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So it's basically horrible people being salty.
It means his plan worked.
It means his plan worked.
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NYT: $70K minimum salary company copes with backlash
- Thread starter backflip10019
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Gotdatmoney
Member
Lol if I based my thought process on pop stars and day traders it would be ignoring how 99% of the market works. You expecr compensation vs ypur experience and your field. You dont compare yourseld to standards that are the extreme outliers.
People are acting like there should be no advantage to getting an education amd shouldering shit tons of responsibility. People are also ignoring the idea that you want to be compensated at a fair market value but you may also want othera to actually do well for themselves too. Its not a crazy concept. I dont want people to starve here. Its not as though someone with 20 years experience and a masters degree who holds shit tons more responsibility and consequences than there assistant should not want to be compensated more. Otherwise why would you put yourself in such difficult positions?
real_slime
Banned
That's cool, but it isn't a 'false dichotomy' because it's exactly what some people have been saying in this topic.
purvispisgah
Member
Yes, I am happy with what I make relative to the responsibilities of my job. However, if I made the same amount of many as the engineers that I manage, that would be an issue. If there are problems with work that any engineer touches, that responsibility falls on my shoulders. I am happy to take on that stress, but only because it pays more. If I could make my current salary for the output that the other engineers make, or my own work output when I started this job, I would sign up for that instantly.
Unfortunately, our company is small and seems to be in a more competitive market than the one described in the OP. Every penny counts. It's unreasonable to allocate salary that way, and I would be concerned about the upper management at my company if they decided to do so.
It would be interesting to know the work experience and position of people in this thread and see if there is any kind of correlation between that and their opinions.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I want to make a shitty Happy Madison movie now about a bunch of slackers vying for a highly paid janitor job in the Janitor Games
iunderstoodthatreference.gif
You *are* getting paid market value. The boss is just choosing to pay others more than their market value.
Serious question: Do you actually enjoy engineering or did you just 'go through the bullshit' to make money?
Regarding the cost, that's an argument for making education more affordable.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
This is bullshit people want to do things, people have dreams. "Derp i'ma give up my dream of being an Astronomer to clean toilets..."
freeofgreed
Member
You do know that if you quit that assistant would still be making the same as you? So why does it matter either way?
You sound like someone coming out of a fairyland. Salary/income is also a way, in our world, to recognize a person's value and contribution to the society. It's not just some number to keep you alive.
Gotdatmoney
Member
This only works in this small situation. I can live with this on a small scale but it falls apart if you ever try to expand it to a norm. I think the boss is cool for doing this but I am not ignorant of how some of his employees feel.
If everyone gets paid the same, regardless of the responsibilities they have/work they do, there's no incentive to do more work.
You don't see how someone answering a telephone for a living and someone who went through 4 years of school and numerous years of job experience making the same amount devalues the latter? Really?
Let's try it this way. If a new hire at this company makes the same amount of money as someone who has a 4 year degree and 10 years experience at the same company, what is the value of that 4 year degree and 10 years experience? Nothing. That's the exact definition of devaluing. This employer is basically telling people their hard work is of no value.
Because anyone can be a janitor, and I'm the one who worked my ass off to get where I am? I'm actually vital to keep the company running, and that guy sweeps floors?
I'm not opposed to people making a minimum living wage, but this whole idea that skills, education, and talent shouldn't mean anything is absurd. What's the point of even trying to achieve at that point when I can just drop out of high school and pick up trash for a living and make the same as some guy who busted his ass through college and then put in his time gaining experience in his given field?
Keep dreaming.
Exactly. What's the fucking point in busting your ass, racking up debt, and dealing with a high stress job when you can push around a broom all day, have zero stress, and leave work at work each night when you go home to the exact same salary?
Dollars to doughnuts the majority of the "greedy" "you shouldn't care" etc. people are low skilled, have very little work experience, or are still in school.
Having a dream and putting in the time and effort to achieve the dream are two different things. While plenty of people will dream of being an astronaut, way less people will put in the education and effort to be an astronaut if the astronaut is paid the same as the toilet cleaner.
