I mean, not to say you're wrong or anything but that's kind of looking in too deep on something. It's like deliberately trying to find a problem with something.
Also it was kinda the same thing in OoT. The gerudos wouldn't allow men into their home. Only when it was time to have children. Link was the first honorary member.
I was shocked that we're actually berating a dev that tries to be inclusive of so many different types of people, just because they didn't do it 100% right, then I remembered,
I think it's more about holding bioware up to the standard that they set for themselves. On multiple occasions they came out and talked about how much having gay romance options mattered to their company. Every game they've put out has given more and more options up until this one. Looking at the state of Andromeda I assume they ran out of time and decided to short change the gay options, which sucks, and as for the tone deaf transgender issue I imagine that is due to the poor writing in general.
Andromeda's a mess and the LGBT stuff is another side effect. It is totally fair to criticize them on this.
Treating all M/M content like the stepchild you know you kinda have to bring along but don't actually want to get too close to for fear of catching its cooties surely seems like an oversight, yes.
Heavy middle game quest/plot spoilers for Breath of the Wild :
The game features a Gerudo city and you need to enter it to begin the quest for the dungeun located in the desert. Unlike other games in the series where you will be trown for entering a thief hideout, this time the Gerudo women trow people out because they only allow women on the city. So there is a quest so that Link has to get women's clothing wich includes a veil to hide his face (that lots of people in the game already said to be pretty delicate, I must add). The quest is thousand times better than what FF7 did 20 years ago, but it has it's problems, specialy in how the game uses the "gay" sound bit for the person which you buy the clothes (and was the person some npc says that "a men that managed to enter", so no trans person here), imply a 5 o clock shadow when the wind takes out his veil (and make some "you are a man" line choices) implications. And you can only stay and walk in the city border with the full set equiped. It is implied that either trans people don't exist (otherwise self identification would means more than appearance) or that the Gerudo people are incredibly transfobic since nobody that looks like that was assigned male at birth is allowed to enter. Like those shitty "womyn born womyn" stuff from second wave feminist (cough cough TERFs cough cough)
While there is buried technology in BOTW, there really is nothing to imply that they would have developed the kind of medical advances to have trans characters.
My opinion, but It just wouldn't fit. And adding them wouldn't make sense from the game perspective
As for what they do have
Cross dressers is entirely functional and believable in the game world
I mean, not to say you're wrong or anything but that's kind of looking in too deep on something. It's like deliberately trying to find a problem with something.
Also it was kinda the same thing in OoT. The gerudos wouldn't allow men into their home. Only when it was time to have children. Link was the first honorary member.
Sorry for looking too deep for the fact that an awesome and diverse race that breaks lots of stigmas that women have in games does not respect my identity.
And it was shitty in OoT as well, but it got a pass because it implyed that nobody outside of gerudos could enter AND it was 20 years ago
While there is buried technology in BOTW, there really is nothing to imply that they would have developed the kind of medical advances to have trans characters.
My opinion, but It just wouldn't fit. And adding them wouldn't make sense from the game perspective
As for what they do have
Cross dressers is entirely functional and believable in the game world
You can have trans people without medical advances.
Trans people were not created by modern medicine ... we have history of trans people in ancient rome and even civilizations with stone age level of technology who not only have trans people, but actualy respects their identity.
Crossdressing is almost the exact opposite of trans people
edit : they could have been trans inclusive AND making the quest basicaly the same because
Link would simply be too sincere to lie to the gerudo about being a woman... so the clothing would just be a way of nobody asking
I was shocked that we're actually berating a dev that tries to be inclusive of so many different types of people, just because they didn't do it 100% right, then I remembered,
Sorry for looking too deep for the fact that an awesome and diverse race that breaks lots of stigmas that women have in games does not respect my identity.
And it was shitty in OoT as well, but it got a pass because it implyed that nobody outside of gerudos could enter AND it was 20 years ago
Sorry for looking too deep for the fact that an awesome and diverse race that breaks lots of stigmas that women have in games does not respect my identity.
And it was shitty in OoT as well, but it got a pass because it implyed that nobody outside of gerudos could enter AND it was 20 years ago
You can have trans people without medical advances.
Trans people were not created by modern medicine ... we have history of trans people in ancient rome and even civilizations with stone age level of technology who not only have trans people, but actualy respects their identity.
E
Crossdressing is almost the exact opposite of trans people
I don't agree. But it depends on the scenario. Without advances in medicine I don't see how most trans individuals aren't cross dressers. I mean yeah if we are going to get semantic you can cross dress and maintain ones own gender identity
I am putting this in spoiler tags to make extra certain it's clear I'm frankly discussing the situation that may include spoilers.
