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NBA 2016-2017 Season |OT| What do the Liberty Bell and Ben Simmons have in Common?

T

Tommy DJ

Member
XiaNaphryz said:
I had to jump into a fantasy baseball draft after the first quarter ended...the Spurs lost?!?! With that first quarter lead? :(
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Warriors have good defense, the Spurs big men can't handle the Warriors pick and roll, and the Spurs offensive has been a complete wildcard this entire season. Doesn't help that Parker is almost a complete liability at this point.

I dunno why Popovich kept Gasol in for so long. He's far better offensively than Dedmon but having Gasol in with LMA or Parker is a pick and roll sieve.
 
T

TTG

Member
Fjordson said:
David West has been great lately. Tonight another example of how the bench is actually better this year than last year.
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That's an interesting subject. Livingston is considerably worse. Ian Clark is at least as good as 2016 Barbosa. West and McGee over Speights and Ezeli?
 
M

Misterhbk

Member
This is by far my favorite win of the season. Steph outplaying Russ, Harden and Kawhi. Kawhi being on a SEGABABA.
8/9 games GS has held teams to 100 or less.
 
F

Fjordson

Member
TTG said:
That's an interesting subject. Livingston is considerably worse. Ian Clark is at least as good as 2016 Barbosa. West and McGee over Speights and Ezeli?
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Ian Clark has been playing much better than Barbosa ever did, McCaw has had good stretches, Iguodala playing the best he has in a few years and West >>>> Ezeli and Varejao. Even Javale has been a positive for the most part.

To be fair, part of it is helped by Kerr staggering a bit more this year with the stars, but the talk early in the year about GS sacrificing a ton of depth to get KD hasn't really panned out imo.

As of now, the bench is second in the entire league in net rating behind San Antonio. And it's higher than the bench rating last year.
 
T

TTG

Member
Fjordson said:
To be fair, part of it is helped by Kerr staggering a bit more this year with the stars, but the talk early in the year about GS sacrificing a ton of depth to get KD hasn't really panned out imo.
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I still remember Zaza and West looking like complete ass in pick and roll coverage earlier this year too clearly, but it's not a ton. If KD can move in the finals that will save Iggy from Lebron for the most part as well. So they essentially only gave up pick and roll defense, but that was going away regardless with how Bogut's last year has turned out. Speights' instant offense is better than McGee in that he doesn't need the starting unit to be effective.

tldr, it's different, not worse and Durant hasn't got much to do with it.
 
O

offtopic

He measures in centimeters
3 games in 4 nights. Back end of a back-to-back. The game the previous night was a complete grind job. Playing on the road. No KD (top 3 player). Spot the 2nd best team in the NBA 20 points.

Win going away. I mean, wtf?
 
B

BlackNMild2k1

Member
offtopic said:
3 games in 4 nights. Back end of a back-to-back. The game the previous night was a complete grind job. Playing on the road. No KD (top 3 player). Spot the 2nd best team in the NBA 20 points.

Win going away. I mean, wtf?
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Warriors were showing the Cavs how the switch is flipped?
 
finowns

finowns

Member
Fjordson said:
Ian Clark has been playing much better than Barbosa ever did, McCaw has had good stretches, Iguodala playing the best he has in a few years and West >>>> Ezeli and Varejao. Even Javale has been a positive for the most part.
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Ughh... F Ezeli. When Kerr put him in during last couple minutes of the finals game I knew it was over. I said DON'T PUT HIM IN.. Kerr didn't listen.
 
F

Fjordson

Member
finowns said:
Ughh... F Ezeli. When Kerr put him in during last couple minutes of the finals game I knew it was over. I said DON'T PUT HIM IN.. Kerr didn't listen.
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Yeah, Ezeli regressed. And I imagine part of it was his knees.

Like just imagine if Warriors had tried to run it back with the same roster. No KD and Bogut and Ezeli at center. Bogut has been absolute trash and Ezeli didn't play a single game this year before getting his third knee surgery within the last four years.

