Support NeoGAF

[DocSeuss]

I'm trying to understand your opinion here but this is like the exact opposite of my reality. Fallout 3 felt like a video game-ass video game. It might as well have had arrows saying: "NEXT LEVEL HERE" where themed enemy types came running out.

Hrrrm... any specific incidences? I spent most of my time in the game just kinda wandering the wastes on the borders of the world.

If it's a choice between the two of them, I'd much rather have the quest in an RPG. Obviously it would be nice to have both, but a quest is actual content and it is a better showcase for Obsidian's strengths.

Far be it from me to begrudge you that choice. I'm an immersive sim guy myself; I love inhabiting a reality rather than playing in it. If the next Fallout removed RPG abstractions and moved closer to a simulation, like STALKER or something, I can't tell you how happy I'd be, but that's just me personally.

I feel like... when you put a game in a first-person perspective, you have to design to that perspective. The world, and the act of inhabiting that world is why Fallout 3, despite its inferior main quest, poor overall writing, weak shooting mechanics, and so on and so forth, has much higher review scores. I feel that if Obsidian had made a better world--if they'd capitalized on the first-person perspective, the game would have scored higher. It was absolutely the better RPG overall, and I loved the implementation of things like the weapon modding system, but it was fighting the first person perspective the entire time.

Maybe if they'd made it like Dragon Age: Origins (that is to say: accessible isometric RPG--because admit it, you know Obsidian would make an amazing Dragon Age game), it would have been absolutely flawless, but they didn't. They made it in first person without making a very good first-person world.

I'm getting repetitive. Sorry.

I wish I could hang out at their offices and chat with them about this stuff.

Also, completely unrelated to this sub-discussion, but related to the topic at hand: Obsidian seems to need a really good negotiator. It seems like, unlike other devs, they let publishers walk all over them because they're so nice.

 

[Odrion]

I think Obsidian is slowly turning into the Double Fine of RPGs.


Nothing wrong about that

I think that's the healthiest direction the company can go in. But it doesn't seem like they want to do that.

 

[Lancehead]

But will Bethesda even want to work with them again after Obsidian went all " Bethesda engine is shit" and "Bethesda make our bonuses based on Metacritic score so we got nothing despite it selling millions" ? it was just an extreme case of burning bridges.

At this point I'd rather not work them with Bethesda in any manner. I'd consider Fallout dead. There's Wasteland 2 which is as close as a game can get to Van Buren.

I played the original fallouts and I think Fallout 3 world was better than new vegas. both have some fallout about them in different ways.

Fallout 3 has barely any "Fallout" in it. It was just a soulless barren wasteland.

 

[Trigger]

I wouldn't mind getting a new Vegas 2, as long as I get Fallout 4 next gen from Bethesda first.

I feel the same. I'd love to see the series bounce back and forth from the west and east coast.

 

[The Bookerman]

Hmmm Lucasarts didn't even let you finish the last game you did with them... so not gonna happen.

I love Kotor 2 and it's narative, but I doubt they'll go back to you guys.

 

[Deuterium]

The very fact that another KOTOR, Fallout, or Elder Scrolls game is not already in pre-production for the next generation PS4/720, tells you that no way will we have such a game ready for release for either console...which is a bit of a bummer, really.

It also begs the question...just what will be the "launch" titles for the next gen consoles?

 

[Lancehead]

Take the bethesda stuff out and I'm on board for all of those. I just don't see kotor 3 happening unless disney is alright with basically forgetting ToR exists since Bioware lazily retconned some parts of Revan's story and put their own explanation in.

Yep.

Maybe not posting bridge burning comments about the fallout/skyrim engine would help.

I'm glad they did. Shit like that needs to be told.

An Obsidian-developed Elder Scrolls game is my dream come true. Can't be any buggier than Skyrim is already.

Sure, if you no longer want a "do whatever you want, be whatever you like adventure" game, Obsidian can help do that.

 

[Glass Rebel]

If I was Bethesda I wouldn't want to work with Obsidian. It'd just make my own efforts look poor in comparison.

 

[marrec]

Sure, if you no longer want a "do whatever you want, be whatever you like adventure" game, Obsidian can help do that.