I realize superfluous posts here are discouraged, so I limit my participation the years I've had this account. However since this does apply to me I feel I'd like to at least give my perspective.
This is a culmination of a great many little things that all add up to be a huge thing to some of us. It starts with the hype, the way the developers teased, and the way things happened these last few days that made the impact worse. That is the short of it. I apologize if a bunch of people already went over this, but here is the long of it:
When the character Jaal was revealed, to say developers gushed is an understatement. Now when asked who could romance him (or if anyone could) they'd give the "we aren't revealing that kind of stuff wait for the guide or game itself" kind of response. There are just two big problems with this. One, both male and female developers continued to hype Jaal relentlessly saying how much they love the character (at least one male developer saying something along the lines of "I think I'm in love"). Two, despite saying they weren't talking romance and spoiling things they did spoil at least two straight male player romances! They continued deflecting questions from LGBT players during this other than saying they are accounted for. So I stress here the drama over Jaal isn't just that he's not bi, it's that they rather cruelly hyped him for weeks/months while refusing to let people down easily. And boy have some of the people on BSN gotten extremely worked up over this constant teasing...
So last Thursday data miners going through the early access data found files showing checks for which Ryder was talking along with can_romance_Jaal style text. Other files like this matched up with known data. It was then assumed he was bi, since the files almost clearly indicated it. Then Saturday data miners realized they couldn't find audio, causing mass hysteria by some (be it women wanting to do a male/male romance or others) worrying about if he swung both ways. It seemed unbelievable that they would ever string people along so long without letting them down easy. Remember this is not just saying they weren't saying which way any character swung or if they were able to be romanced. It was doing so while at the same time relentlessly hyping both the character and his irresistible qualities. They spoiled tons about how he acts despite the chatter about not wanting to spoil things, along with the male/female spoilers in the trailers.
Now it was promised that if Scott or Sara had no chance with a character they would be able to learn this very quickly. What seemed odd is reviewers seemed to lack any such solid information about Jaal. Was it some sort of specific NDA? Who knows, but when the embargo lifted contradictory info flew everywhere. Finally some of the developers anonymously told at least two of the reviewers that Jaal should turn Scott down. One of those reviewers said he was able to flirt with Jaal with Scott, and the developer that anonymously talked to him said he was surprised because Jaal should turn Scott down.
Now is this a bug? Was the reviewer just going through friendship dialog and not realizing it? Who knows, but it just adds to the mood whiplash from the people hyped up by the developers' constant swooning over the character.
So it turns out Jaal is straight. I don't know if he's bugged and won't allow flirts to turn down people playing Scott, as was promised for the characters. Now that alone, as cruel as the stringing along was, would not be enough to cause the explosion of drama as bad as has happened.
No, it turns out there's a laundry list of things that seem to push m/m romances in particular off to the side.
First, at some point one developer or another said something along the lines of a bi or gay character "has to make sense." This developer, or perhaps another, (and this part I don't remember 100%) said something along the lines that it has to be a part of who the character is. Now how this was interpreted by players is all over the place, but the absolute worst case interpretation is that first a character must "act" gay/bi and two that somehow it must be some huge part of who the character is. The fact is being gay/bi/whatever doesn't define who someone is, so that entire exchange caused all kinds of sarcastic outrage. There are a couple pages in the 1000+ page Jaal thread on BSN that are dedicated to people mocking that. This is important information because it's one of the little things that amplify the intensity reaction.
The fact there are two m/m romances both not in the squad and quite possibly being far smaller in scope than some of the m/f and f/f romances has been covered extensively in this topic I'm sure, so I'll leave that one there.
Okay now onto another point. Supposedly all sex scenes are either m/f or f/f. This has the unfortunate implication of falling into the "let's not tick off the straight male demographic that might get mad/grossed out by m/m scenes even existing" type of mentality, even if that's not the reason. Combine this with the location of the m/m romance and you get some very unfortunate implications, even if those implications aren't true. Combine that with the developers largely deflecting questions about same sex romances while at the same time incessantly teasing and you get a bunch of even more angry/hurt people.
To put a cherry on top of this, male nudity is played for laughs in at least one scene. There's nothing wrong with that, but the unfortunate implications are there: male nudity is for laughs, while female nudity is to excite males. That is a heavy accusation, and I swear I'm not accusing Bioware, EA, or some PR higher up of that mentality. But the fact is this is a laundry list of things that all circumstantially look real bad on the "straight guys are our demographic, some find f/f stuff hot, but let's keep the m/m stuff tucked away and toned down to not offend/gross them out." Again I'm not saying that's their reasoning, but everything exactly aligns to make it look that way.