Battersea Power Station
Member
But that (the bolded) is not how the market works. Your experience is not what's being compensated. Your experience is a tool for employers to determine whether you can competently fill a position, and that position is what has value to them. That value is determined by how many people you're competing with, not by how much schooling you had or how hard you worked.
There doesn't have to be, whatsoever. You're describing a "moral" obligation to be compensated for your effort and determination, but that's not how markets work. If you have time, listen to this story on coding boot camps: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2015/07/30/coding-boot-camp-career-change-tech-boom
A 3-month course, on average, gets participants jobs paying 44% higher than their previous ones, and many making $100,000 or more. Do you think they're getting rewarded for hard work and "responsibility?" No -- that would be a moral judgement. They're getting paid based on market forces. Companies need these positions and there is a shortage of employees to fill them.
Generally, at least for your upside, you are being compensated at a fair market value. Minimum wage decisions (public or private) that control the low side don't really affect that.
I think his point is you will not pay the same for a concert held by some random a amateur, comparing to a pop star. Come on gaf, why would you have to build your kindness toward one class on top of devaluing another?
Gotdatmoney
Member
I love engineering. I would take this job over being a janitor any day regardless of pay because I find it rewarding. "But" it still doesnt make me ignorant to the fact that you get a shit ton of responsibility and a shit ton of blame if stuff goes wrong and not everyone can do it or handle it. And knowing that, while it doesnt mean I feel I am "better" than anyone else it does mean I do expect that I need to be compensated vs my skills. That concept does not imply I want people to not be able to make it and considering how much an engineer makes vs how much a CEO makes people implying that are being stupid.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Raising wages is a fucking quick fix sham anyways.
If we just moved to a guaranteed minimum income for all then we could actually get to solving shit vs trying schemes like the owner in the OP.
There are to many holes in this current raise wages theory that will only get bigger in the future.
If we just moved to a guaranteed minimum income for all then we could actually get to solving shit vs trying schemes like the owner in the OP.
There are to many holes in this current raise wages theory that will only get bigger in the future.
I remember this argument from the previous thread but I assumed they had a plan for this.
Still, you'd think these employees would understand the "statement" part of this considering all the press this move has gotten and not put that much stock into "what's fair". At the very least they could have let this idea play out more than 3 months before deciding to leave.
If the statement conflicts with fairness, then the statement needs to be adjusted.
purvispisgah
Member
For the record, I am more interested in actually knowing than prematurely casting aspersions. People are capable of holding all kinds of different opinions regardless of their background.
DrFaustPhD
Member
The article cites he lost his largest clients because they perceived it as a political move - the new business won't be able to make him money for a year.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That's...something. Geez.
I think his employees are smarter than allowing their CEO to dick with their future careers to make an instant statement instead of ensuring that statement happens properly.
Junior Mint
Member
Well why would you want the stress, responsibilities and accountabilities of being in senior management when you could say demote yourself to analyst level and make the same amount of money.
It's like people have no idea that a PE assumes the responsibility if a project goes wrong, and not his/her CAD drafter.
There's levels to this shit.
Didn't expect that but as I think about it I guess that makes sense.
People in generally are overly concerned with what other people are getting that they don't "deserve," even if it has no direct bearing on them. The other people are stupid, lazy etc and need to be taught a lesson. We can't accept people getting lucky breaks because we aren't also getting them. Though as I mull this, the behavior extends to the left and rich people too.
In summation, we all jelly.
People in generally are overly concerned with what other people are getting that they don't "deserve," even if it has no direct bearing on them. The other people are stupid, lazy etc and need to be taught a lesson. We can't accept people getting lucky breaks because we aren't also getting them. Though as I mull this, the behavior extends to the left and rich people too.
In summation, we all jelly.
Corronchilejano
Member
You couldn't even read the OP... nevermind that, you couldn't read the bolded parts in the OP.
UltimaPooh
Member
Do something good and the world around you destroys you for it.
The rich have already won. We, as a society, have allowed these oligarch motherfuckers to convince us that it is okay for others not to make livable wages and believe it is okay to effectively want others to live in abject poverty. Class warfare in full effect. Unbelievable. People are so goddamn selfish and brain dead stupid. I just don't understand.
G fucking G
G fucking G
I agree on a macro scale because of inflation.
