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[Zornica]

According to PEGI, Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 3D and Resident Evil The Mercenaries 3D
In the UK they were rated 15 by the bbfc. IIRC someone did say on the Nintendo videos, there was a video that was for over 18 and couldn't be viewed till after 11pm as well.

I just went to the 3ds eshop, both mgs3d and re:re are usk 16 and there is no ristriction on them. I don't think there is anything 18+ on the 3ds eshop yet. at least I couldn't find anything.
btw: something sounds odd about the time... 11pm till 3am doesn't sound right. anyone who can check tonight if this is true? I've been given false information by the support once before. Would be interessting if someone could check at lets say 10:30pm and sometime between 3 and 6. because usually the content is blocked between 10 and 6 o'clock as it has been mentioned in this thread.

edit: Another thing I was thinking about:
the firmware was obviously done by ncl in japan... so what if they didn't consider this problem when they made the software? Would be a huge overlook on their end but could also mean that this can/will be fixed.

 

[fabricated backlash]

fixed

There was once a German website dedicated to documention of censorship of movies and videogames, which was hosted from within Germany. It was called schnittberichte.de. This site got shut down because of German youth protection laws in 2002. A replacement site was created called schnittberichte.com and it's hosted outside of Germany now, so that German laws don't apply anymore.

I guess the actual problem is that Nintendo is hosting from within Germany.

The actual problem is them completely over reacting to German regulations. And being fucking lazy on top of that.

 

[Scum]

So, 18 rated games can be on the eShop at any given time but can only be previewed/bought at a certain time, right?

 

[Gowans]

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Thought this was a joke.

 

[wsippel]

So, 18 rated games can be on the eShop at any given time but can only be previewed/bought at a certain time, right?

Yes. Though things will probably get messy once the first Wii U game is on the Index or banned in Germany. No idea what NoE is going to do then. In theory, they can't even host Miiverse communities for those games.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Yes. Though things will probably get messy once the first Wii U game is on the Index or banned in Germany. No idea what NoE is going to do then. In theory, they can't even host Miiverse communities for those games.

Germany truly is afraid of their own citizens developing their own oppinion.

 

[Endgegner]

Well, what wsippel says sound crazy but plausibel but:

- Why does UbiSoft have a similar system even though they are not based in Germany
- Why is the timeframe from 23-3 when the actual regulation in german tv for 18+ content affects the time from 23 - 6?
- Why, if it's due to german law is the rating process based on the pegi system which as far as I know has no relevance for the german market. Seeing how AC3 is rated 16+.


I guess the answer to all three questions could be that the companies are playing it safe, eg. UbiSoft complies with german law even though they don't have to. Or maybe they actually have a german subsidary that does their german online business for whatever reason.
Other two could be that Nintendo just decided not to discern between 16+ and 18+ and limited the time even more, although this really makes no sense.


Last but not least, wouldn't transferring the online business of NOE be relatively easy. I mean they already have offices (and probably companies) all over europe, can't be difficult to move the legal part of the business there. They probably could even keep working from germany.

 

[Scum]

Yes. Though things will probably get messy once the first Wii U game is on the Index or banned in Germany. No idea what NoE is going to do then. In theory, they can't even host Miiverse communities for those games.

So NoE is just abiding by the law, but in old typical NoE fashion. Meh. There goes my Bayonetta community. :-(

Edit: In Germany, anyway.

 

[mrklaw]

A couple of things should be noted. What’s happening over at Nintendo of Europe (so in Germany) is referred to as self-regulation in combination with something called the Jugendmedienschutz-Staatsvertrag (JMStV).

Germany does not forbid Nintendo to sell 18 rated games during the day.
There are absolutely no laws that would force Nintendo to not sell games during the day, for example. However, since there is the JMStV, there are things Nintendo has to do (by law). §5 of the JMStV basically says that if you’re selling or advertising things that are not meant for minors (usually this means rating 16+ or 18+), you have to make sure that they “usually don’t see them”. Not this is not meant as in “Children must not see that these games are being sold” but - since this law was not built around the internet - is more about questionable advertisements on TV, for example.