Getting Durant was a blessing for the Dubs in multiple ways. The thought of giving Barnes max money + still having the corpses of Bogut and Ezeli on the books is frightening.
 
H

Hyperactivity

Banned
The main thing about the dubs bench regressing was their center quality, for setting screens/defense, got worse, but that was happening with the bogut and Ezekiel injuries anyways, and perhaps more importantly, iguodala struggling offensively, aging quite a it. If iguodala is really back to his old self offensively, then Clark has gotten much better, the bench's center rotation is better overall, although not really for choosing one specific one to start, and they have one more star to play with
 
T

True Savior

Member
Warriors are just better than the Spurs. The 2014 team would make it but this ain't the same team. They just lack quality in the wing/guards units. No godly ball movement will change that.
 
M

Monochromaticx

Member
Gully State said:
3i3qhSY.png
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That was embarrassing
 
S

Servbot24

Banned
I think it's dumb and arbitrary that team record gets factored into MVP voting. It matters enough for Harden to get votes doesn't matter enough for Kawhi to get votes?
 
R

rambis

Banned
Servbot24 said:
I think it's dumb and arbitrary that team record gets factored into MVP voting. It matters enough for Harden to get votes doesn't matter enough for Kawhi to get votes?
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It helps to weed out empty stats. I think there should definitely be a floor at the least for wins in the discussion.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Jacce said:
OKC needed to be a top 3 seed. Finishing at the 6 seed killed his chances at MVP.
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If Harden's Rockets also finished top 3-4 I'd still have him over Russ. Harden has been way more efficient and that for me more than makes up for being a few ticks behind in the triple double stats. The triple double thing is a nice narrative, but just like the Triple Crown in baseball it's overrated and a poor way to analyze and compare players. Wanting to hand Russ the MVP on the strength of the Triple Double (would he be a significantly worse or less deserving player if he didn't blatantly stat pad and averaged one or two less rebounds per game?) is like when people voted Miguel Cabrera the Baseball MVP even though Mike Trout was and is a far better and more valuable player.
 
R

Ripenen

Member
rambis said:
It helps to weed out empty stats. I think there should definitely be a floor at the least for wins in the discussion.
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Simmons made a point the other day on his podcast that historically the MVP has always been from a team that's a contender to win the championship. That's his argument against Westbrook but it also raises the question, are the Rockets really a contender?
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Ripenen said:
Simmons made a point the other day on his podcast that historically the MVP has always been from a team that's a contender to win the championship. That's his argument against Westbrook but it also raises the question, are the Rockets really a contender?
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They have the third best record in the entire league. If that's not a contender I don't know what is.
 
J

Jacce

Banned
Ripenen said:
Simmons made a point the other day on his podcast that historically the MVP has always been from a team that's a contender to win the championship. That's his argument against Westbrook but it also raises the question, are the Rockets really a contender?
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Rockets are without question a contender. Top 3 seed with as many wins as they have? Yes. Are the likely to beat the Warriors? No, but they have a chance. OKC does not.
 
R

Ripenen

Member
Jacce said:
Rockets are without question a contender. Top 3 seed with as many wins as they have? Yes. Are the likely to beat the Warriors? No, but they have a chance. OKC does not.
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The Rockets are ranked in the middle of the pack for defensive efficiency right now. OKC is actually in the top 10, and Warriors and Spurs are at the best in the league. Looking at that you could almost eliminate the Rockets right now. It's not unheard of but it is pretty rare for a championship team to not have a defense at least in the top 10. Harden is not really helping them on the defensive end. One could suggest that diminishes his value if a lack of defense is in fact what ends up keeping them out of the championship.

Just playing devil's advocate here. Of course I don't think Harden can shoulder all the blame for their mediocre defense and certainly without him they'd be much worse off overall.
 
