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Microsoft: "We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics"

C

charsace

Member
The power difference doesn't mean anything. The gap isn't big enough to matter and both pieces of hardware can do the same hardware effects on the video cards. As long as MS releases good exclusives and is willing to shell out money at the start to secure third party exlusives they will be fine.

Sipheren, the GT6 trailer doesn't look any where near as good as the Forza 5 trailer. The backgrounds, particles, post processing effects and textures look way better in the Forza 5 trailer.
 
C

clutch.as.it.gets.

Member
Y2Kev said:
I'm so frustrated by this power thing. The PS2 came out more than 18 months before the Xbox. The console gen was decided before the Xbox was released; it could have been weaker than the PS2 and it would not have mattered. The whole conversation is meaningless; it does not reveal anything about consumer choices or consumer tastes.

However, if you examine the PS2 in the context in which it was released, you would surely realize that power was a key component of how the system was marketed to consumers. You would know:

  • That the hardware components were given humanizing marketing names like "Emotion Engine" and "Graphics Synthesizer"
  • That the PS2 was reported on in the media as being a supercomputer ("Sadaam Hussein is importing them TO LAUNCH MISSILES!")
  • That the famous "PS9" ad linked the PS2 to a chain of consoles so powerful it became part of your mind
  • That Kutaragi spoke about the PS2 as having "Toy Story like graphics" and that players would "jack into the matrix"

Stop being so intellectually dishonest. The PS2 was a monster when it came out. That power mattered.

Yes, it's true that, "The most powerful console has never won the generation!!!!111" But such an observation is facile and meaningless. The SNES and Genesis went head to head on power. The early days of the PS1 vs. Saturn was nothing but a 3d pissing match. The N64 was all about power and it debuted with a paradigm-shifting 3D title. The Dreamcast was a powerful machine ("it's thinking") and the PS2 came out and blew it away.

Am I saying the most powerful machine wins? No. Am I saying power is very important? Absolutely. Even this generation more consumers chose HD gaming machines than non-HD gaming machines and there is the possibility that the PS3 will close out the gen in first place.

So stahp.
Click to expand...


I fully agree with you.
 
S

SniperHunter

Banned
FordGTGuy said:
When did I say that you said that?

I merely said that console performance does not determine the winner in sales in a generation, in fact I never commented at all on your opinion of this situation.



What does this have to do with next-gen games being at the Xbox reveal? BTW that Zonda shot is terrible.

What's next are you going to pull out a list war?
Click to expand...

I am just saying bull shots and replay videos have skewed peoples perspective of what's really next gen. I wasn't impressed by the Forza video. Show me real gameplay :)
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
FordGTGuy said:
It's already confirmed DDR3.



Huh?



Not trying to get in a argument with a mod/admin but I don't agree at all with it being intellectually dishonest. If anything I think it's not only intellectually honest but backed up by evidence.
Click to expand...

You can say whatever you like. I don't ban people as soon as they start arguing with me. It may be in your interest to argue with me. ;)
 
F

FordGTGuy

Banned
Sipheren said:
I really can't get over how unimpressive the visuals were, this Forza 5 trailer looks about the same as the GT6 trailer. Where is the huge jump that people are going to shell out $500 for?

Forza 5
http://youtu.be/r46D1lRpO1k

GT6
http://youtu.be/5-LILLcpO88
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but no way does that GT6 video looks as good the Forza 5 video.

SniperHunter said:
I am just saying bull shots and replay videos have skewed peoples perspective of what's really next gen. I wasn't impressed by the Forza video. Show me real gameplay :)
Click to expand...

Well we're going to be waiting a long time for that.
 
B

Brashnir

Member
Klocker said:
Cloud computing power is what MS is banking on to beat the PS4 in graphics... they talked about it quite a bit today but it will not be evident until people e get them home and games are using the power and devs leverage it using the 300k servers
Click to expand...

Cloud Computing is an impossible goal with userbases as large as MS wants to attain. The manufacturing costs don't scale. They'll be able to handle matchmaking and some of the TV stuff in the cloud, but nothing related to rendering graphics.
 
