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Media Create Sales: November 29, 2010 - December 5, 2010
- Thread starter Chris1964
- Start date
BishopLamont
Banned
Yeah seriously, I don't know how any MC regular who's been through all this can honestly think the DS has "good" third party support. :/marc^o^ said:
fixed.Michan said:
forgetting the first generation are we? :lol
Cosmonaut X
Member
BishopLamont said:
Well, in some ways it's had fantastic support - Dragon Quest IX is a massive title, Level 5 brought some killer titles (and in many ways they built themselves off the back of their DS efforts) and there have been a slew of second-tier titles from pretty much every Japanese third party, as well as dozens of fascinating minor titles.
What it's missed are the kind of titles the PSP snapped up - the Personas, high-profile fanservice FF spin-offs like Dissidia or Crisis Core, Monster Hunter, Ace Combat, Metal Gear Solid etc. - the kind of titles a certain section of the gaming audience think of as "proper third-party support".
DS is beating all previous Nintendo records, and its major franchises are selling MUCH better than they did 5 or 10 years ago. I don't know what makes you think Nintendo will suddenly see a reverse trend in customer loyalty. Next Mario Kart will be a huge killer app. Nintendogs with cats- in 3D- will wow children, killer app.gofreak said:
Price could become an issue past a certain point, but then price will drop.
I find Nintendo's position pretty rosy: they have their tremendous installed base to leverage + this big PSP competitive market now adressable.
DS has had good third-party support.
PSP has had good third-party support.
3DS will have fantastic third-party support. It is the second Super NES : think about it, Tales of, Street Fighter, MegaTen, Metal Gear, Megaman, CastleVania, WWE, Layton, Phoenix Wright, FF, DQ, Madden, FIFA, Persona...
I could go on forever and it would be not enough. I didn't even mention RE and CoD.
edit : although I agree that handhelds may not be the best plateform for long hours spent on shooters online.
PSP has had good third-party support.
3DS will have fantastic third-party support. It is the second Super NES : think about it, Tales of, Street Fighter, MegaTen, Metal Gear, Megaman, CastleVania, WWE, Layton, Phoenix Wright, FF, DQ, Madden, FIFA, Persona...
I could go on forever and it would be not enough. I didn't even mention RE and CoD.
edit : although I agree that handhelds may not be the best plateform for long hours spent on shooters online.
BishopLamont
Banned
There's a reason I said "good".Spiegel said:
Yep, and those are the titles that you need to become PS2-like.Cosmonaut X said:
BishopLamont
Banned
I don't count a bunch of remakes as good. Cheap budget + high userbase was the draw, lets see them try that on any other console and see how well that pays off.duckroll said:
duckroll said:
I think 4. Final Fantasy X, Dragon Quest VIII, Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy X-2.
I don't think any Kingdom Hearts has reached 1M in Japan.
BishopLamont said:
DQ IV, V and VI were the only real remakes. FF III was really different so that I don't really count it among them.
BishopLamont said:
But does it really matter what you consider if more people are interested in buying them than the titles you seem to think is what is important to becoming PS2-like? When more people want to buy a remake on DS than a big budget original console lite title on the PSP, I think that says a lot.
Kenka said:
6 million sellers on the PS2 as well. DQVr, DQVIII, FFX, FFX-2, FFXII, KH2.
Edit: Actually there are 7 million selling DS titles from S-E now. My mistake. I forgot DQMJ2.
BishopLamont
Banned
Remaking a bunch of DQs and FFs because you failed to support a system properly is not good support, not sure how much further down I can break it down for you.duckroll said:
You can chalk that up as an exception, like how the Wii has DQX but that means squat.Kenka said:
The DS can't do that kind of 3D graphics. 3rd person with free camera control is a huge stretch for the system.Cosmonaut X said:
It has nothing at all to do with "support". Third parties have supported the DS extremely well. They just can't make that style of game on it no matter how much money they spend.
BishopLamont said:
I don't know how you can consider this failure to support a system:
http://tinyurl.com/nds-sales
http://tinyurl.com/psp-sales
The comparison with Wii, PS3, and 360 are even worse. So unless your think S-E simply failed to support any system, period...
duckroll said:
Thank you much.
It is amazing to se that S-E has been able to rack cash for years solely on ports, remakes and spin-offs with the exception of DQ IX. I do wonder if the DS has not turned into their most profitable plateform ever in Japan by now.
