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[The Adder]

Marie Mills held her 77-year-old father, who had collapsed outside in a Washington street. She screamed for help.

A passerby rushed across the street to bang on the door of a fire station, knowing that firefighters are trained to provide emergency medical help.

But they wouldn't leave the station.

The same thing happened when two more people tried to summon the firefighters for assistance, Mills says.

"We looked across the street at the fire station. There was a firefighter that was actually standing against the fire apparatus," she told CNN affiliate WJLA. "Everybody started trying to wave him over." But the firefighter said he had to be dispatched first.

"I even ran to the curb and said, 'Are you going to help me or let my dad die?'" said Mills.

Later, after an ambulance finally arrived, Cecil Mills died at a hospital. He had suffered an apparent heart attack.

An investigation is under way and, so far, no officials are publicly challenging Mills' version of events.

"It's an outrage," Washington Mayor Vincent Gray said at a news conference. "I was absolutely furious."

He said he apologized to Marie Mills for "what appeared to be dereliction," DC news station WTTG reported.

"Those who failed to respond as they should -- they will be held accountable, period," Gray vowed.

In comments Thursday to CNN, Gray said he has "taken a lot of time with it."

The investigation is "being done as rapidly as we possibly can," he added.

The D.C. Fire and Emergency Medical Services Department told CNN it is investigating the incident, which took place along the 1300 block of Rhode Island Avenue on Saturday.

"Our duty is to respond to all requests for emergency assistance. If it is determined that proper protocols were not followed at the conclusion of our investigation, then appropriate action will be taken," spokesman Tim Wilson said.

The protocol is in question because, according to the Mills family, those who asked for help at the fire station were told to call 911.

Calls to 911 were placed, but a mix-up with the address delayed an ambulance, said Washington Council member Tommy Wells.

"Two things happened," he said. "One was that no one came out of the fire house to help this gentleman. The other is the ambulance that was dispatched was dispatched to the wrong place. This was a number of fiascos."

Paul Quander, deputy mayor for public safety, said a "very new, probationary employee" was at the facility. The employee's first response should be "to ask a senior person, and we believe that was done," he said, according to WTTG. "The question now is what did that senior person say? What did that person do? Did they follow protocols and procedures?"

There are no protocols that would prevent fire personnel from helping those in need, Quander told CNN Thursday. "These are people who run into burning buildings. They work in the most hazardous conditions imaginable.

"They cross the streets, they cross highways to get to people. It is understood. It is common. This is why it is so troubling that we did not take the appropriate action in this case. It's right across the street."

"It's hard to get your arms around" the idea that this took place, he added.

Lt. Kellene Davis was the officer in charge of the station at the time of the incident, WTTG reports.

Davis did not respond immediately to an e-mail Thursday from CNN, and a call to a phone number listed for her was not answered.

Also Thursday, a spokesman said that two employees of the D.C. Fire and Emergency Medical Services Department have been suspended with pay in the wake of the incident.

"I cannot say who they were because it is a personnel matter and an ongoing investigation, but I can tell you that neither of them was the probationary firefighter involved in the incident," said Keith St. Clair, with the office of the deputy mayor for public safety.

The employees were working at the station, he said.

Cecil Mills, a lifelong Washington resident, worked for the Department of Parks and Recreation.

His daughter, in mourning, had kind words for the mayor's handling of the matter. "I appreciate how seriously he is taking this because it never should have happened," she told WTTG.

Marie Mills wasn't immediately available Thursday when contacted by CNN.

The firefighters' union said the incident simply should never have happened.

"We need to find out why it did occur and make sure it never happens again," said Ed Smith, president of the DC Fire Fighters Association, in a statement reported by WTTG.

He added that on the union's behalf, "I offer Mr. Mills' family a sincere apology."

Source

 

[Dead Man]

This is the shit that happens when you tell people to only follow the exact procedure in the book. They might have been worried about getting in trouble if they were dispatched to another site but were busy helping the man. Of course, good comms should have prevented that, looks like that was fucked up too.

 

[dan2026]

Bizarre.

What emergency service professional (or indeed any human that could help) would sit back and do nothing?

Utterly bizarre.

 

[heliosRAzi]

This is the shit that happens when you tell people to only follow the exact procedure in the book. They might have been worried about getting in trouble if they were dispatched to another site but were busy helping the man. Of course, good comms should have prevented that, looks like that was fucked up too.

