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Nearly fourteen years since the two most controversial episodes of modern Star Trek
- Thread starter Mama Robotnik
- Start date
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Yeah, I'm not hating on the Tuvix episode. Just reclassifying the kind of transporter accident.
Also, the Good Kirk/Evil Kirk kind of took the opposite angle on the Tuvix episode, with Evil Kirk not wanting to die to restore ordinary Kirk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzW4GR6sClM
Good Kirk seems to believe they'll both live on in the combined form.
i_am_ben
running_here_and_there
no, there was some vulcan mind sex thing where they all gave each other a disease.
Yeah, that was Enterprise. The Vulcans refused to find a cure because they thought it was spread by immorality. I don't think it was really controversial, because it was kind of obvious and ham-fisted, and AIDS was kind of old news by the time Enterprise was on TV.
Never seen it :O Or maybe I'm not just remembering it. Was it from TNG or Original series?
edit. Ah, it was Enterprise, never bothered to watch it, maybe I should give it a shot.
I just realized how Janeway could've fixed the Tuvix problem without murder.
Make an illegal transport-copy of Tuvix. Keep both inside the computer. Use the copy to restore Tuvok and Neelix. Then just have the transporter spit out all three of them. If the two copies of Tuvix are just data in a computer and aren't allowed to differentiate, then you simply made and used a copy of information, and nobody died.
Make an illegal transport-copy of Tuvix. Keep both inside the computer. Use the copy to restore Tuvok and Neelix. Then just have the transporter spit out all three of them. If the two copies of Tuvix are just data in a computer and aren't allowed to differentiate, then you simply made and used a copy of information, and nobody died.
StopMakingSense
Member
Ugh Tuvix. Really the point I stopped giving a damn about Voyager because Janeway was a fucking murderer.
Trent Strong
Banned
Just make a transporter copy of everyone on the ship and keep them inside the computer. Then if anyone dies, just transporter out a copy of them.
They explained that in TNG. The first sentient race in the galaxy seeded planets with life when they found out they were the only life in the galaxy. They designed the DNA of their seeding microbes in such a way that they would lead to similar sentient beings evolving on many worlds, with the hope that they would join together as one big happy family because of looking alike.
They're just non corporeal aliens, no different than Q. The Bajorans are the only ones who see them as gods.
The Dominion War is still the best arc of any Trek, especially since they built it up across the entire series. They first name dropped the Dominion in season 1, and gradually ramped up their involvement in the show from there.
Yeah, I dunno, it just felt like a weak explanation for religious spirit stuff. It was basically God, demons, angels, spirits, planned destines and crazy visions and prophets all explained by "They're just aliens in a wormhole".
Q is meant to be a god like being but he wasn't trapping in some relic and can posses people and has battles with beams of energy. It was also everything to do with Sisko. All the visions and stuff. Normally I can accept Star Trek's explanation for weird shit but not that.
I agree the dominion war was excellent. The war: Awesome. The Emissary: Shit.
Trent Strong
Banned
Oh yeah, I forgot about that episode. That explanation is pretty crazy in its own right though. It's not like you can just throw some humanoid DNA on the primordial ooze and expect humanoids to evolve millions of years later. Not that it matters, it's not like Star Trek needs to be realistic.
In "Our Man Bashir", they have to wipe the entire computer, crippling the station, to store the profiles of 4 people. They would need far more memory than is possible on a starship in the 24th century to do everybody. Given that episode, and the Scotty thing in TNG, it is possible though.
It would be like a video game, you'd come back to life returned to your last "save". Lol.
Better then Hercules in space, well until the space vampires showed up.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Did you miss the episode that confirmed that they're all from a common genetic ancestor alien race?
EDIT: beaten
Mama Robotnik
Member
Regarding the controversial nature of the episodes, I remember reading some reactions at the time of considerable disappointment and the occasional condemning post on newsgroups, but Google has not helped me find specific examples. Maybe I'm misremembering the impact the two episodes had. I know that Section 31 and the murder of Vreenak come up regularly as points of contention on Trek forums, probably more than any other open threads.
The Section 31 reveal shocked me. Trek had until this point used the supposed enlightened and advanced moral drive of humanity as the force that can overcome the sinister machinations of all the other races. With Section 31 now established as existing since the birth of The Federation, we learn that it isn't mankind's advanced goodness that has kept it dominant, moreso its capability for intense subterfuge, manipulation and self-deception, which is on a scale outclassing anything the Romulans/Cardassaians and others were capable of. The Obsidian Order and The Tal Shiar ruled through omnipresence and fear. Section 31 was a much more professional and competent agency, ruling completely invisibly.
