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NieR Automata was made in less than 2 years! That's really impressive

Gbraga

Member
Most of route B is stretched out over the same content as route A, its still in his work philosophy clearly even if its not as much as making you replay the entire game over again with most of the same content like in D1 or Nier.

We shoulden't mince words and try and made Nier A into something its not. Its a work clearly on a very constrained budget and development period and so they obviously have to make common sense cutbacks on what they can do and such compared to other games. Its not a negative, its just a fact.

Of course it has limitations, but the ending structure is not one of them.

Just take Route A, add the parts of B that are not in A, and then add Route C. Do you think the game is unacceptably short? Because this is a ridiculous idea, to me.

Sure, you can argue that the parts that B and A share are padding, but I have a really hard time to see it as just trying to justify a price tag. On the contrary, most people who didn't like B say that the game would be better without it, and without adding anything instead. So they clearly don't think length would be an issue.
 

Momentary

Banned
Well it's completely undercooked from a tech and design perspective, so doesn't seem like the much of an achievement to me.

I agree in terms of graphical tech used. I mean I love the game, but on PC this game had weird issues with how demanding it was for absolutely no reason. Much of this was due to Global Illumination, but even after altering that the game still seems to be to demanding on hardware compared to the graphical technology it used. MSAA is too demanding and also breaks LOD in the game. AO is also implemented very badly in the game, but the AA solution that was included with it was great. It also had issues with BLOOM causing pixelation and light shafts being heavily pixelated. The textures are also very bad aside from the main character models.

It's not like much went into graphical tech so I'm not surprised that it took less than 2 years.

I really hope they decide to abandon their proprietary engine and go with something a little better on whatever project they decide to tackle next.
 

Timeaisis

Member
It has the same metacritic score as Horizon Zero Dawn.
And? It's a much worse game, in my mind. If the critics overlook the multitude of flaws, that's on them. The issues abound.

Design-wise is 9/10
Maybe if you are only considering the combat and ignoring:
-the bad/plain open world level design with invisible walls everywhere, lack of landmarks, weird gating and complete lack of signposting
-the weak visual design (grey!) of most enemies coupled with the bullet hell nature of encounters, making combat/enemies difficult to read in many instances
-the terrible camera and forced perspective sections (overhead camera during a 3D boss battle! Yeah!!)
-the sidequests which are nothing more than boring travel followed by easier than average combat followed by more boring travel
-boring travel
-poorly paced story beats (the reward for boring travel!)
-incredibly poor moment to moment gameplay except when not in the open world (which is like half the game)
-very sparse open world with very few things in between checkpoints
-repetition of content, and not in a good or interesting way, but in a "I bet you want to see the rest of the story" kind of way.

I could go on. It's maybe a 6/10 if we just consider design. The combat could not save it. If I'm being honest, it would have a much more effective linear charcter action game with a quicky moving story between combat and linear level chapters. The open world brings the entire experience down significantly. It seems like something they did not care about, even though it's like 50% of the game
 

Crayon

Member
One of the most impressive things about it is how it's obviously low budget compared to Zelda and Horizon but stands right up there with them.
 
While it could have benefited from a lot more polish, it is truly impressive how exceptional that game turned out with as little time, budget, and labor as it had.
 

Crayon

Member
And? It's a much worse game, in my mind. If the critics overlook the multitude of flaws, that's on them. The issues abound.


Maybe if you are only considering the combat and ignoring:
-the bad/plain open world level design with invisible walls everywhere, lack of landmarks, weird gating and complete lack of signposting
-the weak visual design (grey!) of most enemies coupled with the bullet hell nature of encounters, making combat/enemies difficult to read in many instances
-the terrible camera and forced perspective sections (overhead camera during a 3D boss battle! Yeah!!)
-the sidequests which are nothing more than boring travel followed by easier than average combat followed by more boring travel
-boring travel
-poorly paced story beats (the reward for boring travel!)
-incredibly poor moment to moment gameplay except when not in the open world (which is like half the game)
-very sparse open world with very few things in between checkpoints
-repetition of content, and not in a good or interesting way, but in a "I bet you want to see the rest of the story" kind of way.