All this money pumped into Fabula Nova Crystallis games... :-(
BishopLamont
Banned
You'll notice most of the sales come from the remakes and yes SE has failed to support any system properly because they simply screwed up their priorities. Why do the HD systems get the big budget RPG's? Why does the PSP have more big budget new games than the DS? Not just SE, but this goes for all third parties (except maybe L5). Of course this all stems from everyone betting on "HD" at the start of this gen, but hey I guess it needs to be said again?duckroll said:
BishopLamont said:
They did a lot of money this gen too. But I agree that business-wise, they could have done things better. I am not as harsh on Wada as I was one year ago. But I do wonder if the tools they developped for the HD twins will pay off on the long run. That's the real question.
We do know though, that a Final Fantasy VII remake with FF XIII graphics would take too long to be made so maybe all this investment during all those years was not worth it ? [run for his life]
Square-Enix knows that the quality of their technical work is one solid basis for sales and maybe they wanted to be number one in this specific topic this gen again. Maybe and that's why they went crazy with FF XIII CGs while the rest was somehow lacking appeal [run for his life again]
BishopLamont said:
DS also had his share of fairly well-directed games. Subarashi no Sekai and 4 Warriors of Light are good examples of prime efforts, quality-wise. But they did fail to sale as much as KH:BB and Dissidia.
Jonnyram said:
Just keep in mind and ask yourself, what exactly is keeping both Sony plattforms alive? Their first and second party efforts (like GranTourismo) or 3rd parties? The PSP had a big advantage this gen that due to "demographic oriented" designs (PSP more to teens Crisis Core and DS more to kids FF3) and obvious technical possibilities (Musou, and Monster Hunter games) offered an obvious and to a certain extant exclusive lineup for a handheld. But exactly this advantage could be lost in the next round, MGS and both Resi games for 3DS are at least a start.
I find it really hard to agree that the DS somehow retrospectively has no good third party support. There was TONS of good DS third party support, but they are games which are tailored to the DS. If a title is of high quality and/or has a strong brand attached, and such a title achieves satisfactory or higher than expected sales, then that is good support. It does not need to have certain rules attached to what "good support" means.
Good support does not mean it needs to be an original game, or that it should feel like a console game, or that it should meet certain budget requirements. Ultimately the people buying games are people looking for entertainment. They want something that interests them, and that can entertain them.
Here's an example. Level 5 put out a big budget original RPG in the form of White Knight Chronicles on the PS3 because Sony contracted them to make it. Level 5 also made a bunch of puzzle adventure games on the DS. Which would you really consider to be better support? Spending more money on something does not always produce more effective results, nor is it a sign of quality. No one will dispute that Layton is a quality series which represents a substantial stake in quality third party support.
Good support does not mean it needs to be an original game, or that it should feel like a console game, or that it should meet certain budget requirements. Ultimately the people buying games are people looking for entertainment. They want something that interests them, and that can entertain them.
Here's an example. Level 5 put out a big budget original RPG in the form of White Knight Chronicles on the PS3 because Sony contracted them to make it. Level 5 also made a bunch of puzzle adventure games on the DS. Which would you really consider to be better support? Spending more money on something does not always produce more effective results, nor is it a sign of quality. No one will dispute that Layton is a quality series which represents a substantial stake in quality third party support.
Cosmonaut X
Member
duckroll said:
The point I was trying to make earlier (and probably failed at!) was that to certain segments of the gaming world, WKC is a prime example of high-quality, "proper" support while Layton is just a dull "casual" puzzle game. It's sometimes hard to step outside of your personal tastes to see that in terms of financial investment, time and effort many third parties supported the DS massively, even if the games they brought weren't to your liking.
The DS certainly never ended up in the situation the Wii did where you can legitimately argue that third parties never really supported it in any meaningful way; it was more a case of them supporting the DS to the max in most cases, but being limited by the hardware for certain titles (which - if the PSP hadn't existed - might have ended up elsewhere, but landed there instead).
I don't think third party support is better for 3DS than it was for DS at all. In the early days of DS we had support from all the major names, with RE, Tales, Castlevania, Sonic, etc. A few swings and misses and those third parties lost a little faith, esp. when their titles didn't succeed in the way Nintendo's did.
It's the same with all Nintendo hardware after SNES, because Sony changed third parties' expectations of a hardware manufacturer, while Nintendo kept many of their restrictive policies in place. Whether they change them for 3DS or not is the key. If they don't change, the 3DS will end up the same as DS and Wii, because niche titles will fail, time and time again, while Nintendo's own titles dominate on the platform.