Its interesting to compare Sisko's action in Pale Moonlight with the bad guy Admiral of the Week in TNG's Pegasus.
In Pegasus, the Admiral sees the treaty that forbids all development of cloaking technology as a pathetic and foolish concession to the Romulans. And he's completely fucking right! The Romulans have proved to be hate-filled monsters, who have tried to destroy the Federation the Enterprise, and the peace on many many occasions. They frequently ignore the borders when it suits them to do so. They have many, many spies.
And yet the Federation refuses to develop cloaking technology, the most important advancement in ship defence after shields! When you make a stupid concession against an enemy that is STILL TRYING TO DESTROY YOU AT EVERY TURN, its an act of willfull self-destruction and one of the stupidest conceits in the series. The Admiral in Pegasus was spot on, and for his (admittedly questionable) methods, his career was destroyed by Picard and co.
Certainly makes me wonder how Picard would have reacted to Sisko's involvement with Garak in Pale Moonlight.
The Section 31 reveal shocked me. Trek had until this point used the supposed enlightened and advanced moral drive of humanity as the force that can overcome the sinister machinations of all the other races. With Section 31 now established as existing since the birth of The Federation, we learn that it isn't mankind's advanced goodness that has kept it dominant, moreso its capability for intense subterfuge, manipulation and self-deception, which is on a scale outclassing anything the Romulans/Cardassaians and others were capable of. The Obsidian Order and The Tal Shiar ruled through omnipresence and fear. Section 31 was a much more professional and competent agency, ruling completely invisibly.
Its interesting to compare Sisko's action in Pale Moonlight with the bad guy Admiral of the Week in TNG's Pegasus.
In Pegasus, the Admiral sees the treaty that forbids all development of cloaking technology as a pathetic and foolish concession to the Romulans. And he's completely fucking right! The Romulans have proved to be hate-filled monsters, who have tried to destroy the Federation the Enterprise, and the peace on many many occasions. They frequently ignore the borders when it suits them to do so. They have many, many spies.
And yet the Federation refuses to develop cloaking technology, the most important advancement in ship defence after shields! When you make a stupid concession against an enemy that is STILL TRYING TO DESTROY YOU AT EVERY TURN, its an act of willfull self-destruction and one of the stupidest conceits in the series. The Admiral in Pegasus was spot on, and for his (admittedly questionable) methods, his career was destroyed by Picard and co.
Certainly makes me wonder how Picard would have reacted to Sisko's involvement with Garak in Pale Moonlight.
Mama Robotnik
Member
That's funny because in practice it is amazing.
EDIT - including an awesome Garak moment for the Hell of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-jBC6kTdas
Best character in Trek!
Zombie James
Banned
After Voyager, Enterprise, and the last two TNG movies, it needed a break.
John Rabbit
Banned
having just recently gotten back into finishing my watch-through of TNG (for the whatever'th time) i was contemplating giving DS9 another shot having never made it past halfway into the first season.
OP has convinced me not to watch it. i have a huge problem with shattering the idyllic vision of humanity as seen in TNG. if i wanted to watch humans be despicable and treacherous in space i'll watch battlestar.
OP has convinced me not to watch it. i have a huge problem with shattering the idyllic vision of humanity as seen in TNG. if i wanted to watch humans be despicable and treacherous in space i'll watch battlestar.
Coincidentally, the idyllic vision of humanity is the reason why I can't stand most Star Trek
It didn't really need a break, it just needed new blood and quality people at the helm. Rick Berman overstayed his welcome.
The last season of Enterprise was great. Best Trek since DS9 went off the air. And it was basically because they put someone who gave a shit on top of the show. Same goes for the new Star Trek film.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Its you thats missing out on the best that Star Trek has to offer.
Escape Goat
Member
Yeah, having everyone love each other is a lofty ideal but it makes for TERRIBLE drama. You can still have a utopian society and still have people disagree with each other. I guess thats what made DS9 so fresh. Its made quite clear when Sisko and Kira meet that she has no love for the Federation and she doesn't want them there. They work together because they have to but Kira, on several occasions, does what she thinks is best for Bajor and not what Sisko wanted.
