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[EatChildren]

Interview with Fabrice Condominas, Andromeda's producer, on No Man's Sky's influence and Andromeda's background.

FINDER: Between Mass Effect 3 and Andromeda, we saw the release of No Man’s Sky. I am wondering if BioWare was influenced at all by what Hello Games achieved with its game?

Yes, obviously we are looking at what else is happening in the industry overall. In the specific case of No Man’s Sky, at the time it was released, we were already deep in development. But we noticed that it was very focused on procedural worlds and we tried that, actually, over a year. Our conclusion at the time was that it wasn’t for us in the sense that it wasn’t for the type of game we were doing. Because all the content we build we try and make to a high quality, but when we tried procedurally generated content we never reached the level of quality we wanted.

At the same time, for the industry as a whole, we were fairly excited that people were trying it. I hope the Hello Games guys land back on their feet as they took a lot of risk and have been criticised a lot. But I think there is something fundamentally interesting about No Man’s Sky that can help the industry move forward. Again, even if it is not quite for us yet, it was still interesting.

I think the biggest thing No Man’s Sky showed to the industry is that [for gamers] the importance they place on the narrative and the quality of the writing has raised significantly, which is great news for BioWare as we push for that quality. We’re storytellers because we love stories. So the more the industry goes in that direction, the happier we are, even just as players.

This aligns with the survey leak from early-mid 2015, where the following was cited as a feature in Mass Effect 4.

Tempest Starship: Pilotable ship to discover 100s of solar systems. Customisable with trophies/loot/photos taken through the galaxy. Transition between flying ship, to landing on planet, to driving Mako, to getting out on foot, all seamless with no loading screens.
Planets: 100s of surfaces to explore, for discovering places to colonise, and alien vaults/outputs to conquer.

This is echoed by the first major Game Informer cover story on Andromeda, where in the interview BioWare note they prototyped a pilotable Tempest, but could not get it working as intended for the final build.

 

[tuxfool]

the importance they place on the narrative and the quality of the writing has raised significantly, which is great news for BioWare as we push for that quality.

*cough*

...though I suppose pushing isn't the same as getting.

 

[Lime]

Too bad they didn't spend that time or technology on creating more than one single face for the Asari.

 

[Parham]

Guess I need to post this again since there are some people who seem to have already forgotten after 2 page. Wow, how the mind slips!

"Allegedly"

Opening admitting to sexually assaulting someone(then banning anyone who called him out for it)

Posting revenge porn with their real full names then another admin(a now jailed pedophile) printed the photos and jacked off over them and sent it to the boyfriend.

You're right, how can we even know if he's guilty or not? HMMMM

Also:

 

[Renekton]

Maybe they need to heavily reduce the design scope, get an engine with better workflow, and focus on bread and butter. It will be ME2 all over again but it's a start.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Because all the content we build we try and make to a high quality

*ahem*

 

[Gator86]

*ahem*

They tried at least. I guess? We need a behind the scenes for Andromeda. I'm guessing a good chunk of people are curious how it wound up launching like it did.

 

[Papercuts]

Had the feeling the tried something like this. The way you traverse the galaxy map and have the areas showing through the Tempest windows seems like a remnant of that.

 

[watershed]

It makes sense that procedural generation couldn't deliver what they were after. Its just disappointing that their more hand crafted approach ended up in a Mass Effect game/aesthetic that feels very by the numbers for the franchise.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

They tried at least. I guess? We need a behind the scenes for Andromeda. I'm guessing a good chunk of people are curious how it wound up launching like it did.

"Today, on a very special and very dark episode of noclip..."

 

[Mechanized]

Too bad they didn't spend that time or technology on creating more than one single face for the Asari.

I thought I was imagining this. Does every Asari outside of Peebee actually have the exact same face?

 

[Allnamestakenlol]

I still think we're a ways off from having quality procedurally generated experiences, so no surprise they dropped it.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Because all the content we build we try and make to a high quality,

(sorry had to do it, someone else might have got it wrong)

Probably a good call on ditching the procedural stuff, I dread to think what a clusterfuck that would have been.