That was already explosive, but add in a "By the way I'm transgender." moment that screams a misguided effort to put a spotlight on inclusion and KABOOM!
I apologize for that novel, or if it's difficult/too long to read. It's not just one thing though. It's the entire unfortunate situation, and without the context of the stringing along in the hype and the cumulative effect of all the little things adding up, the outrage may look more unreasonable. Obviously, I don't find the outrage unreasonable, but I'm not accusing the developers of intentionally hurting/angering so many people.
The kicker? If the conspiracy theory that EA or Bioware higher ups worried about PR from Gamergaters or others that would flip out about LGBT characters getting too much attention is true, well those people are flipping out anyway and would have no matter what content the game had because the narrative on that front was decided and set in stone months/years ago no matter what the game looked like. I mean come on some people actually think they made females 'ugly' to spite straight men.
Regardless of their reasoning, the ME: Andromeda team has succeeded in ticking off virtually everyone at once. Personally I still look forward to playing the game, but I am shaking my head sadly at this whole ordeal.
I know that this is a long post but I do think that it provides us with some very good context for why many BW fans are as upset as they are (and there are no major story spoilers in there, just some minor spoilers regarding who can be romanced) so I hope more people read it. I seriously think that a lot of this disappointment and outrage could've at least been mitigated if they had just announced beforehand who would be romanceable by whom and who wouldn't. This way it just makes them look like they were trying to string gay male players along, maybe hoping they wouldn't find out about the lacklustre M/M content until after they'd bought the game and couldn't return it anymore. (Yeah, that's a particularly cynical take on the matter and chances are that the real reasons aren't quite as sinister but I'm not feeling particularly generous towards BioWare at the moment.)
Clearly half-assed. Bioware, and hell, the entire industry could/should do much better. Just having some pithy option in there as an afterthought is insulting. They should be rightly called out on this and I like the example explained out on the reverse scenario, the overall reactions if the situations were reversed and the outcry that would surely come out. That the options available fucking suck is even worse.
I was shocked that we're actually berating a dev that tries to be inclusive of so many different types of people, just because they didn't do it 100% right, then I remembered,
This is truly an awful post. Just fucking atrocious. Think harder. Devs should aim higher than just checking a box and thinking that's anywhere close to acceptable levels of inclusiveness.
I don't agree. But it depends on the scenario. Without advances in medicine I don't see how most trans individuals aren't cross dressers. I mean yeah if we are going to get semantic you can cross dress and maintain ones own gender identity
Being trans is not about whether you've had surgery or not, being trans is only about whether you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth, whether your gender fits your sex. You don't suddenly become trans only once you've had sex reassignment surgery, a trans person is trans from the day they're born (or even earlier - not sure at what point in the pre-natal development transexuality forms), whether they realise it or not and trans people have existed throughout history, not only since the technology exists to perform sex reassignment surgery.
I don't agree. But it depends on the scenario. Without advances in medicine I don't see how most trans individuals aren't cross dressers. I mean yeah if we are going to get semantic you can cross dress and maintain ones own gender identity
Herodian commented that Elagabalus enhanced his natural good looks by the regular application of cosmetics.[45] He was described as having been "delighted to be called the mistress, the wife, the queen of Hierocles" and was reported to have offered vast sums of money to any physician who could equip him with female genitalia.[39] Elagabalus has been characterized by some modern writers as transgender, perhaps transsexual.[54][55][56]
It is not semantics, it is identity.
If a woman dresses as a woman it is not cross dressing.
That is THE basic definition of cross dressing.
It needs to be one gender wearing the clothing of the other.
A trans woman is not less of a woman if she looks like a man.
A trans man is not less of a man if he has boobs and no facial hair.
Tbh, I find it kind of strange that they don't have a gay squad mate if they wanted to include gay romance options. Idk. I mean, are these non-squad mates actually developed characters? Or are they just people you can have sex with? Haven't played any ME but the first and never completed a romance there, so maybe I don't get how this works, but it sounds like a strange half-step.
I, mean, I don't like the idea that everyone is bisexual or that everyone in the cast will sleep with the main character, but if they're going to make an inclusive dating simulation with the cast, surely they had room for a gay guy?
Idk seems weird, like they priortized straight and lesbian, because those are probably going to be the most played and sort of forgot about gay relationships.
Fade to black stuff reinforces that impression for me.