I just hate seeing people denigrated because they don't do work that society sees as "valuable." Be happy for those who are fortunate enough to get paid enough to not worry about money.
What about not getting fired, or the satisfaction of doing a good job, or not letting your fellow coworkers down?
Try again. Law degree, good-paying job, several years of experience.Rafterman said:
Maybe if people didn't have to scrounge, borrow, and torture themselves to achieve a modicum of financial security in our society we'd do jobs that are better suited to our skills and interests rather than aiming for a certain pay grade to rise above the peons.
Melon Husk
Member
Since when did university education become an investment?
Answer
to the real question layered behind it: It shouldn't have become.
People want returns for their $100k and 4 years investment. As long as the ugly truth remains wage gap decreases will be met with resistance from the indebted middle class.
People want returns for their $100k and 4 years investment. As long as the ugly truth remains wage gap decreases will be met with resistance from the indebted middle class.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
There is no however, you're just butt hurt that some one else life is equivalent in value to yours because of your arbitrary belief your life is worth more than the person who didn't go to college.
Battersea Power Station
Member
In fact, I'm pointing out that there is no inherent value in anyone. I'd pay to see some random amateur, if I got the same amount of enjoyment from seeing him as from seeing a top Billboard artist, or whomever.
Market forces control how much we pay for products and how much companies pay for assets, like employees. These things are generally not decided by judgements in morality.
One can argue that morality comes into play when we decide how little we pay employees, since politicians talk about a "fair wage" or doing "what's right," but even those are business decisions -- they want to avoid foreclosures, bankruptcies, a recession, and all the other fallout of dangerous income inequality.
I don't seem to see where in the NYT article that it says he lost his "largest" clients because of a perceived political move. The article states: "a few customers, dismayed by what they viewed as a political statement, withdrew their business."
The CEO knew the timeline for new clients earning him money and knew expansion would be necessary and knew expansion would require fresh hires and knew these fresh hires would earn the salary he promised in his NYT article and knew said article is the reason he would get an influx of new clients..
The selective bolding to paint a narrative that the CEO is in trouble solely due to the ills and greed of other companies disapproving of his decision is the problem. I sought to clarify for you.
For whatever reason it's always going to be a provocative subject for a lot of people here. Not too different from the strong emotional reaction to welfare. Nevermind the actual relative costs and real effects, it just goes straight to who deserves what and for what reason. It's frustrating but maybe it's just social nature in a capitalist country.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Its sad that clients pulled out just because they didnt want to support people who need money, get more money. Sour rich people are the most entitled assholes in the world.
You certainly would mind. Nobody goes through fucking 4-8 years of engineering study to make the same amount of money as an assistant.
It's not a matter of my life versus someone else's life. It's a matter of my job versus their job. If the education requirements for my job demand more than the education requirements for their job, then I should be paid more. If two jobs are paid the same and one has higher education requirements, future generations will not see a reason to get educated, and our society will just get dumber.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Nobody who dreams of being an astronaut dreams about being an astronaut for the Paycheck...
But whether or not they put in the effort to reach their dreams will be affected by the paycheck.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I dunno what jobs you have applied for but pay scales exist for experience and even within the exact same job description people get paid significantly more if they have more experience even with everything else being equal.
What you are linking also has supply and demand aspects to it. Its gaf, I was not going to get into full on economics and scales and grades of pay and market. I was making a general statement and wasnt basing it off moral capacity. In general, more education, more market skills means more pay. In general an engineer has more of that than their assistant.
Minimum wage and pay scales is how people judge if they feel they are being well paid. If minimum wage for no experience is $15 and you make $16 in a high demand market you are going to feel underpaid. I dont feel that is a tough concept.
First thing that came in mind.
"Here's a good deed i want to make that'll affect people that works for me"
"NO! FUCK YOU AND YOUR BEING A GOOD PERSON"
Sad.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
It's impossible not to even if higher education is free purely because we have X amount of years in this universe and people are using those years to go to school.
It's also part of the reason why we need to move to a guaranteed income for all vs trying to fix shit based on wage raises.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Again this false belief that money is the sole or primary motivation of anyone with an ambition.
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