 

[TheRed]

Pilot able Tempest sounds cool. Glad they didn't do the procedural planets. I much prefer what they did with them.

 

[Exploratory]

*ahem*

Have you seen this bug in game?

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Have you seen this bug in game?

No, but I'm only about 3 or 4 hours in on the campaign thus far. Saw the disappearing Colonial Director bug, tho. And while some animations are janky, the face modeling and facial combinations might actually be worse.

I'm sure I'll enjoy the game just fine, but the quality is poor given the high stature of the franchise.

 

[inky]

They've been talking about piloting the ship since before Mass Effect 2 and it never happens.

 

[jdstorm]

They've been talking about piloting the ship since before Mass Effect 2 and it never happens.

Kotor had that one minigame

 

[Van Bur3n]

Good thing they ditched it procedural generation. Could have made an incredibly flawed game into an incredibly bad game.

 

[Karamsoul]

(sorry had to do it, someone else might have got it wrong)

Probably a good call on ditching the procedural stuff, I dread to think what a clusterfuck that would have been.

The gif above always reminds me of this one:

 

[Admiral Woofington]

As someone who has played and finished the game, if they really wanted to do handcrafted worlds because of quality then they should have tried harder because rarely did I play a level and think that it was gorgeous.

The most fun you have in this game while exploring a planet is in the low gravity planet where you are essentially playing mass Effect 1 again and are flying throughout the map

 

[benzy]

As someone who has played and finished the game, if they really wanted to do handcrafted worlds because of quality then they should have tried harder because rarely did I play a level and think that it was gorgeous.

The most fun you have in this game while exploring a planet is in the low gravity planet where you are essentially playing mass Effect 1 again and are flying throughout the map

Yeah, the handcrafted planets are actually pretty underwhelming.

 

[Allnamestakenlol]

Have you seen this bug in game?

I have. So far I've experienced every one of the gifs I've seen posted in the various threads, and then some. Bleh @ this game.

 

[Shengar]

Procedural generation only works on sandbox games with very loose narrative elements. You can't have that shit on narrative driven games without ended up with generic looking stages all over the place. They should have realized it from the start and just focused on handcrafted details to the game.

Procedural generation more often than not hurts the game more when its gameplay framework doesn't support. Developer should create content for player from depth, instead of illusion of content made from procedural generation.

 

[samn]

I really cannot imagine how this would be a good idea for a Mass Effect game, unless they thought all the UNCs from ME1 were fantastic. Just sounds like a completely wrongheaded and doomed idea.

 

[Drazgul]

I still think we're a ways off from having quality procedurally generated experiences, so no surprise they dropped it.

I suspect this could've also been what Todd Howard meant when he said the "tech wasn't there yet" when it came to some of their future games. Procedural generation has practically, well, limitless potential but currently it isn't up to par. When it does mature enough though, the truly next generation of open world games could be absolutely mindblowing.

 

[Flipyap]

Procedural generation only works on sandbox games with very loose narrative elements. You can't have that shit on narrative driven games without ended up with generic looking stages all over the place. They should have realized it from the start and just focused on handcrafted details to the game.

Procedural generation more often than not hurts the game more when its gameplay framework doesn't support. Developer should create content for player from depth, instead of illusion of content made from procedural generation.

If you can have multiplayer, combat challenges, collectibles, races, minigames and player housing in a narrative-driven game, there's enough space in there to also fit in quiet exploration gameplay. These games are big enough that they can include stuff that doesn't appeal to you while still telling a satisfying story.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

*cough*

...though I suppose pushing isn't the same as getting.

I see nothing wrong with Andromeda's narrative.

 

[Zakalwe]

I'm only a few hours in, but people saying this game doesn't look good aren't making sense to me.

Does the quality drastically drop off later? So far, aside from some of the character model and animation hand, this game looks pretty great at times.

