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*NO BOOK SPOILERS* Game of Thrones - Season 2 - Sundays on HBO (read rules in OP)

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J

JGS

Banned
Cyan said:
But she didn't verify Ned's treachery. I mean, his "treachery" was right out in the open. There was nothing to tell.
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I didn't mean it that way. I meant that she sided with Joffrey and Cercei in their view in order to gain mercy for her father although she did add that Ned was duped into the conspiracy.

I liked the way she handled all of that actually although I knew Ned was a goner by that time
 
K

Klocker

Member
suzu said:
The recent responses were to correct someone who had mixed up something from the book and show. It was also about season one.

Of course, it would have been better if readers did not join in speculation or specifics about characters at all in the first place. Leave that for the other thread.
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why would anyone who has read the books want to even post in this thrread with all us cluelss heathens when there is a completly other thread with reading spoilers discussing the tv episodes right over THERE>>>>>
 
Z

Zeliard

Member
JGS said:
There is no reason for her to be as gracious as she is to everyone right now excpet that's in her nature to do once the spoiled teenager luxuries are gone.
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Well I think she's also gotten a lot smarter in a short time. She fairly quickly began to realize the dire situation she found herself in, and she's started to understand how to play the game far more effectively than Ned ever did.

Ned was horrible at politics, always attempting to do the right thing, but not knowing how to navigate the political channels in order to get things done. He just ultimately put himself in a terrible situation, and it ended with him losing his head.

There's clearly nothing Sansa would rather do at this point than shove a sword up both Joffrey and Cersei's asses, but she knows even voicing any derogatory opinion would be unwise, so she plays the political game of doting wife. And she's started to be a lot more slick and subtle about getting her way and still making it seem like Joffrey's decision, like how she saved that one guy's life who Joffrey attempted to execute via drink. So far she's been essentially untouchable because she's a pawn in the battle between prospective kings; the Lannisters already fucked up badly by killing Ned and letting Arya disappear, so Sansa is their only trump card. Sansa will probably be able to use that to her advantage as time goes on.

Cyan said:
I wish people wouldn't say stuff like this. :/ I know you're being as vague as possible, but I think I can guess what you're talking about.
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Eh? I haven't read the books and don't know anything that's in them. You and I are in the same position.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
JGS said:
I didn't mean it that way. I meant that she sided with Joffrey and Cercei in their view in order to gain mercy for her father although she did add that Ned was duped into the conspiracy.

I liked the way she handled all of that actually although I knew Ned was a goner by that time
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Ohhhh, gotcha. Yeah, I liked that as well.

Zeliard said:
Eh? I haven't read the books and don't know anything that's in them. You and I are in the same position.
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Oh, right on. It sounded like you were calling someone out for a spoiler. Never mind then!
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
Zeliard said:
Ned was horrible at politics, always attempting to do the right thing, but not knowing how to navigate the political channels in order to get things done. He just ultimately put himself in a terrible situation, and it ended with him losing his head.
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Yeah, he was quite bad at it... On the other hand, imagine if Robert came back from the hunt unharmed. With Ned's skills he would eventually get himself killed anyways since it's not just Cersei and Jaime who are ruthless and pursue their own agendas, so Ned would just keep on stepping on toes until he found a toe he'd break his legs on, but if Robert returned safely from the hunt Cersei would be oh, so screwed...

And what makes it even more cringeworthy is that if it wasn't for the boar and some bad luck, he *would* probably come back just alright.
 
V

Violet_0

Banned
Vodh said:
And what makes it even more cringeworthy is that if it wasn't for the boar and some bad luck, he *would* probably come back just alright.
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I think it was implied that the Lannister boy helped him to his death by steadily pouring more wine or possibly (I made this up) even poisoning him
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
Hasardeur said:
I think it was implied that the Lannister boy helped him to his death by steadily pouring more wine or possibly (I made this one up) even poisoning him
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Yeah, but if Robert got that boar before it got him I imagine he would just shake it off with a really bad hangover. The few days it would have bought him (if Lancel didn't actually poison him he or someone else would have sooner or later) would have made all the difference.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Vodh said:
Yeah, but if Robert got that boar before it got him I imagine he would just shake it off with a really bad hangover. The few days it would have bought him (if Lancel didn't actually poison him he or someone else would have sooner or later) would have made all the difference.
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I thought it was heavily implied that it was intentional. Certainly Tyrion seemed to think so in the last episode.

I mean, boar are the most dangerous game (oops, wait...) that a hunting party would ever go after. Getting extremely drunk and then hunting boar is predictably high risk.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Cyan said:
boar are the most dangerous game
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20090416.gif
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
Cyan said:
I thought it was heavily implied that it was intentional. Certainly Tyrion seemed to think so in the last episode.

I mean, boar are the most dangerous game (oops, wait...) that a hunting party would ever go after. Getting extremely drunk and then hunting boar is predictably high risk.
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I'm not saying it was unintentional, I'm saying that of all the assassinations so far, this one was the most likely to go wrong. Robert had beter chances than Bran imho.
 
L

Last Hearth

Member
walbertsmith said:
Hmm... I think you don't quite understand yet. You're trying to interpret the riddle too literally.



Could you expound what makes it flawed? Of course the sellsword holds the power... by themselves, the three individual men have no hold over the other two. What is the rich man to do.. bury the other two in gold? Is the religious man going to pray the other two to death? Can the king poke the other two with his crown?

The point is, each individual man has his own notions of what makes him great... but it's up to the sellsword to decide who is great.



The problem here is that you're trying to quantify the different attributes against each other... in other words, "do dragons beat magic? Or does a person's birthright beat sheer numbers?" It's impossible to compare those forces to one another at this point in time, because they all have legitimacy.

As for:



What is a king without respect? Or what is a dragon without food? What is a birthright without proof? Or what is an army without numbers?

The "sellsword" in this case is: respect... food... proof... numbers. Each faction needs something to attain legitimacy in this war. Each faction needs that edge to overcome their rivals. This is what I meant in my original post where I stated the "sellsword" is figurative, not literal.



Varys' point of view does not matter, because the riddle is applicable regardless of the situation. Power resides in those who people perceive have power... it doesn't matter if you have dragons or countless men or magic... if no one believes in you, you are nothing.
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You still don't get it, the power is only in the sellswords hand because he has a sword, he can determine life and death, his power is absolute. The other 3 can only hope to persuade/deceive him into giving his power to them. But this does not work if the other 3 also have power of life and death on their own without him. If the King has dragons he does not need popular support he can rule by destruction and fear. He doesn't need the support of the people if he has them cowed through fear.

Varys' riddle presumes that only the sellsword has power, and that is true in a world without magic, it is decidedly not true in a world with magic.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Last Hearth said:
You still don't get it, the power is only in the sellswords hand because he has a sword, he can determine life and death, his power is absolute. The other 3 can only hope to persuade/deceive him into giving his power to them. But this does not work if the other 3 also have power of life and death on their own without him. If the King has dragons he does not need popular support he can rule by destruction and fear. He doesn't need the support of the people if he has them cowed through fear.

Varys' riddle presumes that only the sellsword has power, and that is true in a world without magic, it is decidedly not true in a world with magic.
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I think you need to look at it more metaphorically, and not so literally.
 
D

Duki

Banned
Last Hearth said:
You still don't get it, the power is only in the sellswords hand because he has a sword, he can determine life and death, his power is absolute. The other 3 can only hope to persuade/deceive him into giving his power to them. But this does not work if the other 3 also have power of life and death on their own without him. If the King has dragons he does not need popular support he can rule by destruction and fear. He doesn't need the support of the people if he has them cowed through fear.

Varys' riddle presumes that only the sellsword has power, and that is true in a world without magic, it is decidedly not true in a world with magic.
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you dont get it because youre totally overrating how powerful the magic is in the show so far lol

from all we know, the dragons are tiny little fuckers who are near starving and the shadow thing we havent even seen what it does. if you could shit them out all day erry day and they were like super soldiers or something, there wouldnt even be a war anymore, because stannis would have done it a billion times over.

you still need armies, and you still need people. dragons are still just animals, they obv went extinct once and they could be made extinct again. if mellisandre was so powerful she'd have won the war for stannis already, instead of the constant conversation about how weak his position of power is.

add to this, youre not meant to take it literally. whole riddle is a metaphor. everything in the show so far has been completely grounded in realism and politicking, all the magic is pretty far away. if it was a win button for anyone youd have seen it by now. literally being willfully stupid and stubborn for no damn reason.
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
Last Hearth said:
You still don't get it, the power is only in the sellswords hand because he has a sword, he can determine life and death, his power is absolute. The other 3 can only hope to persuade/deceive him into giving his power to them. But this does not work if the other 3 also have power of life and death on their own without him. If the King has dragons he does not need popular support he can rule by destruction and fear. He doesn't need the support of the people if he has them cowed through fear.

Varys' riddle presumes that only the sellsword has power, and that is true in a world without magic, it is decidedly not true in a world with magic.
Click to expand...

Ruling through destruction and fear is just another way of saying 'making the people think he's the one with the power'. Just like abusing the shadow babies for whatever purpose they're meant to fulfill.

Right now the one getting ahead seems to be Renly, I think he has the largest following. As the things stand now, if he allied himself with Robb they could easily win the war. But if others manage their resources wisely, they can still shift people's perceptions.

Varys' riddle is actually very accurate and if anything, it's just a bit simple - there's absolutely nothing wrong with the fundamentals. Saying 'but the wealthy man has a dagger (magic) and can kill the priest!' is just adding another aspect, nothing changes in the riddle except for what the sellsword (the realm, or the realm's people) has to take into account when making his decision.

This riddle would not be wrong even if there was some kind of a 'weapon' more powerful than everyone's support - it would only mean the 'sellsword' sees the person with the 'weapon' as the one with power. As soon as someone else comes up with compelling evidenceo of how they can neutralize the 'weapon', good luck staying in charge.
 
M

Micerider

Member
I wonder, besides the Lannister armies, what are the "troops" that are available to Joeffrey?

I suspect the balance will be completely reviewed if The Greyjoy's put their plan to backstab the Starks in march (which seems to be the case, as Yara has apparently already a few ships fretted for conquest in Ep 3).

Renly is also commonly accepted as "un-experienced" as far as War is concerned. He might not fear his ennemies due to the support he has, but he is certainly under-estimating what could happen to him if one of the other "Kings" bet for a martial and tactical prowess (and then, shadow baby, whatever it does). He should have forged an alliance with Robb earlier.
 
S

scy

Member
Just to add to the dogpile there, the riddle is getting at that "the one that people support is up to the people." The fact he uses a sellsword deciding which to kill is irrelevant. There is no actual power over life and death involved in the riddle's meaning. People support what people support, not because one is objectively more "right" than the others.

Klocker said:
why would anyone who has read the books want to even post in this thrread with all us cluelss heathens when there is a completly other thread with reading spoilers discussing the tv episodes right over THERE>>>>>
Click to expand...

Well, I like the general atmosphere here better and I'd rather take this season as this season and not as an adaptation of the book. I generally try to make it clear I'm a reader, though, and I just stay away from real talk on the plot happenings; I don't want to ruin anything for anyone.
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
Micerider said:
I wonder, besides the Lannister armies, what are the "troops" that are available to Joffrey?

I suspect the balance will be completely reviewed if The Greyjoy's put their plan to backstab the Starks in march (which seems to be the case, as Yara has apparently already a few ships fretted for conquest in Ep 3).

Renly is also commonly accepted as "un-experienced" as far as War is concerned. He might not fear his ennemies due to the support he has, but he is certainly under-estimating what could happen to him if one of the other "Kings" bet for a martial and tactical prowess (and then, shadow baby, whatever it does). He should have forged an alliance with Robb earlier.
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The King's Landing city guards, the "Gold Cloaks," are available to the king as well as the Kingsguard.
 
B

BigJonsson

Member
Re-watching season 1..........things are starting to make sense


The Brotherhood was just mentioned......in episode 3......still don't know what it is haha
 
R

Raist

Banned
The Lamonster said:
The King's Landing city guards, the "Gold Cloaks," are available to the king as well as the Kingsguard.
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The Kingsguard is like, 7 knights. Not very helpful :p Even the gold cloaks is just a couple thousands.

Speaking of the kingsguard, is it just me or in E04 the Hound wasn't wearing his armor anymore?
 
C

charsace

Member
Sansa is naive, but she's also a stuck up little asshole. She treats her sister like shit and refers to Jon as bastard unlike the other Stark children. Sansa is not as honorable as the other Stark children. I always believed that her wolf dying was a sign that she isn't like her siblings.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
I really hate Sansa, she is the very definition of whiny spoiled brat. She's the starks version of Joffrey. Her only saving grace is she isn't a psychopath like Joffrey...yet. Oh and she treats Jon like shit, fuck her.

Poor little Arya =(
 
J

JGS

Banned
I still don't understand how people can get that about Sansa in her current form, but at this point it's a lost cause.

It seems that everyone is upset about what she did 10 episodes back. Just say you personally could never forgive her for the butcher boy and let the story advance.
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
Raist said:
The Kingsguard is like, 7 knights. Not very helpful :p Even the gold cloaks is just a couple thousands.

Speaking of the kingsguard, is it just me or in E04 the Hound wasn't wearing his armor anymore?
Click to expand...

Still, they are significant additions to his forces aside from the Lannister men.
 
K

Kinyou

Member
Raist said:
The Kingsguard is like, 7 knights. Not very helpful :p Even the gold cloaks is just a couple thousands.

Speaking of the kingsguard, is it just me or in E04 the Hound wasn't wearing his armor anymore?
Click to expand...
What about barons like the Mountain?

(Is he a baron? I mean it seems like he commands his own soldiers)
 
S

SerArthurDayne

Member
Kinyou said:
What about barons like the Mountain?

(Is he a baron? I mean it seems like he commands his own soldiers)
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This is a feudal system, so Lannister Troops/Stark Troops whatever means that most of them are sworn vassals. So like Gregor is sworn to the Lannisters, The Greatjon to the Starks. The actual strength of each house is probably greater than any of their individual lords, but a pretty small total number until you call the banners and put everybody together into the same army.

The Hound seems to go back and forth on his armor, but always has his cloak as far as I can tell.
 
E

ElectricBlue187

Member
Angelus Errare said:
I really hate Sansa, she is the very definition of whiny spoiled brat. She's the starks version of Joffrey. Her only saving grace is she isn't a psychopath like Joffrey...yet. Oh and she treats Jon like shit, fuck her.

Poor little Arya =(
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I don't remember her treating Jon like shit. I dont really remember them interacting at all. Sansa is just trying to stay alive basically, shes never had any power or reason to screw anybody
 
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