C

Chase17

Member
Harden's the MVP, but if he somehow manages to hit 500 TOV it should just automatically go to Lebron lol

I think that would take like 8 a game at this point so it wont happen.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Ripenen said:
The Rockets are ranked in the middle of the pack for defensive efficiency right now. OKC is actually in the top 10, and Warriors and Spurs are at the best in the league. Looking at that you could almost eliminate the Rockets right now. It's not unheard of but it is pretty rare for a championship team to not have a defense at least in the top 10. Harden is not really helping them on the defensive end. One could suggest that diminishes his value if a lack of defense is in fact what ends up keeping them out of the championship.

Just playing devil's advocate here. Of course I don't think Harden can shoulder all the blame for their mediocre defense and certainly without him they'd be much worse off overall.
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You can't really pull the defense card against Harden in favor of Westbrook when Russ is frequently and blatantly ignoring his man so that he can pad his rebounding stats.
 
R

Ripenen

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
You can't really pull the defense card against Harden in favor of Westbrook when Russ is frequently and blatantly ignoring his man so that he can pad his rebounding stats.
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I don't think I'd argue Westbrook over Harden. My original question about Westbrook getting it at this point was more about the perception and how things are leaning currently. I personally wouldn't pick either one as the MVP. Just find it interesting to see why people choose the person they do for MVP.
 
L

Line_HTX

Member
I missed out on the stupid shit Marc Jackson said. Who fucking cares what the Rockets Twitter says and what Harden pictures it puts up? Quit barking up the wrong tree.

"Disrespecting the game" my ass. What a joke. Hope Van Gundy smacked that down.
 
A

Atomic Playboy

Member
MVP voters make mistakes all the time. People talk about Oscar Robertson's triple-double season to this day, 55 years later, because it only now might be achieved again. Did Oscar win the MVP that season? No, of course not. That would be good old reliable Bill Russell (18.9, 23.6, 4.5), who was clearly inferior in statistics to both Oscar (30.8, 12.5 and 11.4) and Wilt (MOTHERFUCKING 50.4 PPG, 25.7, 2.4)... but hey, the Celtics are winners. Never mind that no one brings up Russell's 61-62 campaign anymore, whereas Oscar's triple double season and Wilt's "best scoring average in NBA history" season still come up in stats analysis every few years, mainly under the guise of "we may literally never see this again." Looking back with 55 years of history to guide us, Bill Russell's 61-62 campaign didn't stand the test of time the way Oscar's or Wilt's did. Harden's won't in comparison to Westbrook's. So, sure, give Harden the MVP. But five decades from now, everyone will still know that you were wrong.
 
M

my name is ed

Banned
Lionel Richie said:
Westbrook is also a better defender than Harden by pretty much every metric.
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Westbrook is definitely a more capable defender, but not by much this season. His defense has been atrocious. He'll leave assignments and barely contest to hunt for rebounds. OKC's defense is pretty much just reliant on Roberson being a top 5 wing defender and Adams as a defensive anchor.
 
Lionel Richie

Lionel Richie

Member
my name is ed said:
Westbrook is definitely a more capable defender, but not by much this season. His defense has been atrocious. He'll leave assignments and barely contest to hunt for rebounds. OKC's defense is pretty much just reliant on Roberson being a top 5 wing defender and Adams as a defensive anchor.
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No doubt he's not without flaws, but advanced metrics like him better than Harden and frankly so does the eye test. Harden is the better offensive player, Kawhi is the better defender and Westbrook is the more balanced of the three. That's like a 90s beat 'em up character selection choice, can't find fault with any.
 
R

Ripenen

Member
Lionel Richie said:
No doubt he's not without flaws, but advanced metrics like him better than Harden and frankly so does the eye test. Harden is the better offensive player, Kawhi is the better defender and Westbrook is the more balanced of the three. That's like a 90s beat 'em up character selection choice, can't find fault with any.
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Of the three would Harden's defense be the biggest liability?
 