But yeah, the success of the platform will depend more on the consumers than the publishers, I think. So it's tough to call because we really don't know what PSP2 will offer other than some leaked hardware specs.
It's the same with all Nintendo hardware after SNES, because Sony changed third parties' expectations of a hardware manufacturer, while Nintendo kept many of their restrictive policies in place. Whether they change them for 3DS or not is the key. If they don't change, the 3DS will end up the same as DS and Wii, because niche titles will fail, time and time again, while Nintendo's own titles dominate on the platform.
But yeah, the success of the platform will depend more on the consumers than the publishers, I think. So it's tough to call because we really don't know what PSP2 will offer other than some leaked hardware specs.
duckroll said:
That's what I've been saying all this time.
PSP being a Ps2-lite is what doomed it at first because PS2 was still in full force, Ds was the big thing and cheaper to make games and Ps3 was on the horizon. But being a PS2-lite is what saved it later when a PS2 port became a monster in sales and was a more atractive platform to third parties who wanted to graduate from making 32bit gen games than the Wii and PS3 were at that time.
Sony won't be that lucky and will have to actually try harder this time. But for now, it looks like they are handing the handheld market to Nintendo without even trying.
BishopLamont said:
This is possibly the dumbest thing I have heard all year, worse than me thinking GT5 would sell well in Japan, worse than someone whom said Sony should make first party titles for the 3DS and iPhone. Overall the DS has had great 3rd party support, Japan especially. Cannot see the west changing it's stance on the handheld market, we have no idea what studios are working on the portable 3DS games they have promised. We've had portable AC games and other biggie franchises this gen and they were horrible, simply horrible. Sure the fuck don't see the mainline AC team working on a portable 3DS game so at present nothing seems to have changed. You have the big teams working on portable games in Japan while the kids whom have come for work experience make the western portable games.
BoilersFan23 said:
Sony need to do something to make the GT franchise relevant again in Japan and NA however cannot think of what that will be. GT continues it's fall in Japan and NA while it's still quite a beast in EU. Anyway it's the first game I have purchased since 2008 that was not a MHP import and I've hardly played it since getting it so my stance has changed on the game, in that I don't give a fuck how it does so need to stop going on about it. Come to think of it they could make the franchise relevant again by actually being good and maybe having leaderboards on release date and not months later.
venting out my anger towards the game won't get my £35 back 
Fularu said:I'm thinking that maybe Namco did the right thing by releasing it first on the Wii and then porting/enhancing it on the PS3. That allowed them to net 500k (Grace PC3 will most likely sell more than 300k units) out of a single game in Japan.
would Tales of Grace sell 500k if it had been released on the PS3 only? I somehow doubt it, I guess Xillia will tell us how a PS3 exclusive Tales could perform.
If it stays in the 300-350k range, then it would definitely be smarter to release a "dumbed down" Wii version first and "enhance it" for PS3 9 months down the road and abuse the double dippers.
If it does 500k+ and there's no overlap between Wii and PS3 buyers... well go PS3 only I guess
PS Scamco, enough with the bullshit, release Tales of Grace in Canada -_-
Genius! This has got to be done with the bigger franchises, DQX releases day one on the PS2 and then 9 months later on the DQX, cannot think of an easier way to make money.
Cosmonaut X
Member
Jonnyram said:
...and I think you're trying too hard to present initial DS support as being equivalent to initial 3DS support. Just as a "for example" from your list:
RE: The Mercenaries 3DS and RE: Revelations vs RE: Deadly Silence (a port of the PS1 RE1)?
...and Sonic and Castlevania as "major names"? In Japan?
I'll give you the Wii - and for a number of reasons that I think have been covered elsewhere - but niche titles "failing" on the DS? Really?
BishopLamont
Banned
Its really not good support if you just think a little. Besides that, you guys are doing a really good job stretching my words on "good" support, no shit the DS has had support, but its a stretch to say its anywhere near good.Baki said:
Actually your GT5 prediction is more dumb because unlike my statements, your statements are based on nothing but wishful thinking?KingDizzi said:
Baki
Member
BishopLamont said:
It is good support. They couldn't give DS MH etc.. because the hardware doesn't support those types of games.
You seriously are crazy if you think the DS got anything but great 3rd party support. They tried to release as many games and established brands as they could on the DS.