The achievement thing is messy. Like I get stumpkapow's argument about achievements often tempting you to bend your role playing (both a blessing and a curse, imo) but I also get that it is strange that it doesn't ask you to bend unless you are playing a gay guy. Though tbh, I also think the achievement sounds like it wants to make bend and replay, because idk if this is how other people play these things, but I tend to be monogamous. And idt wanting to sleep with women or men means you want to sleep with all women or men any more than that you want to sleep with men means you want to also sleep with women. So idk, not quite sure where I land on that concern.
As to the trans thing, sounds like flubbed attempt at well meaning inclusion with lazy dialogue from what people are saying in here.
Tbh, I find it kind of strange that they don't have a gay squad mate if they wanted to include gay romance options. Idk. I mean, are these non-squad mates actually developed characters? Or are they just people you can have sex with? Haven't played any ME but the first and never completed a romance there, so maybe I don't get how this works, but it sounds like a strange half-step.
It's not quite as bad as it just being a random NPC you can have sex with - one of the M/M options is a member of your ship's crew (but crew members have far less dialogue and development than squadmates and you obviously can't take them with you on missions) and one is, I believe (I've been trying not to spoil these things too much for myself so I'm not actually certain),
a character who plays a somewhat big role in one of the story missions
<not much of a spoiler but just in case< (but that character may just be a fling, not a full romance, we're not sure yet). However, these do not just have less non-romance content than a squadmate, they also appear to have considerably shorter romances which were created with far less care than some of the M/F F/F ones.
Listen, I believe in equal rights and representation in all things as much as anyone, but, no, it is absolutely NOT important for a videogame. This is especially true when the subject currently up for discussion isn't even a key focus of the game to begin with. Just because romancing or relationships are possible is not itself an automatic mandate that every type of relationship be represented. I ultimately don't know yet because I don't have the game of course, but even if they didn't make same sex relationships of any type possible, that, too, wouldn't somehow (at least in my view) be evidence of some kind of insensitivity or discrimination. If the developer decides it isn't something they want to explore in their game , that's very much their right. Same as if someone directing a movie decided they only wish to focus on one style of relationship.
I mean, you could say lesbians were left out or underrepresented in Moonlight. Where does it really stop?
In regards to the deadnaming, I find the dialogue to be completely tokenistic in its approach. She's responding to a question that has absolutely nothing to do with her being trans, and honestly doesn't even answer what Ryder asks. To respond with essentially 'by the way I'm trans' suggests that it defines her personality to such a degree that she has literally nothing else to talk about, addressing it in a way that is often considered trans-phobic and hence disingenuous to trans people. Bioware made a (afaik) one-dimensional trans character: the predominant facet of her personality being that she is trans. Seems like a checklist item to me.
Honestly I think the better approach is Dumbledore/Harry Potter approach, where it wasn't revealed that he is gay for a while because it was simply not relevant to the events at hand until later in the series. It promotes the idea that LGBT+ people in narratives can have distinct and well-developed personalities that are not at all defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity, which in my opinion is a much more appropriate parallel to real life.
Nah the Dumbledore nonsense is the exact opposite problem... there's nothing in the text that says he's gay... So in the end him being gay is essentially just a years later retcon... I don't want shadow representation via insinuation and hints...
Listen, I believe in equal rights and representation in all things as much as anyone, but, no, it is absolutely NOT important for a videogame. This is especially true when the subject currently up for discussion isn't even a key focus of the game to begin with. Just because romancing or relationships are possible is not itself an automatic mandate that every type of relationship be represented. I ultimately don't know yet because I don't have the game of course, but even if they didn't make same sex relationships of any type possible, that, too, wouldn't somehow (at least in my view) be evidence of some kind of insensitivity or discrimination. If the developer decides it isn't something they want to explore in their game , that's very much their right. Same as if someone directing a movie decided they only wish to focus on one style of relationship.
I mean, you could say lesbians were left out or underrepresented in Moonlight. Where does it really stop?
Moonlight is not a Role Playing Game, you see. No movie is. And I wonder if you'd be equally as okay with this if most games featured only gay romance. That'd leave straight gamers out and wouldn't reflect reality, period (since both gay and straight people exist).
It's not quite as bad as it just being a random NPC you can have sex with - one of the M/M options is a member of your ship's crew (but crew members have far less dialogue and development than squadmates and you obviously can't take them with you on missions) and one is, I believe (I've been trying not to spoil these things too much for myself so I'm not actually certain),
a character who plays a somewhat big role in one of the story missions
<not much of a spoiler but just in case< (but that character may just be a fling, not a full romance, we're not sure yet). However, these do not just have less non-romance content than a squadmate, they also appear to have considerably shorter romances which were created with far less care than some of the M/F F/F ones.
I'm curious about this length issue. I watched a video with all of Gil's romantic scenes and I did think they moved really fast, even by video game standards (
after one date and nearly without a kiss, Scott is introduced as the boyfriend to the best friend?