This also creates avenues for character development. Kira in Season 1 is NOT Kira in Season 7. Shes softened a bit without losing her edge, she evolved her attitude to realize Federation assistance was necessary. Plus, the whole not being in Starfleet allowed Kira and Odo to do some non-Starfleet stuff.
Primmin: You just can't go beaming on to people's ships and tear apart their cargo bay. its against Starfleet regulations!
Odo: I'm not in Starfleet! Energize!
I enjoyed the last series of Enterprise until it got to the finale.
It was so awful. It had the Spiderman 3 effect of making everything that came before it turn to complete shit.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
I'm surprised there hasn't really been any talks of a new Star Trek series. Abrams' Trek was such a huge hit, it seems like a TV show would be a huge get.
Escape Goat
Member
Audiences get confused or something. Like how they didn't want a Batman to show up on Smallville or have his own show because of Chris Nolan's film Batman being in theaters.
*shrug*
Yeah and guess who came back to make that finale?
Consider it the finale of season 3 instead. I'm sure Rick Berman didn't care about anything that happened in S4 anyways.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
What I've always thought would work would to take a Star Wars Legacy route and have it take place 100-200 years after Voyager. It'd give you enough wiggle room to avoid contradicting either timeline.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
You mean The Next Generation route?
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
benjipwns
Banned
That was Roddenberry's directive. Humanity had evolved to the point they wouldn't have any disagreements!
DS9 added all the alien cast just to get around that and allow conflict.
Escape Goat
Member
Yeah, my point is that it doesn't make for compelling TV. If you want self contained episodes where the reset button is pressed after every episode then it totally works. If you want a long drawn out story it fails.
I've only ever seen Voyager (which I love), a few TNG movies and a few original series episodes.
These two were really great. I loved the drama, and how they managed to keep it sci-fi. You really felt like there was epic space stuff going on, even though they only used a few sets. Overall, it reminded me of the good seasons of Battlestar Galactica!
The acting was up and down, but it was mostly pretty good. On that note...
These two were really great. I loved the drama, and how they managed to keep it sci-fi. You really felt like there was epic space stuff going on, even though they only used a few sets. Overall, it reminded me of the good seasons of Battlestar Galactica!
The acting was up and down, but it was mostly pretty good. On that note...
Yeah, the actual line got a chuckle from me. I thought it was a dream sequence for a few moments, it was that bad.
I always preferred this one: http://youtu.be/6lHgbbM9pu4
Meus Renaissance
Member
What exactly was wrong with Enterprise? I loved everything about it, including the theme tune.
I enjoyed it even though I thought a lot of Season 1 and 2 were stupid.
I really wasn't a fan of the Temporal Cold War. I just hate time travel stories, they never make any sense.
benjipwns
Banned
A lot of the problems with the first two seasons overall (there are some good episodes) compared to the fourth is just in how they handled "we're in the past of Star Trek" aspect. The first two seasons did a lot of "look it's the Borg/Andorians/etc!", "first trip to Risa", "heheh, they don't understand those are the Ferengi!", "the first use of shields!" and so on. They could have really been any kind of alien/planet/tech of the week and the episodes had plenty of Voyager style plots.
Season three gave them a whole purpose that was more grounded (plus it let the show have more of that "out there alone exploring" without running into familiar faces constantly) and wasn't a Voyager style insane EPIC PLOT like the Temporal Cold War was.
And while season four was chock full of fan service they integrated the history of the franchise and also told far better stories with it. The Vulcans, augments, etc. were all pivotal to the story being told in ways that weren't built entirely around only that "this is the first meeting with [x]" or "first time using [x]" or "first time we went to [x]."
Season three gave them a whole purpose that was more grounded (plus it let the show have more of that "out there alone exploring" without running into familiar faces constantly) and wasn't a Voyager style insane EPIC PLOT like the Temporal Cold War was.
And while season four was chock full of fan service they integrated the history of the franchise and also told far better stories with it. The Vulcans, augments, etc. were all pivotal to the story being told in ways that weren't built entirely around only that "this is the first meeting with [x]" or "first time using [x]" or "first time we went to [x]."
Well, they also changed some things for no apparent reasons. Like making the Vulcans complete dicks. Season 4 spent a bunch of time repairing some of those problems. The biggest problem with Season 4 is perhaps the attempt to explain the Klingon makeup change, but I actually liked their explanation just fine and it didn't really hurt anything. Hell, it even kind of explained why the Klingons in TOS were more cunning and less violent than in TNG.