 

[Some Nobody]

This is phrased wrong. Makes it sound like they dicked around for a year with some tech before going "Yeah this isn't working". Which...no shit. Narrative-focused games and procedurally generated stuff don't go together.

 

[dumbo]

For procedural level generation you really need to pin down a great gameplay loop. And that's something ME:A lacks:
- the character levelling mechanics in ME:A simply aren't very interesting. It's almost all +N%.
- loot is tedious, pointless and incomprehensible nonsense. This isn't helped by the crafting/equipment system or the fact that all the icons look basically the same.
- the UI is [censored] terrible, especially on PC.
- there really aren't a huge amount of different enemies and they tend to die quickly in a giant mass of particle effects.

 

[Lime]

I thought I was imagining this. Does every Asari outside of Peebee actually have the exact same face?

it becomes especially jarring in this sequence:

I honestly wonder where all the assets are and what Bioware was doing for those five years. The tools and pipeline and project management must have been borked

 

[EatChildren]

This is phrased wrong. Makes it sound like they dicked around for a year with some tech before going "Yeah this isn't working".

It sounds like they prototyped and dicked around with the technology, before yes, changing direction as it wasn't working.

 

[formasymphonic]

Have you seen this bug in game?

I also saw it during the beginning to be fair.

I also got the one where you have a dialogue with Liam and his arm was hovering through the air for the whole time (sadly i don't have a video but img below)

 

[i-Lo]

it becomes especially jarring in this sequence:

I honestly wonder where all the assets are and what Bioware was doing for those five years. The tools and pipeline and project management must have been borked

That's some KoTOR level stuff. Seems like the game needed much more time and better management. With EA primarily concerned with pushing DLCs after this, I wonder how many more buyers will fork out cash for those and future MEA games.

 

[Some Nobody]

It sounds like they prototyped and dicked around with the technology, before yes, changing direction as it wasn't working.

For what its worth, I'm not saying there's a problem with your OP. I'm saying this interview makes me believe that part of the reason this game took so long was their wasting time with technology that didn't pay off.

 

[Ragnar Blackmane]

it becomes especially jarring in this sequence:

I honestly wonder where all the assets are and what Bioware was doing for those five years. The tools and pipeline and project management must have been borked

This is extremely hilarious and sad at the same time. Especially after five years of development.

 

[Ullus]

it becomes especially jarring in this sequence:


I honestly wonder where all the assets are and what Bioware was doing for those five years. The tools and pipeline and project management must have been borked

I don't like using the word ''lazy'' to describe developers, buuuut can I make an exception here? Just some minor facial changes would have gone a long way.

 

[nelsonroyale]

it becomes especially jarring in this sequence:

I honestly wonder where all the assets are and what Bioware was doing for those five years. The tools and pipeline and project management must have been borked

Even more jarring releasing next to Horizon, which sets a standard for NPC variety. Hmm was it this jarring in previous ME games? I can't remember areas with lots of Asaris...

 

[EatChildren]

For what its worth, I'm not saying there's a problem with your OP. I'm saying this interview makes me believe that part of the reason this game took so long was their wasting time with technology that didn't pay off.

Ahh yes, I agree. I'd really like to know exactly how production on Andromeda played out. I wonder if they started with these big, lofty dreams of 100s of planet zones built with procedural generation tools, alongside real time space flight and stars-to-surface transition. Huge emphasis on negative space, a sense of emptiness and wandering. Larger stretches of nothingness between the crucial points of interest, like Remnant bases, wreckages, etc. And then at some point in production it was clear that this vision wasn't following through. Part due to struggling tools and engine capabilities, Frostbite 3 really not up to the task of what the original vision intended. And part due to the overall vision not really matching BioWare's design template, emphasising too much aimlessness and emptiness and not density of hand tailored content.

The face thing is really interesting too, because one of the very earliest leaks from an exclusive fan event at PAX had BioWare apparently state that a lot of effort was being put towards character creation tools in order for them to sculpt a vaster variety of faces for both humans and aliens. The intent was to have fewer reused assets with NPCs and whatnot, greater nuanced diversity in face markings, bone plating, muscle, etc. Yet here that clearly didn't pan out.