Karak

Karak

Member
Brashnir said:
Cloud Computing is an impossible goal with userbases as large as MS wants to attain. The manufacturing costs don't scale. They'll be able to handle matchmaking and some of the TV stuff in the cloud, but nothing related to rendering graphics.
Click to expand...

So it seems like they are betting the market on it with the financial backing to try. So they must think so. It will be interesting regardless.
FordGTGuy said:
I'm sorry but no way does that GT6 video looks as good the Forza 5 video.



Well we're going to be waiting a long time for that.
Click to expand...
Honestly I didn't see much of a difference to be honest. But a 8 year old system with all the proficiencies versus a brand new system. I still remember playing Gun on the 360 and on the Xbox...not much difference. I account that to amazing devs with well known hardware versus amazing devs with new more powerful hardware that they are just learning.
 
L

LowEndTorque

Member
At least we can finally put the spec war to rest. Reading all the wishful thinking and fanboy dreams was fun at first but it got annoying when it regressed into incessant pastebin trolling.
 
C

charsace

Member
Brashnir said:
Cloud Computing is an impossible goal with userbases as large as MS wants to attain. The manufacturing costs don't scale. They'll be able to handle matchmaking and some of the TV stuff in the cloud, but nothing related to rendering graphics.
Click to expand...

Th cloud computing won't be for graphics, but AI can be handled by it.
 
B

Brashnir

Member
Karak said:
So it seems like they are betting the market on it with the financial backing to try. So they must think so. It will be interesting regardless.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. I don't think they have any plans to put anything in the rendering pipeline in the cloud. I think all that talk was for offloading secondary OS tasks to free up local resources. The math just doesn't add up for doing any rendering work outside the box. In modern GPUs, the Speed of Light is an issue that introduces latency just getting data from one side of the GPU to the other. What the hell are the going to do with any data they have to send to a remote machine and back? Forget the internet, the speed of light precludes this.
 
K

Klocker

Member
Brashnir said:
Cloud Computing is an impossible goal with userbases as large as MS wants to attain. The manufacturing costs don't scale. They'll be able to handle matchmaking and some of the TV stuff in the cloud, but nothing related to rendering graphics.
Click to expand...

I guess we will see... the people making games and designing the system speaking today sounded like they were not just "hoping" for it to work but that they have a solution to make it viable.

I guess by this time next year we will be hearing if and how devs leverage this compute power and if it makes a difference between games.

they didn't just mention it, they touted it is a feature that would make the Xbox One's power grow.
 
S

Sipheren

Banned
I think those of you who are convincing yourself the Forza clip looked better than the GT5 one are kind of just wanting to see things that aren't there.

The colours and lighting are more subtle in GT5 so it does lack the flair, but that has always been the case with GT5, they go for realism over flair.

It will be interesting to see how the in-game visuals compare at E3, my money is going on them being very, very similar.

I guess a better question would be, do you all see $500 worth of difference? I know I don't.

nhlducks35 said:
Enjoy your shitty sounds!
Click to expand...


lol, yes, we all know Forza has better sounds (I own them both, they are great games).
 
Karak

Karak

Member
Brashnir said:
I don't think so. I don't think they have any plans to put anything in the rendering pipeline in the cloud. I think all that talk was for offloading secondary OS tasks to free up local resources. The math just doesn't add up for doing any rendering work outside the box. In modern GPUs, the Speed of Light is an issue that introduces latency just getting data from one side of the GPU to the other. What the hell are the going to do with any data they have to send to a remote machine and back? Forget the internet, the speed of light precludes this.
Click to expand...

Not sure. But AMD definitely thinks its possible and so do a good deal of developers. There has been talk of it for a couple years now. But your sort of arguing with the wrong person. People much smarter than me think its the way some of the work will go. Much of it in fact. *shrugs*. We will see.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Everything that's not the car in GT6 is like a flat 2d object. I get what you mean but naw.
 
N

Nafai1123

Banned
Karak said:
So it seems like they are betting the market on it with the financial backing to try. So they must think so. It will be interesting regardless.
Click to expand...