). Is there somewhere I can compare the length of his romance against the other arcs?
It's not quite as bad as it just being a random NPC you can have sex with - one of the M/M options is a member of your ship's crew (but crew members have far less dialogue and development than squadmates and you obviously can't take them with you on missions) and one is, I believe (I've been trying not to spoil these things too much for myself so I'm not actually certain),
a character who plays a somewhat big role in one of the story missions
<not much of a spoiler but just in case< (but that character may just be a fling, not a full romance, we're not sure yet). However, these do not just have less non-romance content than a squadmate, they also appear to have considerably shorter romances which were created with far less care than some of the M/F F/F ones.
Okay. They should've had a full squad mate that was gay, if they are going to do it that way then.
I mean, they could've done a Rise like thing where you can put as much towards a romance with a non-fighting character as a fighting character, but doesn't sound like they're doing that.
I'm curious about this length issue. I watched a video with all of Gil's romantic scenes and I did think they moved really fast, even by video game standards (
after one date and nearly without a kiss, Scott is introduced as the boyfriend to the best friend?
. Is there somewhere I can compare the length of his romance against the other arcs?
Watch video compilations of other character's arcs, I guess ? I haven't watched them myself but others have and they say that, for example, Cora's and PeeBee's romance arcs are far longer than Gil's. And Cora's sex scene is supposedly especially good. I've heard people joke that the game's facial animations are so bad because they blew their entire animation budget on that one scene .
Tbh, I find it kind of strange that they don't have a gay squad mate if they wanted to include gay romance options. Idk. I mean, are these non-squad mates actually developed characters? Or are they just people you can have sex with? Haven't played any ME but the first and never completed a romance there, so maybe I don't get how this works, but it sounds like a strange half-step.
I, mean, I don't like the idea that everyone is bisexual or that everyone in the cast will sleep with the main character, but if they're going to make an inclusive dating simulation with the cast, surely they had room for a gay guy?
Idk seems weird, like they priortized straight and lesbian, because those are probably going to be the most played and sort of forgot about gay relationships.
The achievement thing is messy. Like I get stumpkapow's argument about achievements often tempting you to bend your role playing (both a blessing and a curse, imo) but I also get that it is strange that it doesn't ask you to bend unless you are playing a gay guy. Though tbh, I also think the achievement sounds like it wants to make bend and replay, because idk if this is how other people play these things, but I tend to be monogamous. And idt wanting to sleep with women or men means you want to sleep with all women or men any more than that you want to sleep with men means you want to also sleep with women. So idk, not quite sure where I land on that concern.
As to the trans thing, sounds like flubbed attempt at well meaning inclusion with lazy dialogue from what people are saying in here.
(There are going to be a lot of spoilers in here, sorry for the walls of blank)
On the bolded part: we don't have all the information at the moment because the game has only just released, but there are videos of romance content out in the wild for some characters now, so we can take some educated guesses.
The background to the following is that the fans have previously been told that non-squad romances are just as important and fleshed out (you'll understand the pun in a moment) as squad romances.
There is a video for Cora's romance with Scott. Cora is on the squad. It culminates in a sex scene. The modelling and animation for this is frankly the best they've ever done. I've never seen better kissing animations (how odd it sounds to say this considering the other animation issues). The scene is pretty intense and involved, with both characters entirely naked, with the only thing you don't see being direct genitalia. There is thrusting. All in all it's a very good scene, nicely done, certainly compared to BioWare's previous attempts (which have a reputation for being very wooden and cringe-worthy).
Scott has another romance with Peebee, the alien asari character on the squad. Sara also gets this romance if you play as her instead. While not at all of the same technical quality as Cora's scene, lots of intimate embracing, tits and ass, thrusting, the works.
Both of these characters are involved in the main story, and get plenty of content as you take them out and about as a member of the squad.
Gil - the random engineer consigned to the engine room - has - if the videos out in the wild are to be believed - far less impact on the story, and a lot less romance interaction. When it comes to his sex scene... well there isn't one really. There's some fully clothed kissing (with the animations not well crafted at all, if the lips are even visible), then fade to black, and they wake up in bed together with the camera tightly focused on their heads and shoulders.
Reyes - a random guy on a hub world who seems to be bi - so far has one date with a bit of kissing and a sunset. I've seen word that he has no sex scene, but I've also seen word he's also fade to black. No confirmation.