Makes you wonder how much time was lost on working towards technology that never ended up in the main game: procedural generated worlds, seamless space-to-planet transition, full ship flight, and huge facial variety. Stuff like the latter tech, for example, if that has to be pulled late in development suddenly you're left with less time to hand tailor your assets.

 

[i-Lo]

Ahh yes, I agree. I'd really like to know exactly how production on Andromeda played out. I wonder if they started with these big, lofty dreams of 100s of planet zones built with procedural generation tools, alongside real time space flight and stars-to-surface transition. Huge emphasis on negative space, a sense of emptiness and wandering. Larger stretches of nothingness between the crucial points of interest, like Remnant bases, wreckages, etc. And then at some point in production it was clear that this vision wasn't following through. Part due to struggling tools and engine capabilities, Frostbite 3 really not up to the task of what the original vision intended. And part due to the overall vision not really matching BioWare's design template, emphasising too much aimlessness and emptiness and not density of hand tailored content.

The face thing is really interesting too, because one of the very earliest leaks from an exclusive fan event at PAX had BioWare apparently state that a lot of effort was being put towards character creation tools in order for them to sculpt a vaster variety of faces for both humans and aliens. The intent was to have fewer reused assets with NPCs and whatnot, greater nuanced diversity in face markings, bone plating, muscle, etc. Yet here that clearly didn't pan out.

Makes you wonder how much time was lost on working towards technology that never ended up in the main game: procedural generated worlds, seamless space-to-planet transition, full ship flight, and huge facial variety. Stuff like the latter tech, for example, if that has to be pulled late in development suddenly you're left with less time to hand tailor your assets.

So.. a massive DLC (restored content mo.. err.. added content) to take it to its full potential or just await GoTY edition.

 

[WaterAstro]

Well they did that planet stuff in ME1 and it was absolute garbage.

Wouldn't trust them to go procedurally generated.

 

[IvorB]

it becomes especially jarring in this sequence:

I honestly wonder where all the assets are and what Bioware was doing for those five years. The tools and pipeline and project management must have been borked

Attack of the Clones!

 

[Nightengale]

So.. a massive DLC (restored content mo.. err.. added content) to take it to its full potential or just await GoTY edition.

Realistically, all of what EC said are stuff that are significant enough that any implementation of them would be reserved for a sequel or another ME game, not a content patch.

Even if Bioware manages to get procedural systems for planets & faces in-place in the next year in time for a patch, that would be a huge, and effectively complete rebuild of the game that I can't imagine it'll be easy to implement. And the ship already sailed, and it only diminishes the value of a sequel that could actually implement said features.

Furthermore, adding procedural planets in ME:A without solving the issue that exploring that empty space without deeper systems or good execution of empty space for discovery and thrill of adventure is a mistake.

They need to make the gameplay loop of exploring procedural spaces with weak story/designed content fun first, then they can add those elements.

 

[Falchion]

From what I've seen of Andromeda's worlds, they do look really good.

 

[wesleyshark]

From what I've seen of Andromeda's worlds, they do look really good.

They really do look great, from the world's I've been on so far.

 

[nynt9]

From what I've seen of Andromeda's worlds, they do look really good.

From what I've seen, they're an exercise in using good looking assets to create the most uninspired planets possible. I seriously wonder what happened to this game during development and why EA gave such an ambitious project to an unproven team, then at what point did they decide to cut their losses and release whatever they could cobble together.

 

[Wireframe]

*Insert Hello Games/Sean Murray joke here*

 

[Charcoal]

Very interesting read. Though I'm not sure more development time would've improved the final product. It seems things were fundamentally wrong at the highest levels.

 

[Doomshine]

Well they did that planet stuff in ME1 and it was absolute garbage.

Wouldn't trust them to go procedurally generated.

Like the rest of the stuff they didn't get right in ME1, they just ripped that shit out instead of trying to improve it.