B

Bread

Banned
Atomic Playboy said:
MVP voters make mistakes all the time. People talk about Oscar Robertson's triple-double season to this day, 55 years later, because it only now might be achieved again. Did Oscar win the MVP that season? No, of course not. That would be good old reliable Bill Russell (18.9, 23.6, 4.5), who was clearly inferior in statistics to both Oscar (30.8, 12.5 and 11.4) and Wilt (MOTHERFUCKING 50.4 PPG, 25.7, 2.4)... but hey, the Celtics are winners. Never mind that no one brings up Russell's 61-62 campaign anymore, whereas Oscar's triple double season and Wilt's "best scoring average in NBA history" season still come up in stats analysis every few years, mainly under the guise of "we may literally never see this again." Looking back with 55 years of history to guide us, Bill Russell's 61-62 campaign didn't stand the test of time the way Oscar's or Wilt's did.
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Being the greatest defender of all time doesn't really show up on the stat sheet
 
T

TTG

Member
I think it's between Harden and Lebron and with Cleveland having a poor end to the season it's going to be Harden.

I'm a Warriors fan, so you can claim a natural bias against Westbrook, but I'm not into his blatant stat padding. He's 6th in defensive rebounds in the league trading places with Gobert for 5th recently. Besides that it's Westbrook being Westbrook, which is excellent, but not an mvp this year.

Kawhi isn't there offensively. He's scoring better this year at just under 26 a game and it's efficient, but I'm gonna go with the cliche TNT crew criticism: he's not making those around him better. He does most of his scoring on isos and a lot of it is mid range, so that's what it's going to be. Even if he gets a hard double team, he's unable to take advantage the way Lebron can. The best offensive players in the league have a gravity around them, they create open looks. You saw the difference yesterday when Curry looked like his previous self for the first time in a long while. He makes the opposing team play 4 on 3 when he's on. He also needs the right match up to shine defensively. If he's playing Cleveland he's invaluable, but what about a team like the Clippers? Then he's just chasing JJ Redick around for 40 minutes.
 
H

Hyperactivity

Banned
Atomic Playboy said:
MVP voters make mistakes all the time. People talk about Oscar Robertson's triple-double season to this day, 55 years later, because it only now might be achieved again. Did Oscar win the MVP that season? No, of course not. That would be good old reliable Bill Russell (18.9, 23.6, 4.5), who was clearly inferior in statistics to both Oscar (30.8, 12.5 and 11.4) and Wilt (MOTHERFUCKING 50.4 PPG, 25.7, 2.4)... but hey, the Celtics are winners. Never mind that no one brings up Russell's 61-62 campaign anymore, whereas Oscar's triple double season and Wilt's "best scoring average in NBA history" season still come up in stats analysis every few years, mainly under the guise of "we may literally never see this again." Looking back with 55 years of history to guide us, Bill Russell's 61-62 campaign didn't stand the test of time the way Oscar's or Wilt's did. Harden's won't in comparison to Westbrook's. So, sure, give Harden the MVP. But five decades from now, everyone will still know that you were wrong.
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I'm really not sure about that, but ok, whatever. I guess 29/8/11 is pretty unremarkable now. I also guess that a player single-handedly bringing his team to a projected 48-34 record (would be 10th best in the league) is somehow better than a player single-handedly bringing his team to a projected 56-26 record.

Then again, this IS the same NBA and narrative that gave Harden no All-NBA honors despite a 29/6/7.5 season, so who knows?

Ripenen said:
Russ has to win the MVP after last night, right?
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What, going by this, 53/16/17 on 14 less shots should have locked this up a LONG time ago.

Bread said:
Being the greatest defender of all time doesn't really show up on the stat sheet
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Russell somehow managed to become underrated, because he wanted to make his team win.

For one, iirc, if you take into account how blocks weren't tracked, and try and make a projection, Russel and Wilt (Russel first) destroy Hakeem's all-time record for blocks.

But yeah, I mean, a major part of that season not being as memorable is that he won ELEVEN RINGS. That's eleven years where he is the star player for a championship team, and you think any one of them is gonna stand out, compared to an overall period of more than a decade's worth of dominance?
 
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