How can they do that? There was this 10pm to 3am time frame thrown around. However, that time frame (to show restricted content) between 10pm and 3am doesn’t exist in any kind of recommendation or law, or the JMStV. Two different time frames are mentioned in the JMStV: 10pm to 6am & 11pm to 6am.

There’s a second option for Nintendo, though. They could restrict the access to that content through “technical or other means” that would make access to that content for children/people under 18 “impossible” or “substantially harder”.

So it looks like Nintendo is using a bit of this and a bit of that to make sure they’re on the safe side. What shouldn’t be ignored is that Nintendo has the option to get data from their customers who want to prove that they’re 18 or older. Sony does this by making their PSN cards 18+ rated (I’ve been asked for identification in the past) and Microsoft just doesn’t give a crap at all. The tabaco industry does it via something called the Schufa. They’re usually being asked for your details when you want to get a cell phone contract (to give information about your credit rating) but they can also be contacted to simply show if you’re 18 or not. Nintendo, in Germany, has ways to avoid this hogwash but they don’t for some weird reason. Considering that an account would have to only be approved a single time, I guess that it would be good for them in the long run, though.

But the parental controls prevent you from going into an 18-rated community on miiverse, which is all they'd need to do in the eshop.

I haven't tried it yet, but I bet parental controls stop you seeing content on the eshop even between 11pm-3am. So the access for minors is already restricted. So why also restrict it for adults?

 

[fabricated backlash]

But the parental controls prevent you from going into an 18-rated community on miiverse, which is all they'd need to do in the eshop.

I haven't tried it yet, but I bet parental controls stop you seeing content on the eshop even between 11pm-3am. So the access for minors is already restricted. So why also restrict it for adults?

Exactly this. NIntendo allready complies with German laws by providing comprehensive parental controls. Hide or reasonably obstruct access to content not deemed suitable for kids.

There is zero need for them to go this far with this crap.

 

[PaulLFC]

Found this in the comments of an article about this on The Verge, is it true?

I hate to defend German regulatory bodies, but Nintendo could just implement an age verification system. With my German TV subscription I could watch x-rated movies after entering a pin code (all day). They just have to check users’ IDs once and assign a pin code. Since this is quite usual over here it’s neither too inconvenient nor expensive…

Is Nintendo playing it safe when they could have implemented a less strict system and still complied with the law? Or is that comment missing something that forces Nintendo to make the system operate the way they have?

 

[wsippel]

But the parental controls prevent you from going into an 18-rated community on miiverse, which is all they'd need to do in the eshop.

I haven't tried it yet, but I bet parental controls stop you seeing content on the eshop even between 11pm-3am. So the access for minors is already restricted. So why also restrict it for adults?

Because German laws are ass backwards when it comes to youth protection. Client side parental controls are not considered safe enough (because parents are dumb). A new law that would have changed that fell through in December 2010 because it was confusing as fuck and would have broken about as much as it would have fixed.

Found this in the comments of an article about this on The Verge, is it true?

Is Nintendo playing it safe when they could have implemented a less strict system and still complied with the law? Or is that comment missing something that forces Nintendo to make the system operate the way they have?

It's true, but they'd probably need to verify the age of every single customer in all of Europe to be safe, at least in theory.

I think the best thing Nintendo could do would be to issue NFC enabled smartcards and sell those at stores, rated 18+. You get home, tie the card to your account, and get a nice physical authorization token for the Nintendo Network. To buy 18+ stuff, just log on with your card. Nintendo would even make a few bucks from every card sold.

 

[derExperte]

At least on PSN Germany, there are no game demos or videos or anything of such games at all. After the PSN outage Sony gave out free games. And in case of the PSN Germany Infamous + Dead Nation were removed because of those laws.

There are, for the RE6 demo you neeeded PS+ because you have to be 18+ to sign up. Some laws are a bit stupid here but companies can get around most of them if they want.

 

[Scum]

There are, for the RE6 demo you neeeded PS+ because you have to be 18+ to sign up. Some laws are a bit stupid here but companies can get around most of them if they want.

Time to upgrade to eShop+ / eShop Direct.

 

[snap0212]

Because German laws are ass backwards when it comes to youth protection. Client side parental controls are not considered safe enough (because parents are dumb). A new law that would have changed that fell through in December 2010 because it was confusing as fuck and would have broken about as much as it would have fixed.

No, it’s pretty much the only country that gets that parents are idiots and/or don’t care. You have to prove that you’re 16 when buying beer, you have to prove that you’re 18 when buying cigarettes. You have to prove that you're of a certain age when going to see a movie. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with assuming that you’re not of a certain age if you cannot prove it. Every country I’ve ever been to handles it like this.

The problem is that there’s no acceptable and simple solution for adults available. At the gas station, I can just show my ID. Same for every other store. It’s different online and there hasn’t been a real improvement for reliable age verification so we’re stuck with the crappy “better safe than sorry” solution. The law itself isn't the problem, the lack of a way to prove that you're an adult is.

 

[jimi_dini]

Found this in the comments of an article about this on The Verge, is it true?

They would have to check everyone's ID. And I mean

from Europe that is. Then it would work somewhat, but it would be insane to do so.

And even that is not perfectly safe. It would be an age check in advance. And in theory the poor children could find out the PIN and then they wouldn't be protected (tm) anymore. For physical goods it's "easier", because the postman/seller can check the ID when delivering/selling. For digital goods it's not possible to really check the age.

 

[King_Moc]

No, it’s pretty much the only country that gets that parents are idiots and/or don’t care. You have to prove that you’re 16 when buying beer, you have to prove that you’re 18 when buying cigarettes. You have to prove that you're of a certain age when going to see a movie. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with assuming that you’re not of a certain age if you cannot prove it. Every country I’ve ever been to handles it like this.

The problem is that there’s no acceptable and simple solution for adults available. At the gas station, I can just show my ID. Same for every other store. It’s different online and there hasn’t been a real improvement for reliable age verification so we’re stuck with the crappy “better safe than sorry” solution. The law itself isn't the problem, the lack of a way to prove that you're an adult is.

They have my credit card details saved. I think you need to be 18 to get one. In the UK at least.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Do you know what makes this all the more ridiculous?

Most adults over the age of 18 WORK.

while gaming at silly o clock at night might be not unusual on GAF, it's a bit out there for the mainstream Wii-u owner.

You know who has no problem being up at these times of night? Teenagers.


idiots.

 

[jimi_dini]

They have my credit card details saved. I think you need to be 18 to get one. In the UK at least.

But children could just use the creditcard of their parents.

 

[wsippel]

They have my credit card details saved. I think you need to be 18 to get one. In the UK at least.

A credit card isn't considered a valid ID. And you don't need to be 18 to get a credit card in Germany either.

 

[frankie_baby]

They have my credit card details saved. I think you need to be 18 to get one. In the UK at least.

True but Nintendo's systems don't currently differentiate between credit cards and debit cards and you don't need to be 18 to get one of those

 

[Zornica]

I think the best thing Nintendo could do would be to issue NFC enabled smartcards and sell those at stores, rated 18+. You get home, tie the card to your account, and get a nice physical authorization token for the Nintendo Network. To buy 18+ stuff, just log on with your card. Nintendo would even make a few bucks from every card sold.

That's actually a pretty good solution. I wonder if they had something like that in mind when the implemented the NFC reader into the pad. Could be even simpler:
just create a single type of eShop prepaid card with a chip in it which is rated 18 so minors can't buy it. It would mean that everyone who wants to buy 18+ stuff on the store has to own one, but at least you can use it to buy something instead of just unlocking the shop

 

[Scum]

I think the best thing Nintendo could do would be to issue NFC enabled smartcards and sell those at stores, rated 18+. You get home, tie the card to your account, and get a nice physical authorization token for the Nintendo Network. To buy 18+ stuff, just log on with your card. Nintendo would even make a few bucks from every card sold.

You reading this NoE? Get to it!

 

[Panajev2001a]

you don't need to be 18 to get a credit card in Germany either.

This is a problem, you should be able to make a secondary card for your underage child but the main card should NOT be given to a minor. I cannot understand the thought process behind it.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Nintendo

 

[fabricated backlash]

That's actually a pretty good solution. I wonder if they had something like that in mind when the implemented the NFC reader into the pad. Could be even simpler:
just create a single type of eShop prepaid card with a chip in it which is rated 18 so minors can't buy it. It would mean that everyone who wants to buy 18+ stuff on the store has to own one, but at least you can use it to buy something instead of just unlocking the shop

The fact that this even has to be a solution boggles the mind.

Good suggestion though. Would put responsability on retailers and I'd prefer NFC prepaid cards anyway.

 

[wsippel]

This is a problem, you should be able to make a secondary card for your underage child but the main card should NOT be given to a minor. I cannot understand the thought process behind it.

I believe pretty much all "credit cards" issued in Germany are actually just debit cards.

 

[Eric C]

Just a heads-up, the ubishop.com store does the same for PC-Downloads (at least in germany). Tried to get ACIII (got a voucher with my new video card) and got the "you can only buy this item between 22:00-06:00" message. It's ridiculous, ACIII isn't even a 18-title - it got an 16 rating. Also funny, you need to be 18+ to create a shop-account, makes the restriction even more hilarious.

Why is Ubisoft doing that? Isn't Ubisoft based in France?

They're not based in Germany like NoE is, so why would they have to comply with German laws? I hope Ubisoft is only doing that for people in Germany, not ALL of Europe.

Anyways I think ALL European online/digital stores should get out of Germany ASAP, so the rest of Europe doesn't have to suffer because of German laws.

As much as I get frustrated sometimes by NoA, I'm glad NoA isn't doing anything like this.

 

[madmackem]

This is the silliest shit ive ever heard. I dont game those times so i wont be buying any 18 rated games off eshop.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I believe pretty much all "credit cards" issued in Germany are actually just debit cards.

Really? It does seem strange actually... still, very much possible...

 

[Autofokus]

Why is Ubisoft doing that? Isn't Ubisoft based in France?

They're not based in Germany like NoE is, so why would they have to comply with German laws? I hope Ubisoft is only doing that for people in Germany, not ALL of Europe.

Anyways I think ALL European online/digital stores should get out of Germany ASAP, so the rest of Europe doesn't have to suffer because of German laws.

As much as I get frustrated sometimes by NoA, I'm glad NoA isn't doing anything like this.

I don't know, all I know is that Digital Rivers handles the Ubi Download Store. Btw, my ACIII download came from Ireland, so that stuff isn't even hosted in Germany.

 

[jimi_dini]

Why is Ubisoft doing that? Isn't Ubisoft based in France?

It seems France has something similar:

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3302397&cid=42223781

In France, there are rules preventing 18+ games from being sown on TV before 22:30. Even channels broadcasting on cable, satellite and dsl networks must respect those rules. That poses a problem to channels like Nolife TV [nolife-tv.com], specialized in video games, because a lot of games get a PEGI 18 rating - if the player is able to kill a human-looking enemy, and this is done in a somewhat realist context, it's PEGI 18. As a result, they must cram discussion of a lot of games in a small time slot.

The rule was originally designed for movies, by the way, but the French movie rating is much more relaxed than the games rating. For example, the last James Bond movie did not get any restriction at all, it would be PEGI 18 if it were a game. But the movie rating boards in Europe use different standards.

Anyways I think ALL European online/digital stores should get out of Germany ASAP, so the rest of Europe doesn't have to suffer because of German laws.

And France it seems. Yes, I agree.

btw. we are on Slashdot http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/12/07/231203/nintendo-puts-a-bedtime-on-wii-u-content-in-europe

At least Nintendo doesn't add the ugly USK stickers for the rest of Europe.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

It's time for facts to overrule everything else. So would people post actual facts only please and not exaggerations of the truth. This way we can narrow down who's made the error because that is exactly what is it. We should not put up with such crap whomever decided in their wisdom this was a good idea. This is why we have a ratings system and parental controls.

1. Is this only for Germany or is this all across Europe?

2. Does this pertain to just Ubisoft titles or all games and media?

 

[mrklaw]

It's time for facts to overrule everything else. So would people post actual facts only please and not exaggerations of the truth. This way we can narrow down who's made the error because that is exactly what is it. We should not put up with such crap whomever decided in their wisdom this was a good idea. This is why we have a ratings system and parental controls.

1. Is this only for Germany or is this all across Europe?

2. Does this pertain to just Ubisoft titles or all games and media?

There are plenty of facts in this thread, page 1 has lots.

Is in more than just Germany - Italy and UK at least.

 

[Izick]

Nintendo is still so incompetent when it comes to these types of things.

 

[axisofweevils]

I think someone should post about this in the Zombi U and Ass Creed communities.
Bring the issue to their attention. It definitely is a terrible idea, and Nintendo deserve all the backlash they get.

Is it true that Norway doesn't suffer from this? If so, would changing the system settings to Norway be enough to fix this?

 

[Pyri]

Exactly this. NIntendo allready complies with German laws by providing comprehensive parental controls. Hide or reasonably obstruct access to content not deemed suitable for kids.

There is zero need for them to go this far with this crap.

No. There is a German institution called "Kommission fuer Jugendmedienschutz" (KJM) which dictates acceptable controls. Nothing any console manufacturer does in that regard is today enough for the KJM, but some German websites like GamersGlobal.de use KJM-approved controls.
The problem is that these controls are nearly excluding anyone who doesn't have a German passport or something they call "Personalausweis". At least very often there are no other possibilites to access content there. You only can and have to prove your age by providing information through such documents. Yet interpretations vary: Sony for example seems to think that they are allowed to sell age-restricted stuff on their German PSN store when somebody has paid for it. Hence they give away some demos only to PlayStation-Plus-subscribers.
The German adult industry is using paid services, and so forth. These services are supposing youth protection but are indeed in need of heavy fees on a monthly basis, blocking content that would otherwise be free.

Nintendo of Europe should really move away from Grossostheim, and out of Germany.
In that regard things can only get worse - Electronic Arts is already working together with the KJM or mainstream lawyers on several projects because the German video game industry is far from criticizing this situation around youth protection (Jugendschutz) in Germany. Most of their representatives are applauding those laws. Like the adult industry, they may also see a business opportunity there. These are dangerous conditions any liberal-minded European should be aware of while most Germans are accepting the conceptions of "Jugendschutz" by the state for historical reasons without questioning them one bit.
Nintendo's actions today could only be the start of something that is getting far worse next-gen. This could easily be the beginning of the end for free gaming in Europe. Anyone should be aware of the threat German youth protection is to European gaming. And if not today, then tomorrow -

 

[Panajev2001a]

No. There is a German institution called "Kommission fuer Jugendmedienschutz" (KJM) which dictates acceptable controls. Nothing any console manufacturer does in that regard is today enough for the KJM, but some German websites like GamersGlobal.de use KJM-approved controls.
The problem is that these controls are nearly excluding anyone who doesn't have a German passport or something they call "Personalausweis". At least very often there are no other possibilites to access content there. You only can and have to prove your age by providing information through such documents. Yet interpretations vary: Sony for example seems to think that they are allowed to sell age-restricted stuff on their German PSN store when somebody has paid for it. Hence they give away some demos only to PlayStation-Plus-subscribers.
The German adult industry is using paid services, and so forth. These services are supposing youth protection but are indeed in need of heavy fees on a monthly basis, blocking content that would otherwise be free.

Nintendo of Europe should really move away from Grossostheim, and out of Germany.
In that regard things can only get worse - Electronic Arts is already working together with the KJM or mainstream lawyers on several projects because the German video game industry is far from criticizing this situation around youth protection (Jugendschutz) in Germany. Most of their representatives are applauding those laws. Like the adult industry, they may also see a business opportunity there. These are dangerous conditions any liberal-minded European should be aware of while most Germans are accepting the conceptions of "Jugendschutz" by the state for historical reasons without questioning them one bit.
Nintendo's actions today could only be the start of something that is getting far worse next-gen. This could easily be the beginning of the end for free gaming in Europe. Anyone should be aware of the threat German youth protection is to European gaming. And if not today, then tomorrow -

Wow... just wow...