I could go on. It's maybe a 6/10 if we just consider design. The combat could not save it. If I'm being honest, it would have a much more effective linear charcter action game with a quicky moving story between combat and linear level chapters. The open world brings the entire experience down significantly. It seems like something they did not care about, even though it's like 50% of the game

So you are mad that Nier isn't a linear action game.

You said boring travel 14 times. Why not fast travel? The map isn't even big. You can run across the whole hub area in a few minutes.

Maybe you can expound on what makes travel over horizons enormous map so stimulating in comparison.
 

Gbraga

Member
And? It's a much worse game, in my mind. If the critics overlook the multitude of flaws, that's on them. The issues abound.


Maybe if you are only considering the combat and ignoring:
-the bad/plain open world level design with invisible walls everywhere, lack of landmarks, weird gating and complete lack of signposting
-the weak visual design (grey!) of most enemies coupled with the bullet hell nature of encounters, making combat/enemies difficult to read in many instances
-the terrible camera and forced perspective sections (overhead camera during a 3D boss battle! Yeah!!)
-the sidequests which are nothing more than boring travel followed by easier than average combat followed by more boring travel
-boring travel
-poorly paced story beats (the reward for boring travel!)
-incredibly poor moment to moment gameplay except when not in the open world (which is like half the game)
-very sparse open world with very few things in between checkpoints
-repetition of content, and not in a good or interesting way, but in a "I bet you want to see the rest of the story" kind of way.

I could go on. It's maybe a 6/10 if we just consider design. The combat could not save it. If I'm being honest, it would have a much more effective linear charcter action game with a quicky moving story between combat and linear level chapters. The open world brings the entire experience down significantly. It seems like something they did not care about, even though it's like 50% of the game

I completely disagree with about everything you've said.

Let me elaborate a bit:

-the bad/plain open world level design with invisible walls everywhere, lack of landmarks, weird gating and complete lack of signposting

I personally quite liked the compact world design, which is similar to the first game, but with more connections between multiple areas. The time it takes to enable you to fast travel also helps create a sense of familiarity with the areas, I quickly knew how to navigate in the entire world and the shortest path to each area without needing to consult a map. Each area has its distinct landmarks, and the main area has a pretty considerable event that will become an obvious landmark.

I also like the little stumbles and things like that that make traversal a little more involved than just holding forward. Dodging shit so you won't trip is not exactly amazing gameplay, but it's better than doing absolutely nothing. Each area has its own stories to tell, its own visual and musical identity, and it helped me to establish a good connection with them.

Can't disagree about having a lot of invisible walls, it just didn't bother me that much. Even Witcher 3 has a few places where the game will force you to turn back. It may be more elegant, but it's still an invisible wall. The map is just much larger and it becomes far less noticeable. But as someone who isn't that fond of huge maps, I'm ok with it.

-the weak visual design (grey!) of most enemies coupled with the bullet hell nature of encounters, making combat/enemies difficult to read in many instances

I was actually very worried about the enemy design from watching trailers and presentations, but I think they did a wonderful job in creating enough visual and mechanical variety, while still keeping the same core theme. It worked on its favor, and the "generic stubby machine" is just as much of an iconic character in this game as any other. I do understand your opinion on that, though.

On the other hand, I completely disagree and can't see how enemies would be difficult to read. They borrowed the "eyes flashing red before attacks" mechanic from Rising, and there's no cooldown between dodges. If anything, it's a bit too easy to avoid getting hit.

-the terrible camera and forced perspective sections (overhead camera during a 3D boss battle! Yeah!!)

I think this is an important part of Nier, and I was very glad to see they kept that. There's nothing undercooked about it, though there's also nothing wrong with thinking it's terrible. But surely you can see how that's nothing more than different tastes, rather than an undercooked game from a tech and design perspective?

-the sidequests which are nothing more than boring travel followed by easier than average combat followed by more boring travel

The quest design is indeed very basic, can't argue against that. It's all about how much you care about what's happening in them, and how much fun you have with the core gameplay. But the quest design itself is indeed just fetch quests, with few exceptions.

I also agree that the difficulty balancing is bad. It's my biggest issue with the game, by far. I wish there was a difficulty mode that just disabled leveling so they could balance each encounter with a fixed player level in mind.

I don't think traveling is boring, however, and even the combat having balancing issues, I still think it's very fun and well made. There's a lot more depth to its combo system than people give it credit for.

-boring travel

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-poorly paced story beats (the reward for boring travel!)

Can you give an example? I think the narrative progression of the game is just brilliant, and the way it touches its themes and reflects on the game's world and humanity as a whole, making the player think and draw conclusions by themselves is quite remarkable. And then later in Route C it goes all out with its story, after the mostly relaxed pace of the first two routes. I think the pacing is excellent.

-incredibly poor moment to moment gameplay except when not in the open world (which is like half the game)

You're just listing the same issue multiple times using different words at this point.

-very sparse open world with very few things in between checkpoints

Yeah, it's great, isn't it? I'm much more fond of world design like this with more meaningful content here and there than just going around with things to do all the time, stopping every 3 steps to collect herbs. Thankfully they unlock some chips later on that makes even getting loot more automated.

Oh, and speaking of loot, the itemization is much better, too. Even with the broken difficulty balancing, the weapons you'll find (in fixed places rather than RNG chests) will be much more useful at any given moment than most loot in other RPGs. Getting a new weapon that will be useful throughout the entire game is a much better reward for exploration than getting gear that is too high level at the moment, and by the time you can equip it, your current gear is much better anyway.

The materials you gather also reward your time with just the amount of sidequests you pick up and can instantly deliver, but there's nothing unique about the way this game does it.

-repetition of content, and not in a good or interesting way, but in a "I bet you want to see the rest of the story" kind of way.

Also completely disagree with that. The repetition of content always serves a purpose, and brings something new to the table. And in ways that wouldn't have the same impact without experiencing it from another point of view first.

But it's an understandable complaint, I've seen more people with this opinion as well. Again, nothing to do with being undercooked, it's just not your thing, and that's fine.

We can spend hours listing issues we have with games other people love, but that doesn't mean they're undercooked or whatever, come on.
 

Timeaisis

Member
So you are mad that Nier isn't a linear action game.

You said boring travel 14 times. Why not fast travel? The map isn't even big. You can run across the whole hub area in a few minutes.

Maybe you can expound on what makes travel over horizons enormous map so stimulating in comparison.

Fast travel isn't unlocked out of the gate. And then is re-locked again in Route B until you get it again. And also, you can't fast travel to new places (obviously, you shouldn't be able to do this, but the fact that you must travel still stands). So yes, traveling is boring. Horizon has much more content in between main story quests. I'm not going to get in a "horizon is better than nier" discussion, because that's just full on opinion, and Horizon definitely has some issues with it's open world as well. But Nier has more, in my opinion.
 

Gbraga

Member
Fast travel isn't unlocked out of the gate. And then is re-locked again in Route B until you get it again. And also, you can't fast travel to new places (obviously, you shouldn't be able to do this, but the fact that you must travel still stands). So yes, traveling is boring. Horizon has much more content in between main story quests. I'm not going to get in a "horizon is better than nier" discussion, because that's just full on opinion, and Horizon definitely has some issues with it's open world as well. But Nier has more, in my opinion.

It's full on opinion anyway, I don't see the problem. I didn't play Horizon myself, so it would be nice to know more about how they compare to each other.
 

Timeaisis

Member
You're just listing the same issue multiple times using different words at this point.

I mean, yes, like I said, it's all rooted in the (in my opinion) poor open world design. So yeah, it's kind of all the same issue. But the things it affects are all different. Yes, travel is boring. Yes, in-between main missions is boring because they didn't fill the world with that much stuff (which, again, could have been a thematic decision, but doesn't help the fact that I'm bored for half your game). Yes, the open world is unmemorable and laid out in a way that it's hard to identify paths because everything looks very similar. These, I suppose all fall under the "open world design" category. And yes, that is my main gripe.

I think the combat is very good, and some of the specific missions are very good, but most of the open world is not, and some of the other decisions are not great, as I listed above.

RE: Story. Again, because this is an open world game (whew I'm saying that a lot), the story is at the pace of the player, who is busy moving from point A to B. I admit, if you skip the sidequests, I'm sure the pace is much better, (you'd still have to do a lot of unnecessary traversal, but it'd be less annoying) but it felt like the story is very slowly unfolding, especially in Route A. Then, later (rest of the routes) it often feels like you are grinding your way to a story payoff.

NA seems like it was open world because all games are open world now. Just seemed to actively hurt the overall experience, for me. That, and there are other issues, certainly (camera being a big one, enemy design being the other) but those wouldn't nearly hurt so much if the game was more tightly packed.
 

Arkeband

Banned
And? It's a much worse game, in my mind. If the critics overlook the multitude of flaws, that's on them. The issues abound.


Maybe if you are only considering the combat and ignoring:
-the bad/plain open world level design with invisible walls everywhere, lack of landmarks, weird gating and complete lack of signposting
-the weak visual design (grey!) of most enemies coupled with the bullet hell nature of encounters, making combat/enemies difficult to read in many instances
-the terrible camera and forced perspective sections (overhead camera during a 3D boss battle! Yeah!!)
-the sidequests which are nothing more than boring travel followed by easier than average combat followed by more boring travel
-boring travel
-poorly paced story beats (the reward for boring travel!)
-incredibly poor moment to moment gameplay except when not in the open world (which is like half the game)
-very sparse open world with very few things in between checkpoints
-repetition of content, and not in a good or interesting way, but in a "I bet you want to see the rest of the story" kind of way.

I could go on. It's maybe a 6/10 if we just consider design. The combat could not save it. If I'm being honest, it would have a much more effective linear charcter action game with a quicky moving story between combat and linear level chapters. The open world brings the entire experience down significantly. It seems like something they did not care about, even though it's like 50% of the game

Bro Nier A isn't open-world and it never attempted to be. And quite frankly it would have suffered from it if it went further in that direction because it's a narrative driven game, and open world means you can completely ignore the main narrative and go off and collect moose nipples for 120 hours.
 

Gbraga

Member
I mean, yes, like I said, it's all rooted in the (in my opinion) poor open world design. So yeah, it's kind of all the same issue. But the things it affects are all different. Yes, travel is boring. Yes, in-between main missions is boring because they didn't fill the world with that much stuff (which, again, could have been a thematic decision, but doesn't help the fact that I'm bored for half your game). Yes, the open world is unmemorable and laid out in a way that it's hard to identify paths because everything looks very similar. These, I suppose all fall under the "open world design" category. And yes, that is my main gripe.

I think the combat is very good, and some of the specific missions are very good, but most of the open world is not, and some of the other decisions are not great, as I listed above.

RE: Story. Again, because this is an open world game (whew I'm saying that a lot), the story is at the pace of the player, who is busy moving from point A to B. I admit, if you skip the sidequests, I'm sure the pace is much better, (you'd still have to do a lot of unnecessary traversal, but it'd be less annoying) but it felt like the story is very slowly unfolding, especially in Route A. Then, later (rest of the routes) it often feels like you are grinding your way to a story payoff.

NA seems like it was open world because all games are open world now. Just seemed to actively hurt the overall experience, for me. That, and there are other issues, certainly (camera being a big one, enemy design being the other) but those wouldn't nearly hurt so much if the game was more tightly packed.

But how is it undercooked design when it's all so subjective, and people who loved the game disagree on almost everything?

It's also insane to me when people start talking about "open world for no reason". It's the same structure as the original game, what would be "following other games for no reason" is if it dropped all of that and made the sequel a linear action game instead. This is Nier, not Drakengard, there's nothing random about being structured like a Nier game.

If you go back to the threads right after the announcement, between posts of people incredibly excited that this sequel is even a thing, you'll also find people concerned that Platinum being involved would mean that it's no longer Nier, but just a character action game using that name.

If we didn't have time to spend in that world, with its different areas telling different stories, seeing humanity reflected in the machines and so on, many of the game's themes wouldn't have the same impact. I did all of the side quests and I absolutely think it elevated the experience, because the way this game handles world building is not in the typical way of telling stories of a larger universe. Nier's world is very compact, both designwise but also in narrative. Everything you find out, from sidequest dialogue to the item description for the fish you catch, is used to further develop the main premise of Humans vs Aliens, Androids vs Machines. It'll never start talking about other places of the world, everything adds to the main experience, and to what the characters lived through when shit goes down in the main route.

If you did the Jean-Paul questline, later in Route B when you get to a certain part of the game, having that knowledge will suddenly give a lot more meaning and depth to the themes it's approaching, without adding a single word to it.

In other cases, it does add words to it if you did certain sidequests, because evoking reflection and emotions from the player is their primary concern. The way this game handles its emotional responses, by the way, is nothing short of extraordinary. The game made me genuinely feel bad for the situations themselves, rather than being sad because 2B is sad and I like 2B. The biggest reactions it gets from players are in moments with little melodrama, because it's well designed enough, and they're not afraid to respect the player's intelligence.

And you can obviously disagree about everything I just said, but I'm not trying to change your mind, just explain how different my experience was to yours, and why I think it's completely unfair to call the game undercooked, when it's simply something you particularly didn't like. And it's not like with WET, which is a game I reeeally like but almost no one else does, this game has been receiving a lot of high praise. It must be doing some things very right with its design.
 
Platinum works fast. Always had. I thinking Metal Gear Rising was made in little over a year too. (in that case it kind of shows in spots though)

Scalebound was a real out lier for them with how long that was in the works and not coming together.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Just wanted to cover a couple of these weaker points:

-the weak visual design (grey!) of most enemies coupled with the bullet hell nature of encounters, making combat/enemies difficult to read in many instances

The enemy design is awesome, in my opinion. The robots are cute, and the androids are stylish. That's subjective, of course.

Unless I've misunderstood though, the last part of this point appears to be factually wrong. Enemy attacks are telegraphed both visually and audibly in a very distinctive way. In fact, it's an almost identical system to MGR.

-the terrible camera and forced perspective sections (overhead camera during a 3D boss battle! Yeah!!)

I mean, the forced perspective sections are a conscious decision on the part of the developers, so not an inherent design flaw. You don't have to like it, but it's difficult to mark it down as a design flaw when it appears to be exactly what was intended :D
 

//DEVIL//

Member
Actually I was thinking about this for a while. Could it be why MS decided to pull the plug on scalebound (sp?)

It was announced way more than that and been in development for 3 years and it was no near to be finished . It makes me think the developers weren't really giving it full focus while getting funded by MS this whole time.

It's kinda like true fantasy on Xbox back in the day from level 5

Maybe I am wrong but it seems Japanese developers really abuse MS in that sense.
 

Gbraga

Member
Actually I was thinking about this for a while. Could it be why MS decided to pull the plug on scalebound (sp?)

It was announced way more than that and been in development for 3 years and it was no near to be finished . It makes me think the developers weren't really giving it full focus while getting funded by MS this whole time.

It's kinda like true fantasy on Xbox back in the day from level 5

Maybe I am wrong but it seems Japanese developers really abuse MS in that sense.

Why would they specifically single out Microsoft in their abuse?

It's not because they're western, since Platinum had no issues developing the lower budget titles Activision hired them for, and delivering them on time.

They have multiple teams inside Platinum. Scalebound's director was Hideki Kamiya, who had absolutely nothing to do with NieR: Automata, besides being Yoko's drinking buddy.
 

Majukun

Member
if there's a thing that has kept platinum on business thus far, it's their ability to make things cheap and fast while still producing better results than the average developer studio, so it's hardly surprising.
 
It shows.

I'm not really feeling it at all so far, I'm "just" 6 hours in but it is...like...really, really lame.

If it wasn't for the combat, I prolly would have quit after 6 hours in.

The playable characters look great and are very nicely animated. Everything else looks like a last gen game lol.
 

SephLuis

Member
I would like to add the Yakuza studio as another impressive team regarding output time and quality.

I do not know the size of the studio, but I don't think their budget is in the level of AAA productions and yet they manage to create great games every year. Obviously they reuse a lot of assets, but even then they manage to create a lot of new things for each title.

I really would love to see how they manage the Yakuza studio.
 
I would like to add the Yakuza studio as another impressive team regarding output time and quality.

I do not know the size of the studio, but I don't think their budget is in the level of AAA productions and yet they manage to create great games every year. Obviously they reuse a lot of assets, but even then they manage to create a lot of new things for each title.

I really would love to see how they manage the Yakuza studio.
Their secret is that arcade-era DNA.

Team Ninja is one that used to be a workhorse. DOA3/NG/DOA:XBV/DOA2U in one generation was just amazing - they milked every goddamn inch out of that fantastic engine they made.
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
So you are mad that Nier isn't a linear action game.

You said boring travel 14 times. Why not fast travel? The map isn't even big. You can run across the whole hub area in a few minutes.

Maybe you can expound on what makes travel over horizons enormous map so stimulating in comparison.

Fast traveling everywhere in a game makes you feel even more disconnected. It's an option, sure, but relying on it constantly isn't actually a good thing since what drives you to do it so often is how annoying it is to get around.

It's not even really the act of traveling itself since Automata moves fast, it's the actual design of the ruined city being annoying. Everything important is on edges of the map so you have to retread the same area c o n s t a n t l y if you don't just warp around everywhere. And if you do that then...I mean, sure, it might as well have been linear. The open aspect doesn't really add anything at all, I was never nearly as bothered in the first Nier as I recall it being more centralized. Doesn't help that there are awkward invisible walls all over the place.
 

tuxfool

Banned
I was never nearly as bothered in the first Nier as I recall it being more centralized. Doesn't help that there are awkward invisible walls all over the place.

Your recollection is faulty then. The world design of Nier was structured very similarly, albeit with more loading screens in between each discrete map you had to traverse.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
This game scope and development cycle is the antidote to all of Square Enix's problems. They need to pay attention to how this game was made and do it like this more often.

Nier Automata is 10x the game FFXV is, imo. And let's compare how long each game took...
 
If it wasn't for the combat, I prolly would have quit after 6 hours in.

The playable characters look great and are very nicely animated. Everything else looks like a last gen game lol.

I don't even like the combat all that much. It's good by Yoko Taro's standards (which means literally nothing), but it's extremely simplistic compared to almost every other Platinum game, enemy variety has been lackluster so far....

I'm genuinely struggling to find anything praiseworthy in Nier, aside from the great soundtrack and character design.
The sidequests and open world are terrible too.
 
I don't even like the combat all that much. It's good by Yoko Taro's standards (which means literally nothing), but it's extremely simplistic compared to almost every other Platinum game, enemy variety has been lackluster so far....
pTApMDZ.gif
 

jacobeid

Banned
I don't even like the combat all that much. It's good by Yoko Taro's standards (which means literally nothing), but it's extremely simplistic compared to almost every other Platinum game, enemy variety has been lackluster so far....

I'm genuinely struggling to find anything praiseworthy in Nier, aside from the great soundtrack and character design.
The sidequests and open world are terrible too.

This isn't even remotely true. Just because the loading menus don't tell you combos like Bayonetta doesn't mean the depth isn't there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSmdnOHq3Ro
 

Vanadium

Member
I don't know. I think conceptually it's ambitious, but there's definitely a lot of, let's say, recycling in the game. I'm a fan, but there's plenty of bland open areas and mechanically, it's one of the more simplistic Platinum releases you'll ever play. NieR is often more an experience than a game and that's not a bad thing. But I can totally believe this was done in two years.
 

remz

Member
The combos in Nier A are pretty dope but i feel the game does a really poor job of teaching you how to play, I didn't find the launcher until I was over halfway through route B for example.

I also think it could have used one or two more enemy types during route a and b. It's kinda missing a grace and glory type enemy...
 
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