EDIT: Name a fucking handheld with better support. (and don't say the PSP because then I'd have to reach through my screen and slap you)
BishopLamont
Banned
Name a handheld thats sold as much as the DS? :lolBaki said:
BishopLamont
Banned
They both go hand in hand, to which the DS got relatively shunned, like the Wii, even if its not to that great of an extent.Baki said:
Talk about dumb statements.KingDizzi said:
marc^o^ said:
All I'm saying is that Nintendo has new competition since the hey-day of the DS for the attention and money of 'light' gamers. Do you think Nintendo isn't concerned about that? Maybe it's not happening, but it seems like it possibly is.
I have no doubt that the franchises you mentioned will do big numbers on 3DS and will sell units. However, is the huge success of those games due to the franchises alone or also due to the context they are in? The wider public has been in love with Nintendo franchises over the years to varying degrees suggesting context is important too. The context the DS has been is facing new challenges. I'm not saying those games can't continue to sell big numbers and attract users, I am sure they will, I'm just not sure if they'll automatically ensure that the relationship with 'light' gamers remains as strong as it ever was. I'm sure some chunk of the audience on these franchises on DS are a bit more non-committal than you might think.
Laguna said:
It's a start, but I think until we know the lay of the land completely it's hard to say with certainty what will happen. We have nothing to compare 3DS against.
In the worst case for Sony, if pubs treat the 3DS as a lowest common denominator and limit the technical scope of their games to suit it i.e. if all such games are shared with 3DS, I think it would still remain an open question if the people who play these kinds of games will discern the 3DS to be the better machine and platform for them. For now, PSP2 is at a disadvantage because we don't see its vision of a platform for those games, we only see 3DS, and it looks good. But I don't know if people should mistake that for Sony 'doing nothing' about competing to defend its market.
This statement has probably been repeated now, but DS support was good, but seemed generally restricted to a few genres. Now, one of that genre was RPG's, so thats pretty good support for Japan right there, but in terms of action/fighting type games the DS never really got much of anything.
BishopLamont
Banned
What an achievement, and to think it only needed pure domination for a good few years to get that!Baki said:
BishopLamont
Banned
Let's just agree to disagree since you guys for the most part think the support DS got was good, I on the other hand thinks the DS deserved much more. Once again I find people focusing on one word instead of everything else I say. Oh well.
BishopLamont
Banned
Did that stop Nintendo selling a ton? Or are we just going to cast that aside as an exception?Baki said:
Baki
Member
BishopLamont said:
What are you getting at exactly? Yes, 3rd parties supported the DS because it was a hot product. Why else would they? Good will? This is a fucking business.
But again, what else could they have done? MGS? RE? Not possible (in the same way as the consoles) as it would have played completely differently due to the hardware.
(As an aside, you really are starting sound like a butt-hurt Nintendo fan with self-entitlement issues.)
BishopLamont
Banned
Establish new brands that could sell well on the DS? Besides Level-5, who else has done that?Baki said:
Good will? :lol
This is all for third parties' own good, their survival depends on it, not me.
Baki
Member
BishopLamont said:
Capcom? SE? Konami? The list goes on.
And it doesn't hurt they put their big hitters on the system as well.
Oh and I should also point out that what you're referring to is uninspired support not neccessarily poor support. No-one in their right mind would call putting your biggest franchise on a platform an indication of poor support.
Jonnyram said:
The DS had a really bad 3rd party support it´s first 1-2 years with Tamagotchi and Love&Berry as hits...
Talking about failing of niche titles on DS. Do you know Etrian Odyssey, 7th Dragon and why not - Layton?
Just take a look at SQEX work and you have a very wide spectrum of decisions that may or not have had a lot of influence on the performance of certain series. Dragon Quest a huge success on DS due to exclusivety and good quality, even an enhanced Chrono Trigger sold about a million over there, Final Fantasy had a great start with FF3 that was a million seller and this gens best selling handheld FF to date, but we know how it went afterwards. Why did DQ succeed and not FF even after such a good start? Why did FF3 even got a good start to begin with? While DQ delivered good quality and what fans wanted out of a DQ game, FF3 couldn´t deliver neither the quality nor fullfill fans expactations on top of that looked really cheap compared to Crisis Core. The same goes with a lot of serieses the most similar case is the Tales of series, it started with Tales of Tempest a really bad start that really didn´t help to built up a fanbase and at the same time the PSP got ports of the better Tales of games, the spinoff series and Tales of Melfes was rumoured to be a PSP game (that was before the NDS boom started), it´s obvious what plattform was chosen by Tales fans.