If 'do whatever you want, be whatever you want' is what Skyrim is, then I'd gladly have Obsidian free me from that banality.

 

[Lime]

How is following aesthetics ,that have been put to use for well over 20 years now, original and not generic?

Visually they did nothing new, they didn't push any paradigms in the genre.

And FYI i have just under 30 hrs for ME 1 and 45 hrs on ME 2

I'd love to see the many examples of media using the 70's sci-fi aesthetics with bright saturated colors, akin to Peter Elson/Chris Foss/Syd Mead. Because off the top of my head I can only think of Homeworld 1+2 as the sole example of the same aesthetic.

It also begs the question...just what will be the "launch" titles for the next gen consoles?

Up-ports and a platform exclusive shooter/racer.

 

[Violet_0]

Heh, I wonder if they just did a massive single player conversion of TOR would it sell well.

I watched a couple of hours of cinematics from that game (not going to spend my time playing an MMO, f2p or not), if they'd cut 70-80% of these cutscenes you'd be left with some pretty decent story material, enjoyable companions and dialogue

 

[Patryn]

Also, completely unrelated to this sub-discussion, but related to the topic at hand: Obsidian seems to need a really good negotiator. It seems like, unlike other devs, they let publishers walk all over them because they're so nice.

I don't think they're too nice, I think it's just that both they and the publisher realize that they need the publisher far more than the publisher needs them.

 

[Lancehead]

The biggest problem with both New Vegas and Alpha Protocol was that the level design was bad.

Why are you even looking at level design in an open-world game? The area design was excellent.

I think a lot of people would disagree with you there. New Vegas felt like a world inhabited by people living their lives and trying to accomplish goals - not a collection of landmarks and characters that felt more like gimmicks strewn every three feet.

Yes, and the fact that cut out the Legion regions tells something about how uncompromised the area design was.

had New Vegas been an isometric RPG, like Fallout and Fallout 2, it would have been amazing.

No doubt.

I've said it before, and it bears repeating: give me a Fallout designed and directed by Obsidian with a world crafted by Bethesda.

As long as it's Bethesda doing just the physical worldbuilding, maybe I'd be onboard.

 

[DocSeuss]

I don't think they're too nice, I think it's just that both they and the publisher realize that they need the publisher far more than the publisher needs them.

Then why does it seem like they get crap deals and tend to be screwed over more often?

Why are you even looking at level design in an open-world game? The area design was excellent.



Yes, and the fact that cut out the Legion regions tells something about how uncompromised the area design was.



No doubt.



As long as it's Bethesda doing just the physical worldbuilding, maybe I'd be onboard.

When I said "level design" I was talking about every place your character could go, including the massive level that is the worldspace. Rule number 1 of good level/world/map design in any first person game should be "never have a flat space for too long, unless you've got a means of fast traversal (cars or somesuch)." Even games like Red Dead and Far Cry follow these rules.

 

[epmode]

Sure, if you no longer want a "do whatever you want, be whatever you like adventure" game, Obsidian can help do that.

You must be referring to Bethesda's awful level and loot scaling system which ensures that everyone gets the same bland experience no matter where they go.

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else but I know there was someone very vocal about wanting to go absolutely anywhere and having the game scale itself accordingly. This is the death of exploration as far as I'm concerned, and it's the reason I stopped playing Skyrim after being hopelessly hooked for the first day or two.

 

[Lime]

I disagree. I think KOTOR II and New Vegas looked really great compared to their older brothers. Not to mentions South Park looks amazing.

Project Eternity, Alpha Protocol, and Dungeon Siege 3 unfortunately all have (imo) at best mediocre to poor concept and character art.

South Park builds upon an already established style, so it doesn't serve as any indication of Obsidian's ability to do proper concept art.

 

[dionysus]

Then why does it seem like they get crap deals and tend to be screwed over more often?

This generation is littered with the corpses of independent development houses. I am not sure why you think Obsidian has done worse than other independent developers? The fact they are still around is impressive just by itself.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Hrrrm... any specific incidences? I spent most of my time in the game just kinda wandering the wastes on the borders of the world.

You'd just find places like Republic of Dave, Little Lamplight, