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Neil DeGrasse Tyson: "Agnostic"

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in tyson's comment response in the blog linked earlier, he states that he often only says these things in response to other people's questions. in another source, he stated that 'atheists tried to claim him as their own'. if someone persisted in calling you "black" in situations that were pretty irrelevant to the topic, would you also not have a reason to ask that person to stop calling you black?

sure tyson may technically be an atheist, but that point is fairly irrelevant to him and his job as a scientist. it is unnecessary to call him that, and the original video may likely just be a rant to ask people to stop calling him that. and for what it's worth, i don't think theres very much reason to be calling him black all the time either. neil degrasse tyson, black atheist scientist... like, really?

the main point is that in the video posted, he doesn't just say "yes technically I'm an atheist, but my primary identity is a scientist, and that will always be my #1 focus". That would be honest, straightforward, and clear-cut, without unnecessarily dumping on anyone.

Instead, He takes a rather straightforward question about his stance on god, goes out of his way to use a less accurate label (I thought he didn't like those?), and then also decides to make other negative remarks about atheists, and feed into the negative stereotypes that he claims to want to avoid.

That's what he's getting called out on. No one's saying that he has to go around calling himself "black atheist scientist", but he also doesn't have to disparage the idea of being an atheist either or further those misconceptions.
 

RagnarokX

Member
this thread still goin on?


can't atheism mean more than simply "lack of a belief in the existence of god"?

if we take the word "american", that means someone who is simply an american citizen, right? but people attach more meaning to it using it to describe things that characterize america. alongisde that usage of the term, people have also created the term "un-american".

Uh American is an adjective meaning "things from America," not "people from America." That includes concepts, trends, and other non-human things.

To use your example it would be like an American citizen saying he's not American because "American" is incorrectly associated with a negative stereotype, but he still lives in the USA, retains his citizenship, and supports his country.
 
That would be creating a generalization. When you do that, it stops applying to everyone accurately. How is this beneficial?
being american and being "american" are two different things. it can be used either to describe someone who is an american citizenship or someone who characterizes american values. i never said it was benficial, but words cannot have multiple meanings and usages?
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
being american and being "american" are two different things. it can be used either to describe someone who is an american citizenship or someone who characterizes american values. i never said it was benficial, but words cannot have multiple meanings and usages?

Would anyone want to refer to themselves as something that has a second meaning which implies something they don't agree with?
The problem with your example is addressed by RagnarokX.
 
Would anyone want to refer to themselves as something that has a second meaning which implies something they don't agree with?
The problem with your example is addressed by RagnarokX.
the point is to use that version only when you want to imply those very things...

he does not address usages such as "very american" and "un-american". by your definition, either someone or something is american or non-american, right?
 

Suzaku

Member
LOL... wow, some people cannot understand that some words have two different and sometimes conflicting definitions.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
Is english not your first language?

I ask because I'm not sure why you are having such trouble with my comment.

Seems like this is happening to everyone in the thread.

the point is to use that version only when you want to imply those very things...

he does not address usages such as "very american" and "un-american". by your definition, either someone or something is american or non-american, right?

If they're both the same word, how would anyone ever know which you meant if the context didn't provide enough information? And even when it does, people seem to ignore it. There's no point in going in this direction with the argument. If you're not from america, you're not american. If something doesn't have american qualities, it's not american when that meaning is implied. They don't conflict, so there's no potential for confusion. Noun and adjective.
 
I must have missed something. Unless you mean I'm being sensitive. Which I don't think is the case. Otherwise spell it out to my dumb ass please, I'm curious.

Ok.

Here is your comment:

Add sensitive to the list of things atheists should stop being. For a bunch of people who believe in nothing they're awful touchy.

Here is my response:

Even if we accept your premise as being true (lol), the second sentence contains elements that are not in any way contradictory.


By "premise" I am referring to the first sentence in your comment. See above.

By "second sentence" I mean the second sentence in your post.

By "elements that are not in anyway contradictory" I refer to the two components of your second sentence: "believe in nothing" and "awfully touchy."
 

RagnarokX

Member
Ok.

Here is your comment:



Here is my response:




By "premise" I am referring to the first sentence in your comment. See above.

By "second sentence" I mean the second sentence in your post.

By "elements that are not in anyway contradictory" I refer to the two components of your second sentence: "believe in nothing" and "awfully touchy."
So you're saying... he likes to touch himself? Grow up, Count!

To elaborate further just in case: Not believing in a god has nothing to do with having emotions.
 
I was going for the, you assert nothing, so you don't really have anything to defend, therefore, there's nothing to really be sensitive to. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Which comes back to the oddly zealous nature of atheists you find. It's like being impassioned by carrots.
 
I was going for the, you assert nothing, so you don't really have anything to defend, therefore, there's nothing to really be sensitive to. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Here's what I'm driving at: your comment did not make sense and I pointed that out. That's what this has been about. It was odd that you had such trouble parsing that and that is why I asked if english was not your first language.

Bonus explanation: RagnarokX's joke is predicated on your record of completely misreading what I have written.

If you have any other questions about this exchange, feel free to ask.
 

RagnarokX

Member
I was going for the, you assert nothing, so you don't really have anything to defend, therefore, there's nothing to really be sensitive to. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Which comes back to the oddly zealous nature of atheists you find. It's like being impassioned by carrots.

Just because agnostic atheists do not believe in god and do not purport to know that there is no god does not mean that they do not care when people claim to know contrary to evidence or condone an incorrect negative image of the concept.

Atheist does have an incorrect image in this country. It is unpopular to call yourself atheist. NDT not accepting that he is atheist basically throws the rest of us under the bus and condones the overgeneralization of atheists as militant gnostic atheists.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
I was going for the, you assert nothing, so you don't really have anything to defend, therefore, there's nothing to really be sensitive to. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Which comes back to the oddly zealous nature of atheists you find. It's like being impassioned by carrots.

Except when people accuse you of asserting something when you're not, you still have to defend that you're not. With each reply it becomes more difficult to tell if you're joking or not.
 
simpsons1lh5.jpg
 
I still think you're dodging my point. Which was already stated better by an astrophysicist. All of this seems to be about yelling the straight facts and proving people are idiots and wrong. Which is a waste of time and just leads to fellating each other for belonging to the same group.

How appropriate the argument devolved into some etymological bullshit 5 pages ago.

Also, no fucking sense of humor either. Christ.
 
I approach the meaning of the words theist and atheist in the simplest way I possibly can. I think everyone would agree that a theist is a person who believes in a god or gods.

Then we add the prefix "a":

a- or ( before a vowel ) an- 1

— prefix
not; without;

This gives us atheist. An atheist is any person who is not a theist. As in, a "not a [person who believes in a god or gods]/theist" or "a person without [belief in a god or gods]/theism."

Then people somehow get the idea that instead, atheist means "a person who believes it is impossible for a god to exist." Where does this come from? The structure of the word implies it in no way.

Okay, so your concept stems from a basic principle:

A morphological relecture (which I do not know if it is correct by english language standards since atheos would be the stem, and theos the root) of the word. But it is linguistically valid (I assume). Fair enough.

But now to address that "people somehow get the idea":

These words and its definitions are more than 500 years old. They weren't conceived in english. They are structured to nominate concepts to give better grounds as to discuss those topics.
I've shown (anyone with authority in linguistics could confirm, but the etymology dictionary, morphology, stanford philosophy, and wikitionary agrees) how those words came to be. A quick search for its etymology might help you.
And that meaning you don't understand "how one gets the idea" was widely used by popular writers on philosophy. Russell, Feuerbach, Hume, Huxley. Wouldn't it be funny to question on how incorrect they were because they did not have the foresight to do a relecture of the word an notice how wrong they were?

On the subject of agnosticism, things got even funnier, where some questioned the use by Neil. He cited Huxley. Who created the word agnosticism. With the purpose as cited.
I posted Huxley's text a few pages back.

But see, I don't reject the new concepts for the words you guys propose. What I reject is your rejection of the prior and original concepts. Even worst, qualifying it as wrong because of some ignorant (not derrogatory) reread.

But it seems even defending this new concept has a great value with the second part apparently clarifies a lot to me, but I may be reading you entirely wrong.

The best answer I can think of is societal pressures. The reality of the situation is that there's a lot of hostility between theists and atheists because it's such a fundamental disagreement with a large potential impact on a great number of lives. Some people have a strong aversion to this hostility and wanted nothing more than to distance themselves from either side. Though in reality it is impossible to be neither an atheist nor a theist, they proceeded to attempt to create a way to escape this reality. In walks so-called "Agnosticism," the perfect happy land where you don't have to commit to anything and never have to admit whether or not you believe in a god or gods. This preference of classification becomes popular because people see it as a way to dodge any religious argument and somehow wedges itself between theism and atheism. But wait, this is nonsense! By the established definition, anyone claiming not to be a theist instantly becomes an atheist, whether they like it or not. In fact, agnosticism by definition has no affiliation with belief in a deity at all, and is merely a statement of whether you think something is knowable and can be applied to any number of concepts. That's not going to stop the "Agnostics" from outright denying this, because leaving their constructed safe zone is potential social suicide. It's far easier to say things like "I used to be an atheist, but I realized they were all rude and I want nothing to do with them" than it is to admit that they truly do not believe in a god.

Enter personalities with celebrity status such as Sagan or Tyson. Their desire to avoid upsetting anyone is possibly greater than that of anyone else, because there's no benefit to be found in alienating a part of your audience when your goal is to bring science to everyone. It serves no purpose to attempt to explain that atheism alone doesn't claim absolute knowledge against a god or become equivalent to anti-theism, because then they're just going to upset all of the angry theists who have an issue with atheists because their religion teaches them atheism is morally wrong. The path of least resistance is to join the Agnostic group, regardless of whether it is a legitimate position on belief. Then only the tiniest number out of the potential millions of viewers will be upset because calling yourself agnostic is so common at this point that the majority of the population doesn't even realize that it isn't a legitimate position on belief.

