threw it into the fire with the intent to kill it. I meant with the testimony of people close to him about who he is as a person, which the documentary glosses over, that's a fact. It doesn't change the evidence, and a lot of it is obtained in strange/illegal fashion and can be questioned, but it still exists that he saw her last, he set up the appt., he has a violent past, he's threatened to kill numerous people, etc. same with the WM3 in that Damien echols had a rap sheet, proclaimed himself homicidal, mocked the grieving families, gave inconsistent testimony and alibies, etc.

None of that stuff happens in TTBL. I wanted to bring up this particular case as a reminder that not only does it happen, but it happens on far shakier ground, and people have been put away for far less.


edit- also to the average viewer, the needle hole on the top of the vial is considered strange practice... dig deeper and it's not. The seals being broken? Yes, but they had somebody ready to testify that she was the one who took the sample. I'm sure more often than not stashed samples like this unfortunately are tampered with, which further pushes the truth that the system is severely flawed. In the doc, they present this as some sort of smoking gun moment that something strange is going on, when it was easily rebutted by the prosecution.

edit edit- also the calling her after she had left is unexplained as well. does it prove anything? absolutely not, but it is questionable.
 

methane47

Member
I just binged the whole Avery case yesterday.
One of the things that got me the MOST UPSET Was the hole in the blood test tube.
COME ON!!! And despite originally the FBI saying that there is no way they can run the test for EDTA before the court case is done, all of a sudden without any kind of independant verification FBI comes up with an EDTA test within a week or two.

Also in the TH case, the city police were supposed to stay AWAY from the investigation and yet.. ALL THE EVIDENCE was found by the same bunch of officers... That slimey officer Lenk is one lucky guy..

Also a few days after TH is reported missing. And 2 days before they find the car on Avery's property.. Freaking officer Coulhorn calls in the dispatcher... and gives the dispatcher a license plate number. And the dispatcher says, that the plate is for a missing person. Why exactly did Coulhorn randomly decide to call in and GIVE SPECIFICALLY the license plate number for a car that belonged to a missing person.
Sounds like he was staring directly at the car to me.

There was soooo much craziness in the case... its unbelievable that it didn't pass the "reasonable doubt" limit.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
I just binged the whole Avery case yesterday.
One of the things that got me the MOST UPSET Was the hole in the blood test tube.
COME ON!!! And despite originally the FBI saying that there is no way they can run the test for EDTA before the court case is done, all of a sudden without any kind of independant verification FBI comes up with an EDTA test within a week or two.

Also in the TH case, the city police were supposed to stay AWAY from the investigation and yet.. ALL THE EVIDENCE was found by the same bunch of officers... That slimey officer Lenk is one lucky guy..

Also a few days after TH is reported missing. And 2 days before they find the car on Avery's property.. Freaking officer Coulhorn calls in the dispatcher... and gives the dispatcher a license plate number. And the dispatcher says, that the plate is for a missing person. Why exactly did Coulhorn randomly decide to call in and GIVE SPECIFICALLY the license plate number for a car that belonged to a missing person.
Sounds like he was staring directly at the car to me.

There was soooo much craziness in the case... its unbelievable that it didn't pass the "reasonable doubt" limit.

JUST posted my edit.

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-the-blood-vial-in-the-steven-avery-case-.php

This is exactly what I mean by bias in the documentary. This was shot down very quick.


edit--

blood_transfer_devices.jpg


also a good piece to show bias, given the attorney's line "they don't do that", is unequivocally false. I don't think he meant to lie, I think he misunderstood. The needle hole is how these things work, the part that's "weird" is that the seal is broken.
 

methane47

Member
JUST posted my edit.

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-the-blood-vial-in-the-steven-avery-case-.php

This is exactly what I mean by bias in the documentary. This was shot down very quick.

One thing in a sea of doubt.

- The police searching the house for days and only on the day when Lenk wasn't been monitored. all of a sudden he finds the Key.
- Claiming that TH was killed in the garage, but not a single spec of blood was found anywhere in the garage.
- TH's blood in the car, If she was killed in the garage, why put the body in the back of the car, to transport her 5 feet away to the burn pit.
- Coulhorns 2 day early call in of the license place
- Police claimed Lenk wasn't at the scene when the car was found, but somehow despite never logging in, he logged out from the scene.
- City police despite being told to stay away from the evidence, were the ones who found the most damning pieces.
- Not finding any thing in the garage, and randomly going back and lo and behold, magic bullet just laying on the ground
- The chemist testing the bullet admits to cross contamination, decides to give a positive ID for TH anyways.
- Avery who managed to clean up every single spec of blood at the scene of the crime, forgets to clean up a blood smear next to the ignition?
- Avery who was just using the car crusher the day before they cordoned off his property, decides to crush cars, but NOT the car of the chick he just supposedly killed?

These are just off the top of my head... doesn't any of these things give you some reasonable doubt?
 
LOL the MaM defense force is so offended here. The thread was made in a LTTP fashion on the thin blue line, which YES does deserve its own thread. It strongly compares to MaM, and Paradise lost, which both present that the trial was biased and unfair. My point was that both leave questions unanswered, thin blue line is the first one I've seen that left no stone unturned.

What is this offended nonsense?

You wanted to make a thread about Thin Blue Line, but you brought another show into it and basically drew a line in the sand on it. Given that it's a hot button topic right now, you can't be silly enough to think people wouldn't want to discuss that instead.

Your intentions and your OP basically conflict with each other.
 
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