Basically. Sucks though.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Bizarre.

What emergency service professional (or indeed any human that could help) would sit back and do nothing?

Utterly bizarre.

One that has seen a colleague get fucked over on procedural bullshit (In other words, a great deal of them).

 

[dan2026]

One that has seen a colleague get fucked over on procedural bullshit (In other words, a great deal of them).

No excuse, My brother in law is a fireman and just leaving someone to die like this is unthinkable.

Like the Fire Chief said, there is no protocols that would stop them helping a person in need.

 

[OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather]

Bureaucracy at its finest.

 

[otapnam]

There was an incident in the sf bay area where a person suffering from some mental issues was out on Beach about to go under and the local fire department wouldn't go in due to the protocol stating it was up to another agency like coast guard whos trained for the water. There was alot of outrage - they kind of just watched while a teenager went out and tried to save him

 

[IdreamofHIME]

There's some crazy red tape involved in these services.

Reminds me of the story here where an an ambulance crew were having their lunch break 500 yards away from a house with a reported heart attack, but they were never alerted because they were officially on a break and instead a crew from 15 miles away was called and the woman died.

Caused a shitstorm here.

Here's the original story
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11673344

Here it says the crew refused to attend because they were on a break, but it was later revealed that dispatch just never told them about the indecent.

 

[SneakyStephan]

One that has seen a colleague get fucked over on procedural bullshit (In other words, a great deal of them).

There's always one...

 

[gribbles]

What emergency service professional (or indeed any human that could help) would sit back and do nothing?

A scumbag? Just because someone works in an emergency/health position doesn't necessarily mean they're a good person. I've encountered plenty of doctors, for example, who I would classify as scumbags.

 

[TAJ]

Blind adherence to rules is steadily becoming more common. Take carding for alcohol... Not too long ago it was at the cashiers' discretion. Now it's damn near impossible for a fucking 70yo to avoid breaking out their ID.

 

[ZealousD]

Every human being on the planet is capable of and definitely does make mistakes.

I know it's really easy to get angry about it when lives are on the line, but when you save lives for a living, I have to imagine it's just as easy to fall into the trap of the daily grind.

 

[PsychBat!]

One that has seen a colleague get fucked over on procedural bullshit (In other words, a great deal of them).

God damn, man.

 

[KHarvey16]

Blind adherence to rules is steadily becoming more common.

What rule?

 

[Madness]

Adherence to strict rules in an overly litigious society is the cause for something like this but even then it's inexcusable someone won't cross a street to save a life. Disgusting. I hope they took a good hard look at this situation and the people who stood around, look in the mirror and wonder why they even became firemen.

 

[Kettch]

This is the shit that happens when you tell people to only follow the exact procedure in the book. They might have been worried about getting in trouble if they were dispatched to another site but were busy helping the man. Of course, good comms should have prevented that, looks like that was fucked up too.

Normally I would agree, but the article seems to lean toward there not being any rules against helping someone without a dispatch. Seems to be more a case of the firefighter not knowing the exact procedure.

 

[Dead Man]

Normally I would agree, but the article seems to lean toward there not being any rules against helping someone without a dispatch. Seems to be more a case of the firefighter not knowing the exact procedure.

The article says he called a superior.

Paul Quander, deputy mayor for public safety, said a "very new, probationary employee" was at the facility. The employee's first response should be "to ask a senior person, and we believe that was done," he said, according to WTTG. "The question now is what did that senior person say? What did that person do? Did they follow protocols and procedures?"

The question should be why the superior had the wrong understanding of the protocol.

 

[Professor Lich]

Trying to remember, isn't there some clause or law that protects(or forbids) nurses to assist people while in public?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Blind adherence to rules is steadily becoming more common. Take carding for alcohol... Not too long ago it was at the cashiers' discretion. Now it's damn near impossible for a fucking 70yo to avoid breaking out their ID.

You don't exactly pay a minimum wage to a cashier for out of the box thinking

Trying to remember, isn't there some clause or law that protects(or forbids) nurses to assist people while in public?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

 

[BHK3]

I rather lose my job going against 'procedures and rules' knowing I saved someones life.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Criminals

 

[Professor Lich]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

Thanks.

I feel like something like this should be covered for emergency workers. Then again, who knows. This just sucks.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I rather lose my job going against 'procedures and rules' knowing I saved someones life.