What they were describing just sounds like dedicated servers. "More players" and "bigger environments" doesn't mean graphical processing in the cloud.
 
B

Brashnir

Member
Karak said:
Not sure. But AMD definitely thinks its possible and so do a good deal of developers. There has been talk of it for a couple years now. But your sort of arguing with the wrong person. People much smarter than me think its the way some of the work will go.
Click to expand...

They specifically said in the conference, "non-latency-sensitive work," which pretty much negates any computing that has to be done before rendering a frame.
 
Karak

Karak

Member
Nafai1123 said:
What they were describing just sounds like dedicated servers. "More players" and "bigger environments" doesn't mean graphical processing in the cloud.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Hence my "move some of it". Of course lending that power back to the system. Same thing any system could do of course. Not just MS or anything.
 
J

jaypah

Member
You're all going to hate me but I hope MS focuses heavily on Kinect. While Xbox only gamers will be sacrificed for my motion control joy what can I say? I'm selfish, I know. I'll have a PS4, PC and WiiU to fall back on so if MS wants to turn my living room into some Dave and Busters shit I'm down with that.
 
C

charsace

Member
Sipheren said:
I think those of you who are convincing yourself the Forza clip looked better than the GT5 one are kind of just wanting to see things that aren't there.

The colours and lighting are more subtle in GT5 so it does lack the flair, but that has always been the case with GT5, they go for realism over flair.

It will be interesting to see how the in-game visuals compare at E3, my money is going on them being very, very similar.

I guess a better question would be, do you all see $500 worth of difference? I know I don't.




lol, yes, we all know Forza has better sounds (I own them both, they are great games).
Click to expand...

No, you're wrong. GT6 isn't close to Forza or any other next gen racer. The only thing the two games have in common is that car models can have poly counts that are in the 6 figure range.

Brashnir said:
They specifically said in the conference, "non-latency-sensitive work," which pretty much negates any computing that has to be done before rendering a frame.
Click to expand...

This can be anything. Sound, ai, animation can all be updated at low fps.
 
Karak

Karak

Member
S

specialguy

Banned
Brashnir said:
Cloud Computing is an impossible goal with userbases as large as MS wants to attain. The manufacturing costs don't scale. They'll be able to handle matchmaking and some of the TV stuff in the cloud, but nothing related to rendering graphics.
Click to expand...

cloud computing is actually more efficient than dedicated consoles. that's one of it's big advantages.

there's like 30m xbox 360's sold in the usa. on any given night, how many do you think are actually being played? 1m? 2m?

it's more efficient, in a macro view, to serve equivalent computing power to those 2m, then have 30m pay for computing power that sits in a plastic shell and isn't used at any given time for 28m. it's sort of, a more efficient pay-for computing-power-used-only ideal, in theory.

now, when the baseline is everybody has to buy a powerful console to get too the cloud, as the xbox one example, it doesn't totally hold up, but you get the idea. it works better to view as theory, as in onlive where youre basically just paying for some cheap $$49 decoding chip as your "console"
 
C

CosmicGroinPull

Member
Tricky I Shadow said:
No thanks Microsoft. Never has one console stood out from the rest as being the best like this before. PS4 all the way!
Click to expand...


Not that it matters much to me, but I'll take it anyway. Glad Sony is not going with MS' approach, power-wise and console design-wise.


Anyway how much of a power difference are we talking here? PS2-Xbox?
 
8

8GB GDDR5

Neo Member
All this graphics talk in meaningless until we know what GPU the Xbox One has. 8GB GDDR5 isn't going to mean shit when it's paired with a 7850 and a low power processor. Bottlenecks galore.
 
W

Wynnebeck

Banned
Comparing Forza 5 to GT6 is not even apples to apples as you have a car game from a next gen system versus a current gen system. A better comparison would be Drive Club vs. Forza 5 to which Drive Club looks better.
 
Karak

Karak

Member
Y2Kev said:
Everything that's not the car in GT6 is like a flat 2d object. I get what you mean but naw.
Click to expand...