Then you get the masses of people coming into this thread saying things like "totally agree, agnosticism is best, all atheists are annoying" and so forth because of how easily perpetuated the generalizations are when respected members of society adhere to them. By popularizing this false concept of agnosticism, they're effectively changing the definition of atheism primarily for the gain of people who attempt to avoid taking sides or participating in debates or discussions.

Earlier in the thread, someone said Tyson's response is the "let it be" answer. I disagree. The "let it be" answer is actually saying let it be. It's entirely acceptable not to answer a question for the sake of protecting your image. What's not acceptable is joining a group whose solution to the debate is to turn everyone willing to hold a stance into a stereotype characterized as assholes.


I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

It appears to me that Atheism must have a strong sense and be as broad as possible, so 1) It characterizes itself, and 2) It isn't perceived as the effort of few.
But why? It is engaging in a battle against social perception it seems.
Which produces one interesting line of thought to me.
Does self-labeled atheists want Atheism to be something to show it is nothing because a fraction of the populace perceives it as 'something' when it is actually nothing?
Seems a bit convoluted.

Now this is one huge assumption/hypothesis: Do most of those atheists come from a limitating/opressing/uncooperative religious background? Which most likely presents itself later as a deterrant of well being due to one simple belief (which tends to govern good part of those lives, yet isn't much part of their lives at all)?
A side assumption to that: Being part of something that is supposedly governed by reason surely would make me comfortable as if I advanced in that topic that apparently constructs me.
So I can see their point.

If you confront the people, the institution still stands. If you confront the institution it angers the people. Sad to those who have to feel that pressure on their shoulders.

But if I said I carry the same, or care to carry, I'd be lying.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I still think you're dodging my point. Which was already stated better by an astrophysicist. All of this seems to be about yelling the straight facts and proving people are idiots and wrong. Which is a waste of time and just leads to fellating each other for belonging to the same group.

How appropriate the argument devolved into some etymological bullshit 5 pages ago.

Also, no fucking sense of humor either. Christ.

Your posts are the most humorless and spiteful in the entire thread.
 

jdogmoney

Member
I'm not an atheist, despite the fact that I don't believe in any god. The atheists I know are strident, and British. Instead of an atheist, I'm a koala bear.

I seriously don't understand why this is a difficult concept for people to grasp. If you don't believe in god(s), you are atheist. Is it just a stigma attached to the word "atheist"?
 
I disagree. It seems to me that your explanation makes the assumption that agnosticism is a choice. I don't think it is.

It is a choice. It is a philosophical standpoint. You don't seem to understand that Agnosticism is making a stance about the justification of belief by assessing the truth of any claims.

I understand what you mean by the whole Christians thing, but there are a couple of things to remember. Truth is very much subjective and heavily tied to belief. As such, truth is not necessarily knowledge (this is why people get deceived/FOXnewsed).

Are you trying to say that the truth is relative? The truth is always objective. Ones perception of the truth may be subjective but never is the truth subjective because the truth is binary.

When a Christian believes in God despite evidence to the contrary, this is often seen as the right thing to do (having Faith, as you said). However, this person STILL does not "know" that God does exist. They may believe he does, they may have faith that he does, and they may think that it is true that he exists. But this person is STILL agnostic. If you were to subject them to a "knowledge machine", the result would be agnostic regardless of what they believe/think is true/think is the right thing to do.

Again unlike athiesm, agnosticism is a philosophical stand point. It is an acceptance that there are things that are currently (and maybe forever) unknowable. Some people DO NOT ASCRIBE to the thought process that there are things that are unknown. Some people believe there is a reason for everything therefore can never be considered an agnostic.

A person that has Faith in god (or gods) will claim to KNOW he exists. That is what separates the term faith from mere belief.

The "God works in mysterious ways" quote does indeed imply Agnosticism because if you asked them how they know that God did X, or how he did X, or why he did X, or how they know that God will do X, they'd tell you they don't. They just have faith and they believe it, which to them is a good thing.

No, you still sidestep the issue at hand. The fact remains that statement indicates that they have faith that god exists as a truth. Giving the 5W's about an event does nothing to challenge the assertion that God exists. The "works in mysterious" ways is a free pass to say "I don't know" about the questions you ask without getting them to concede that the existence of god is questionable.
 
Is it just a stigma attached to the word "atheist"?
We have to put it into context. A context where regulating health insurance to cover contraception is considered a strong front in the "War on Religion". Where bullying laws are being fought on the basis of religious freedom and climate science is dismissed because God will provide for us. These are the words and actions of people in power in the United States, a place where a non-religious presidential candidate wouldn't stand a chance.

And people actually wonder why a small few popular atheists are strident and provocative?

Its a matter of balance. When one side goes to an extreme you have the perfect conditions for a counterbalancing influence to arise.
 
What? I don't remember the context of that scene. And don't give me spoilers if it's from Season 2.

I was being facetious, by the way.

"Agnostic is an atheist without balls."

I was like:

"That would make me Varys?... Oh well."

Unfortunately he is just an okay character.
 
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