Chances are pretty good no ones life would have been saved here. The man likely would have died anyways.

As shocking as this news story might be, it's an isolated episode that's being reacted to appropriately. Does not seem like much of a news story beyond that.

 

[Kieli]

I'm glad not too many people have gone full-dumbass and condemned all firefighters for the actions of one person.

I still have the utmost respect for these guys who risk their lives everyday.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I rather lose my job going against 'procedures and rules' knowing I saved someones life.

Pretty much, aren't these like supposed to be "heroes" or something.

 

[Kieli]

Pretty much, aren't these like supposed to be "heroes" or something.

They are as far as I'm concerned. What this one man chose to do does not tarnish my overwhelming positive perception of firefighters.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I know nothing about emergency health procedures, but could they have done anything for a man having a fatal heart attack?

 

[Kieli]

I know nothing about emergency health procedures, but could they have done anything for a man having a fatal heart attack?

I wish he tried, at least. : |

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

It seems that some of you are mistakenly taking my earlier response as some defense or justification for what happened. It wasn't. It was simply an answer to the question of "What kind of person would sit back and do nothing?"

What rule?

It doesn't necessarily have to be an actual rule on the books: ignorance of procedure (And the fear to operate outside of procedure) is enough to cause inaction.

 

[Javaman]

Christ, that's terrible. I'm an Emergency Medical Responder and that is just ridiculous that he didn't go. Usually fire fighters are also trained to the same level as EMR (A step down from EMT). Legally I don't think he is required to respond unless he begins care (Which can be as early as scene size up) but morally that's pathetic. He more than likely had access to an AED which might or might not have saved the guy's life.

http://theemtspot.com/2009/06/23/what-is-the-duty-to-act/

Here are some common situational questions:

What if I’m a volunteer working for an ambulance company or a fire service? Volunteer are not generally recognized as having a duty to act. If you aren’t receiving pay or benefits for your service (remuneration) then your acts remain a voluntary choice and not a legal obligation.

What if I’m not on the clock but I am in uniform? While your failure to act in an emergency may reflect poorly on your organization and stir some public outrage, there is no legal tenant that links your attire to your duty to act. The law could basically care less what your wearing, they care if your being compensated.

What if I receive some compensation other than money for my service? This is where the law gets fuzzy. What does or does not meet the definition of remuneration or compensation (depending on the wording of the code) may ultimately need to be determined by the court.

Some common forms of compensation are occasionally addressed in the actual legal text. For instance here in Colorado (USA), Ski resort volunteers who receive ski passes for compensation, but not money, are still protected under good samaritan protection and do not have a duty to act.

Does this mean that I can’t be sued for not providing care if I’m not on duty? No. This is a common misconception. You can be sued for just about anything. This means that you are unlikely to be found guilty of a crime if you are sued.

 

[Javaman]

I know nothing about emergency health procedures, but could they have done anything for a man having a fatal heart attack?

At the training level of most firefighters (EMR to EMT) about all they can do is CPR, use an AED, give oxygen and assess the patient. Depending on what caused the cardio problem it may or may not have helped. AEDs only shock 2 different types of heart arrhythmia, IIRC- ventricular fibrillation and tachycardia fibrillation. One is where the heart just twitches and the other a rapid heartbeat. Neither one allows the heart to relax enough to fill with blood.

At the very least though, CPR would have helped maintain the guy's condition until further help could get there with more advanced life saving equipment and drugs.

Thanks.

I feel like something like this should be covered for emergency workers. Then again, who knows. This just sucks.

They are but it varies by state.

http://www.heartsafeam.com/pages/faq_good_samaritan

1. What is the purpose of the Good Samaritan Law?

The purpose of the Good Samaritan Law is to protect individuals that assist a victim during a medical emergency. Most Good Samaritan laws are created specifically for the general public. The law assumes that there is no medically trained person available to assist the victim. Since the Good Samaritan typically does not have medical training, the law protects him or her from being liable from injury or death caused to the victim during a medical emergency.

2. Who is protected by the Good Samaritan Law?

Each law protects different individuals. A general layperson is protected under the Good Samaritan laws as long as he or she has good intentions to aid the victim to the best of his or her ability during a medical emergency. Under some Good Samaritan Laws, as long as medical personnel, such as doctors, nurses, or medical responders, are following normal proceeders, they too will be proctected under the Good Samaritan laws. Each law has specific guidelines.