Now - my argument here isn't "it's not good content unless they are bumping uglies in extreme detail" but rather that there is a discrepancy in which romances have carefully crafted and extensive meaningful content and which don't. What's more, every type of player other than mlm (and asexuals probably, but it's even less certain right now) have a choice. They can have squad romances, romances with nudity, romances with... well, romance... romances that are flirty, romances that have deep commitment, and romances in and out of the squad. Gay guys... I'm struggling to locate the same breadth of choice.
I should note that BioWare have done something very interesting with Gil's romance. They've seemingly tried to make some kind of progress in one particular area
(you can have a baby together)
but the way it is done feels almost like the trans issue others have talked about.
It centres around Gil's best friend, Jill (no joke), being head of the repopulation org, and she is always going on and on at Gil that it is his duty to father a child. Boy. And then, after Gil and Scott have kissed just the once, she asks Gil to father her child to kickstart things, and says "hey, that Scott seems nice and you like him, why don't you both be the daddy?" This whole story is one that could have had so much potential and broken down many barriers, but again it's a case of not being thought out well enough. You don't decide to have a baby together because you've developed a deep and committed relationship and decided to take it to the next level by starting a family of your own - but rather a women who insists on highlighting that being gay means robbing the world of reproduction opportunities almost throws a kid at you saying "hey, I know you've only just got together but this would be cool, right?"
Ugh, I've typed so much I'm forgetting where I was going with all of this. I think my overall point was that inclusion doesn't mean equality, and MEA seems to make it very clear that equality isn't important. Straight men get the spoils of war, and bi women/lesbians do well out of it almost by proxy. Straight women get fewer options, but at least have a squad mate, who I expect will have content on par with Cora. And gay men? The fewest of all options, and none on the squad. And with considerably less substance, and less care being taken in general (no unique faces, no well crafted sex or even kissing scenes, etc).
I think a lot of people forget the ME team isn't the DA team. DA has had m/m romances from the beginning, and they've only continued to improve, and they show time and again how they engage with their lgbt fans and strive to do better (and admit their mistakes). The ME team have provided a shit show over the years. From saying that Shepard just wasn't gay because he has a predefined personality (unless she's a woman and can bang the hot blue space babes that they've all got hard ons for), to saying it's not really gay anyway because the asari aren't women (despite them being designed to look biologically female for the audience, and using female pronouns up until this game), to giving straight male Shepard as much tits and ass as he can handle, to waiting until the third game to give mlm players a little bit of something... and a whole other bunch of impossibly tiring things as well.
I think a lot of people just assumed that because ME had Kaidan and Steve in ME3, and because of DAI, that MEA would surely be another step forward for the ME franchise. It had to be, right? Well no. If anything to many people it feels like a step back because there isn't even a bi male/gay squad mate this time.
Because it "just didn't make sense for their character" - whatever that means.
To be fair the definitions given in the OP don't actually fit what's shown of the game. Some people might find it unrealistic for a trans person to talk this way ~200 years in the future on a spaceship in another galaxy, surrounded by aliens -- and that's fine -- but it doesn't fit any sort of classic definition of deadnaming (which yes, is cruel, and something done to other people). It's not great writing by any means, but it's hardly impossible that this totally fake fantasy character could be comfortable enough to mention their distant history. I imagine the intention was actually to show how progressive the future is, that nobody is concerned or upset by this transition so there's not the same trauma that might be associated with it today. (Reminds me a bit of Sya in Guild Wars 2, in that sense.) It's clumsy as all hell, but this is Bioware here.
(And while there are very good reasons to present this subject matter as a universal taboo, just to get ignorant people to act politely, it's not like trans people are some monolith who all feel the same way about deadnames anyway.)
You cannot seriously be arguing that trans people shouldn't raise their concern because 200 years in the future space trans people might not have the same problem with it... That actually cannot be your argument...
The future isn't going to make our old names not kinda feel weird... I have managed to go through life with next to no discrimination or hate (I am stupid lucky for that) but even then even hearing my old name in reference to other people kinda feels weird let alone when people ask what it was out of polite curiosity, space travel and aliens aren't going to change that feeling.
Like Aliens and far distance human space travel doesn't exist... trans people do.
Yeah the transgender NPC made me double take when she popped up in the GB quick look. I guess since she's such a minor character they don't really have time to introduce it better, but they could have just picked someone else.
Watch video compilations of other character's arcs, I guess ? I haven't watched them myself but others have and they say that, for example, Cora's and PeeBee's romance arcs are far longer than Gil's. And Cora's sex scene is supposedly especially good. I've heard people joke that the game's facial animations are so bad because they blew their entire animation budget on that one scene .