 

[Louis Cyphre]

There are plenty of facts in this thread, page 1 has lots.

Is in more than just Germany - Italy and UK at least.

Ok thanks but are more games other than published by Ubisoft affected?

 

[frankie_baby]

Ok thanks but are more games other than published by Ubisoft affected?

When it comes to purchasing currently no as the only 18 rated games for sale on the eshop are ac3 and zombi u

 

[DrM]

Hm, so EU parliament will probably soon vote for this stuff EU wide...

 

[dragonflys545]

Holy crap... That's mess up! Good luck fellow Europe Wii U owners.

 

[Haunted]

So why can I buy 18+ games from spielegrotte.de right now, a German online shop based in Meerbusch (Nordrhein-Westfalen)? All they have from me is a copy of my ID to check I'm over 18, I can order any game game I want whenever I want.

I wanted to post some additional examples, but that one's basically the only German online shop I use, all the others are international (because they're cheaper and just as fast). But still!

Seems like this is a problem - while caused by overzealous German youth protection laws - that Nintendo could circumvent if not fix easily, if only they really wanted to. All this tells me is that user experience seems to be pretty fucking low on their list of priorities, and that's not the image Nintendo needs to project right now to win core gamers back.


And as has been said numerous times now, this doesn't bode well for third party relations once they realise that their 18+ titles only get 4 hours a day of actual market/sales time on the e-shop in EU compared to no such restrictions on every other fucking system (Steam, 360, PSN).

 

[Haunted]

1. Is this only for Germany or is this all across Europe?

2. Does this pertain to just Ubisoft titles or all games and media?

All of EU, not Europe (someone said Norway was not affected).

All games 18+ are affected. At the moment, the only available 18+ games are from Ubisoft.


As a sidenote to that, Assassin's Creed is rated USK 16 (not 18) so it shouldn't even be affected by this shit in Germany in the first place.

 

[kliklik]

This doesn't just affect EU players. The EU is a huge region for game sales, and restrictions that will inarguably hinder online sales could possibly discourage 3rd party developers from making games for the Wii U.

 

[Panajev2001a]

This doesn't just affect EU players. The EU is a huge region for game sales, and restrictions that will inarguably hinder online sales could possibly discourage 3rd party developers from making games for the Wii U.

You have a point... it is not certainly an incentive for them.

 

[SolarPowered]

So why can I buy 18+ games from spielegrotte.de right now, a German online shop based in Meerbusch (Nordrhein-Westfalen)? All they have from me is a copy of my ID to check I'm over 18, I can order any game game I want whenever I want.

I wanted to post some additional examples, but that one's basically the only German online shop I use, all the others are international (because they're cheaper and just as fast). But still!

Seems like this is a problem - while caused by overzealous German youth protection laws - that Nintendo could circumvent if not fix easily, if only they really wanted to. All this tells me is that user experience seems to be pretty fucking low on their list of priorities, and that's not the image Nintendo needs to project right now to win core gamers back.


And as has been said numerous times now, this doesn't bode well for third party relations once they realise that their 18+ titles only get 4 hours a day of actual market/sales time on the e-shop in EU compared to no such restrictions on every other fucking system (Steam, 360, PSN).

Not that this really matters. That first week and the uncovered specs thus far pretty much ended any chance of Nintendo being a viable "core" alternative. This is gonna be the Gamecube with no F-Zero and 2-3 times the LTD sales. Maybe it'll have a decent smash game again. Sounds great to me if I can buy a deluxe for $250 in three years.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

When it comes to purchasing currently no as the only 18 rated games for sale on the eshop are ac3 and zombi u

All of EU, not Europe (someone said Norway was not affected).

All games 18+ are affected. At the moment, the only available 18+ games are from Ubisoft.


As a sidenote to that, Assassin's Creed is rated USK 16 (not 18) so it shouldn't even be affected by this shit in Germany in the first place.

Thanks again. It will be interesting to see what Nintendo and Ubisoft have to say about this.

 

[Phazon]

Too bad we can't post memes on Miiverse

 

[axisofweevils]

Just wondering - if I started a download at 2:59 AM, will it just stop after the time's up or will it allow me continue?