3. Does the victim or the victim's family have any rights against a responder that causes injuries or death?

The victim or the victim's family does have rights if malicious intent was committed during the medical emergency. If there was no malicious intent, then the individual who aided the victim should be covered under the Good Samaritan Law for that state.

4. Does my state have a Good Samaritan Law?

Every state has a Good Samaritan law or act to protect individuals that aid a victim during a medical emergency. Please review your state's Good Samaritan Law or Act below.

One thing you have to be very careful about before you start helping someone is to get permission otherwise you can be sued for battery. Once you start caring for someone you can only hand them off to equal or higher trained people otherwise you can be sued for abandonment. That's one reason doctors rarely stop at accidents. Once they begin care they would need to ride with them to the hospital to transfer care since they can't release to the EMTs or Paramedics. If the patient refuses treatment you need to get a signed form stating that. If they refuse to sign it you have to get one done by witnesses. You really have to watch your step in sue friendly states.

 

[IrishNinja]

^pretty thorough, you work in the field Javaman?

I know nothing about emergency health procedures, but could they have done anything for a man having a fatal heart attack?

Java said it pretty well, but it depends on your county. many major cities are pushing for firefighter-paramedics, in which case yeah, if there's a medic & ALS equipment on the truck, advance services could've been provided (for stabilization only though, you can't usually transport from the engine). at the least though, it's doubtful that they weren't CPR certified or had an O2 tank there at the station, both of which would've at least improved his odds. Regardless though, crushing story.

 

[Neogaffan]

There was an incident in the sf bay area where a person suffering from some mental issues was out on Beach about to go under and the local fire department wouldn't go in due to the protocol stating it was up to another agency like coast guard whos trained for the water. There was alot of outrage - they kind of just watched while a teenager went out and tried to save him

I remembered when that shit happen, didn't help the city admin went ultra cheap to no renew water rescuing certification for firefighters and police

 

[neorej]

It's fine to blame bureaucracy, but it takes a special kind of asshole to just stand there and watch a man die, knowing you can help.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

I rather lose my job going against 'procedures and rules' knowing I saved someones life.

Yeah cause that pays the bills.

Don't you guys have some crazy laws whereby a people could be sued for trying to help if they hurt the person if he survived or could possibly be blamed for his death if they didn't survive?

He is a Firefighter not a Paramedic.

 

[The Adder]

Yeah cause that pays the bills.

Don't you guys have some crazy laws whereby a people could be sued for trying to help if they hurt the person if he survived or could possibly be blamed for his death if they didn't survive?

He is a Firefighter not a Paramedic.

Firefighters in most US cities are also trained EMRs.

 

[Cipherr]

There's always one...

Im not sure he is defending the action there man. Calm down.

 

[Poltergust]

Yeah cause that pays the bills.

What kind of attitude is that? A human's life is worth far more than your next paycheck. That's not even beginning to go into the fact that the memory of not even trying to save someone's life when you were fully capable to do so would haunt you for the rest of your life.

 

[Scalemail Ted]

I wonder if it was a fear of a potential lawsuit which kept the firefighter from getting involved. I would assume that a firefighter whom is "dispatched" is legally protected by the city in the event that injury or death occur while servicing the call. If he were to run across the street on his own, without being officially dispatched, and if the injured man still died or otherwise remained gravely injured; would the firefighter still have the same legal protections? Or in other words, by responding, could he now be opening himself up to being held legally responsible for this case? If he were to respond and help but the man still died could the firefighter now be held negligible? Does anyone know if a firefighter is afforded the same legal protections while dispatched and not dispatched?

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Yeah cause that pays the bills.

Don't you guys have some crazy laws whereby a people could be sued for trying to help if they hurt the person if he survived or could possibly be blamed for his death if they didn't survive?

He is a Firefighter not a Paramedic.

Damn sad story. I think that it would be hard for me to ignore the cries of someone screaming desperately in my face to help their family member, even though I know dick about first aid, I would at least take a leisurely jog over there to see if there was anything I could do.

I would hope that's not what defines professional: the ability to ignore all human empathetic instinct because they see tragedy all the time. To put an administrational admonishment--likely not a career ending one, or the vague possibility of a court case materialising--above leaving your stoop and wandering over to take a gander at that person dying in the street.