Ok rewatching the Forza clip its better on second viewing but the overal trailer just didn't offer the wow of GT. Though I dislike the GT games I have always been impressed by them.

Forza does look like its doing more. Cool thing is...this is what these games look or will look like on release.
 
B

Brashnir

Member
specialguy said:
cloud computing is actually more efficient than dedicated consoles. that's one of it's big advantages.

there's like 30m xbox 360's sold in the usa. on any given night, how many do you think are actually being played? 1m? 2m?

it's more efficient, in a macro view, to serve equivalent computing power to those 2m, then have 30m pay for computing power that sits in a plastic shell and isn't used at any given time for 28m.

now, when the baseline is everybody has to buy a powerful console to get too the cloud, as the xbox one example, it doesn't totally hold up, but you get the idea. it works better to view as theory, as in onlive where youre basically just paying for some cheap $$49 decoding chip as your "console"
Click to expand...

Onlive also suffers from significant lag, and doesn't have to sync with a local machine doing most of the heavy lifting. Find me a single Onlive server that takes a control input, renders the next frame based on that, and returns the frame within 16.7ms. Hell, find one that does it in 33ms. I'll be waiting.
 
K

Kazuma Kiryu

Member
Y2Kev said:
I'm so frustrated by this power thing. The PS2 came out more than 18 months before the Xbox. The console gen was decided before the Xbox was released; it could have been weaker than the PS2 and it would not have mattered. The whole conversation is meaningless; it does not reveal anything about consumer choices or consumer tastes.

However, if you examine the PS2 in the context in which it was released, you would surely realize that power was a key component of how the system was marketed to consumers. You would know:

  • That the hardware components were given humanizing marketing names like "Emotion Engine" and "Graphics Synthesizer"
  • That the PS2 was reported on in the media as being a supercomputer ("Sadaam Hussein is importing them TO LAUNCH MISSILES!")
  • That the famous "PS9" ad linked the PS2 to a chain of consoles so powerful it became part of your mind
  • That Kutaragi spoke about the PS2 as having "Toy Story like graphics" and that players would "jack into the matrix"

Stop being so intellectually dishonest. The PS2 was a monster when it came out. That power mattered.

Yes, it's true that, "The most powerful console has never won the generation!!!!111" But such an observation is facile and meaningless. The SNES and Genesis went head to head on power. The early days of the PS1 vs. Saturn was nothing but a 3d pissing match. The N64 was all about power and it debuted with a paradigm-shifting 3D title. The Dreamcast was a powerful machine ("it's thinking") and the PS2 came out and blew it away.

Am I saying the most powerful machine wins? No. Am I saying power is very important? Absolutely. Even this generation more consumers chose HD gaming machines than non-HD gaming machines and there is the possibility that the PS3 will close out the gen in first place.

So stahp.
Click to expand...

Fully agree with you, couldn't have said it better.
 
U

USC-fan

Banned
8GB GDDR5 said:
All this graphics talk in meaningless until we know what GPU the Xbox One has. 8GB GDDR5 isn't going to mean shit when it's paired with a 7850 and a low power processor. Bottlenecks galore.
Click to expand...

7770 is a close match.

AS i have have already stated. The ps4 has about a 50% more power when talking about GPU.
 
K

Klocker

Member
Brashnir said:
Anything over 16.7ms is going to arrive too late for the next frame.

Ever had a server ping under 17ms in a multiplayer game?
Click to expand...

but offloading things like parts of environments or peripheral players, npcs and whatnot, that are not instant game-result critical can leverage power can it not, in your estimation?

If that means even a 10-15% increase over what is possible with just the hardware alone would that not make the system more powerful in general when utilizing that compute power?
 
I

i-Lo

Member
8GB GDDR5 said:
All this graphics talk in meaningless until we know what GPU the Xbox One has. 8GB GDDR5 isn't going to mean shit when it's paired with a 7850 and a low power processor. Bottlenecks galore.
Click to expand...

This post is just... lol.

Man you know so much, looks like Sony should have hired you instead of myriad of engineers with multiple disciplines to develop for PS4.

Clutch at dem straws.
 
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