I think they did that partially because DS9 already opened that door (in the baseball episode), but DS9 suggested that it was an unusual thing, that one specific Vulcan took every opportunity to be as big a dick as possible to one specific Human (Sisko), which was an illogical behavior thought to be not possible for Vulcans, so most people didn't believe Sisko when he told them about it, preferring to think that he was just imagining things.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
The reason why Star Trek was even allowed to deteriorate into that condition was because of over-saturation: successful series such as Star Trek that go on for too long eventually become too self-referential, unimaginative, and reliant upon the ideas and people with whom they became successful in the first place. You rarely have this problem if a series or franchises ends (or at least takes a break) while it's on top. But series rarely go out on top, particularly in sci-fi, because fans always want to learn more about the mythology and universe. The producers stick with the formula long after they've driven it into the ground. Eventually it becomes tiresome. Was Paramount really going to force Berman off of Star Trek after he had made so much money for them? I doubt it.
Anyway, I don't think that the last season of Enterprise is quite as bad as the worst of TNG or DS9, but it still feels like a disappointment to me given the events that it's trying to depict. Far too much of it feels like nothing more than fanfiction - which, I suppose, is an accurate assessment, since they allowed glorified fanfiction writers to contribute to the screenplays. Fanfiction writers always try to explain elements of the mythology in fan-pleasing ways, but it often comes across as absurd.
I haven't seen it, but frankly I'm less 'shocked' and more disappointed that a show so acclaimed as DS9 seemed to roll out the tired old 'shadow organisation' schtick. Its like every bloody scifi show has one, doing 'whats good for the country/planet', operating outside the law. blah blah blah.
that second episode sounds good though. Depending on how you've come to know sisko in the seasons so far that could be pretty strong stuff.
that second episode sounds good though. Depending on how you've come to know sisko in the seasons so far that could be pretty strong stuff.
Mama Robotnik
Member
Chuck Sonnerberg (SFDebris) is one of my favourite Science Fiction video reviewers. He's done a LOT of Trek over the years, discussing the smarter aspects of good episodes and mocking with fury the stupid aspects of stupid episodes. He releases a new video usually every Saturday (roughly ten minutes long) reviewing a random Trek ep. He also covers Babylon 5, The X-Files, Doctor Who, Battlestar and Red Dwarf among others. I like his work a lot.
Today he's re-uploaded his review and followup video for In the Pale Moonlight (last year, this and most of his videos were deleted from YouTube due to overzealous and inaccurate copyright claims). If you are a fan of the episode, its a really nice companion piece to it.
http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/ds9-in-the-pale-moonlight-review-5890463
http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/in-the-pale-moonlight-follow-up-5890552
(If you want to see him eviscerate a truly shit shit shit episode, check out his ruthless video on the offensive and repulsive "Code of Honor").
Today he's re-uploaded his review and followup video for In the Pale Moonlight (last year, this and most of his videos were deleted from YouTube due to overzealous and inaccurate copyright claims). If you are a fan of the episode, its a really nice companion piece to it.
http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/ds9-in-the-pale-moonlight-review-5890463
http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/in-the-pale-moonlight-follow-up-5890552
(If you want to see him eviscerate a truly shit shit shit episode, check out his ruthless video on the offensive and repulsive "Code of Honor").
Zombie James
Banned
sfdebris does damn good reviews... except for the first version of his Wrath of Khan review, way too much Moby Dick reading.
SF shows are, if anything, usually pushed off the air *before* their prime. Not sure why you think they all go on too long. It's pretty rare for any of them to make it past 2 seasons without a major retool, and then they die in their third if they get there. Most of the exceptions end around season 5 with only Trek and Doctor Who really pushing beyond that barrier.
As for pushing Berman off, well, the BBC managed to push producers off Who even in the heyday to make way for new blood. Granted that the last people in charge did a major fuck up job on the whole thing that killed the show for a decade+. But the thing is that in both Trek and Who's case, the break only served to allow new blood to take the reigns. It wasn't the break that was needed, it was the new blood.
Mama Robotnik
Member
I didn't mind that so much, I think he was trying to push the point that people who argue Star Trek: The Motion Picture is somehow a more cerebral piece than The Wrath Of Khan, are wrong.
TMP is a plodding and self-indulgent recycling of an adequate episode of the original series. TWOK has some incredible character reflection and literary nods, it really is an absolutely masterful movie.
I think reading from Moby Dick was a nice way of showing the shared themes, but I can understand if some found it to be a bit jarring.
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