Ah, okay. I'll look to see what is out there. I did see Cora's sex scene, and it frankly blew me away compared to the other things I've seen from the game. Especially compared to Gil's, which was particularly limited and awkward. PeeBee's was
actually not shown, similar to Gil's EDIT: This was only one route apparently. They apparently have a full one, per amoebae
Ah, okay. I'll look to see what is out there. I did see Cora's sex scene, and it frankly blew me away compared to the other things I've seen from the game. Especially compared to Gil's, which was particularly limited and awkward. PeeBee's was
Peebee has two scenes depending on your choices. The first in the airlock that fades to black (which I thought was fun) is a no strings attached kind of thing. The second, in your quarters, is based on commitment and is full on nekkid tits and ass grinding embrace eternity stuff. But with really stilted animations.
Heavy middle game quest/plot spoilers for Breath of the Wild :
The game features a Gerudo city and you need to enter it to begin the quest for the dungeun located in the desert. Unlike other games in the series where you will be trown for entering a thief hideout, this time the Gerudo women trow people out because they only allow women on the city. So there is a quest so that Link has to get women's clothing wich includes a veil to hide his face (that lots of people in the game already said to be pretty delicate, I must add). The quest is thousand times better than what FF7 did 20 years ago, but it has it's problems, specialy in how the game uses the "gay" sound bit for the person which you buy the clothes (and was the person some npc says that "a men that managed to enter", so no trans person here), imply a 5 o clock shadow when the wind takes out his veil (and make some "you are a man" line choices) implications. And you can only stay and walk in the city border with the full set equiped. It is implied that either trans people don't exist (otherwise self identification would means more than appearance) or that the Gerudo people are incredibly transfobic since nobody that looks like that was assigned male at birth is allowed to enter. Like those shitty "womyn born womyn" stuff from second wave feminist (cough cough TERFs cough cough)
I mean, that quest was was kinda shitty but (MORE BotW SPOILERS
"Gerudo people are incredibly transfobic since nobody that looks like that was assigned male at birth is allowed to enter" is technically wrong since they let (single sex, male coded) Gorons enter.
Peebee has two scenes depending on your choices. The first in the airlock that fades to black (which I thought was fun) is a no strings attached kind of thing. The second, in your quarters, is based on commitment and is full on nekkid tits and ass grinding embrace eternity stuff. But with really stilted animations.
Its a really dumb trophy. Making that stuff creepier then it already is
Bioware's handling of romance and sexuality has been a bit crap. TBH I wish I could turn it off because every character in every bioware game feels like you always get to "that point" where you got to choose to bone them or not, straight or gay. It just feels so gamey and awkward.
Every bioware character relationship just feels the same now. Of course maybe this is just compounded with the kindle romance novel level writing a lot of them have.
This seems like drama for the sake of drama to me. Its a game, nobody is belittling any communites with this, its not real life, Bioware have tried to please everyone and failed, but thats true of many other aspects of the game we dont see threads about.
This seems like drama for the sake of drama to me. Its a game, nobody is belittling any communites with this, its not real life, Bioware have tried to please everyone and failed, but thats true of many other aspects of the game we dont see threads about.
I mean, that quest was was kinda shitty but (MORE BotW SPOILERS
"Gerudo people are incredibly transfobic since nobody that looks like that was assigned male at birth is allowed to enter" is technically wrong since they let (single sex, male coded) Gorons enter.
Heavy middle game quest/plot spoilers for Breath of the Wild :
The game features a Gerudo city and you need to enter it to begin the quest for the dungeun located in the desert. Unlike other games in the series where you will be trown for entering a thief hideout, this time the Gerudo women trow people out because they only allow women on the city. So there is a quest so that Link has to get women's clothing wich includes a veil to hide his face (that lots of people in the game already said to be pretty delicate, I must add). The quest is thousand times better than what FF7 did 20 years ago, but it has it's problems, specialy in how the game uses the "gay" sound bit for the person which you buy the clothes (and was the person some npc says that "a men that managed to enter", so no trans person here), imply a 5 o clock shadow when the wind takes out his veil (and make some "you are a man" line choices) implications. And you can only stay and walk in the city border with the full set equiped. It is implied that either trans people don't exist (otherwise self identification would means more than appearance) or that the Gerudo people are incredibly transfobic since nobody that looks like that was assigned male at birth is allowed to enter. Like those shitty "womyn born womyn" stuff from second wave feminist (cough cough TERFs cough cough)
There's the "humanity exploring beyond Earth, beyond the solar system, and now beyond the galaxy" aspect, which is as inspiringly progressive as any exploration of 21st-century political issues could possibly be.
In seriousness, though, I have no problem with how this transgender character introduces herself. This game is set centuries in the future and conventions of human interaction are going to change tremendously in this interval. We are being parochial if we expect a standard that has evolved in just the last decade or so to remain in place for the next seventy decades.