The rulebook is fucked if it inspires that kind of coldness, to not even consider utilising a skillset in which you are regularly trained. I would say that those professionals are equally fucked, but maybe that's what seeing death as a regular occurrence does to a person? I hope not but it would certainly explain a lot of these occurrences with the emergency services. I wonder if it plays on thier conscience?

 

[strafer]

Hope those firefighters die in a fire.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

.

Dooooood!

 

[strafer]

Dooooood!

What? I can't help but to feel this way.

Okay, it might be little harsch but dammit, they failed to save a civilian, and worse they didn't do shit.

Just stood there like..whatever.

 

[Javaman]

^pretty thorough, you work in the field Javaman?



Java said it pretty well, but it depends on your county. many major cities are pushing for firefighter-paramedics, in which case yeah, if there's a medic & ALS equipment on the truck, advance services could've been provided (for stabilization only though, you can't usually transport from the engine). at the least though, it's doubtful that they weren't CPR certified or had an O2 tank there at the station, both of which would've at least improved his odds. Regardless though, crushing story.

Not in the healthcare business, but at a manufacturing plant. They send a hand full of employees through the training classes, probably for insurance purposes. I'm supposedly covered through their insurance while I'm at work, but I'm not sure about when I'm out and about. I definitely have a duty to act if someone at work gets injured or sick. If I don't show up and their condition worsens or I do show up and do the wrong thing {like give aspirin to someone that has a headache... Which turnes out to be a bleeding stroke!} There's a good chance the family would come for me for killing their loved one. In the training you learn very specific things you can do to treat certain symptoms and you need to do those exact things. Diagnosing medical problems is extremely tough and we shouldn't be doing it anyway, so all we can and should do is get as much info from the patient or coworkers as we can before the health deteriates. While waiting on EMS of course. States have different scope of practices for the different levels of training. In SC we can use oral airway but not nasal. We can do manual spinal stabilization but not use a c-coller or backboard.

An interesting thing popped up the other day in fire brigade training. We can use a backboard to move someone, but only if we are active in that role and not both. You NEVER want to move someone unless theres legitiment danger though. Oncoming traffic, chemical spill, smoke/fire. You've got to use your own judgement becauses moving someone can make their injuries much worse and is an easy way to get sued.


Just to put it into perspective, EMRs need roughly 51 hours of training (8 of those were just about the cya legal stuff!!}
EMTs are 120-150hrs.
Paramedics need 1200-1800 hours!

If you're ever in serious trouble, hope that a paramedic is on the ambulance.

This is a pretty neat list of what the different levels of training are allowed to do.
http://www.scdhec.gov/health/ems/cskills.pdf

 

[Dead Man]

Not in the healthcare business, but at a manufacturing plant. They send a hand full of employees through the training classes, probably for insurance purposes. I'm supposedly covered through their insurance while I'm at work, but I'm not sure about when I'm out and about. I definitely have a duty to act if someone at work gets injured or sick. If I don't show up and their condition worsens or I do show up and do the wrong thing {like give aspirin to someone that has a headache... Which turnes out to be a bleeding stroke!} There's a good chance the family would come for me for killing their loved one. In the training you learn very specific things you can do to treat certain symptoms and you need to do those exact things. Diagnosing medical problems is extremely tough and we shouldn't be doing it anyway, so all we can and should do is get as much info from the patient or coworkers as we can before the health deteriates. While waiting on EMS of course. States have different scope of practices for the different levels of training. In SC we can use oral airway but not nasal. We can do manual spinal stabilization but not use a c-coller or backboard.

An interesting thing popped up the other day in fire brigade training. We can use a backboard to move someone, but only if we are active in that role and not both. You NEVER want to move someone unless theres legitiment danger though. Oncoming traffic, chemical spill, smoke/fire. You've got to use your own judgement becauses moving someone can make their injuries much worse and is an easy way to get sued.


Just to put it into perspective, EMRs need roughly 51 hours of training (8 of those were just about the cya legal stuff!!}
EMTs are 120-150hrs.
Paramedics need 1200-1800 hours!

If you're ever in serious trouble, hope that a paramedic is on the ambulance.

This is a pretty neat list of what the different levels of training are allowed to do.
http://www.scdhec.gov/health/ems/cskills.pdf

Jesus, being an ambo takes a 3 year undergraduate degree here.