I an expecting and hoping that people will be able to become as open as this character is about all kinds of things. I would be disappointed if today's conventions, which are not the friendliest toward minorities, last that long.
This seems like drama for the sake of drama to me. Its a game, nobody is belittling any communites with this, its not real life, Bioware have tried to please everyone and failed, but thats true of many other aspects of the game we dont see threads about.
There's the "humanity exploring beyond Earth, beyond the solar system, and now beyond the galaxy" aspect, which is as inspiringly progressive as any exploration of 21st-century political issues could possibly be.
In seriousness, though, I have no problem with how this transgender character introduces herself. This game is set centuries in the future and conventions of human interaction are going to change tremendously in this interval. We are being parochial if we expect a standard that has evolved in just the last decade or so to remain in place for the next seventy decades.
I an expecting and hoping that people will be able to become as open as this character is about all kinds of things. I would be disappointed if today's conventions, which are not the friendliest toward minorities, last that long.
Complete and total of transgender people still likely won't change because old names are fundamentally is part of the dysphoria.
Like even accidental pronoun mistakes hurt many trans folk even though we know the other person did it by accident. That's not going to change because wrong pronouns are part of the dysphoria
And again trans people are real, spaceships and aliens of Mass Effect are not.
But it's the future is not an acceptable reason to hamdwave the poor handling of a trans character.
I mean by your logical we could use trans and gay slurs and say that's ok because 200 years in the future everyone is cool with LGBT folk so times have changed... wouldn't mean actually writing the slurs in a video game would be ok.
While there is buried technology in BOTW, there really is nothing to imply that they would have developed the kind of medical advances to have trans characters.
My opinion, but It just wouldn't fit. And adding them wouldn't make sense from the game perspective
As for what they do have
Cross dressers is entirely functional and believable in the game world
I don't agree. But it depends on the scenario. Without advances in medicine I don't see how most trans individuals aren't cross dressers. I mean yeah if we are going to get semantic you can cross dress and maintain ones own gender identity
My point was you couldnt tell the difference between a trans person and a cross dresser.
The example used has a someone who dresses like a women who is a man, but the character never states what they identify as or if they just want to dress as a women for other purposes.
So the person I was responding too says that this person isnt trans.
I don't agree. But it depends on the scenario. Without advances in medicine I don't see how most trans individuals aren't cross dressers. I mean yeah if we are going to get semantic you can cross dress and maintain ones own gender identity
That's not semantic that's the actual definition: cross dressers are men/women who wear clothes of the opposite sex but still identify as their assigned at birth sex.
Trans folk whose gender doesn't match their assigned at birth sex are not cross dressers like what the hell...
The difference between these two groups is not surgery, the lack of surgical availability does not stop a trans woman from being a woman or a trans man from being a man
My point was you couldnt tell the difference between a trans person and a cross dresser.
The example used has a someone who dresses like a women who is a man, but the character never states what they identify as or if they just want to dress as a women for other purposes.
So the person I was responding too says that this person isnt trans.
That's not semantic that's the actual definition: cross dressers are men/women who wear clothes of the opposite sex but still identify as their assigned at birth sex.
A ton of trans people never seek surgery, trans is not defined by a state of physical being
It is semantic, because the definition of cross dresser does not have have your qualifier in it. "but still identify as their assigned at birth sex"
I know. But the person I was responding too was saying that trans people dont exist despite the fact that the cross dresser in question never claimed to still identify as a man.
It is semantic, because the definition of cross dresser does not have have your qualifier in it. "but still identify as their assigned at birth sex"
I know. But the person I was responding too was saying that trans people dont exist despite the fact that the cross dresser in question never claimed to still identify as a man.
It's worth pointing out that Bioware actively tries to engage with their LGBT fanbase. They give talks at GaymerX regularly and have been open and vocal about their commitment to LGBT representation in their games. That's part of the reason this is such a painful backslide.
A friend of mine who was horribly disappointed by the lack of M/M romance in the original trilogy is really dejected over this. He's met people from Bioware, he loves their games and writing, and when we played through the trilogy a year or two back he kinda accepted, "okay, I'll play as FemShep, and I'm sure down the line they'll get better at this." Hearing his options have been limited to a pair of NPCs - one of whom seems fairly minor - has really put him off the game. Said it felt a bit like a slap in the face.
? I haven't watched them myself but others have and they say that, for example, Cora's and PeeBee's romance arcs are far longer than Gil's. And Cora's sex scene is supposedly especially good. I've heard people joke that the game's facial animations are so bad because they blew their entire animation budget on that one scene 
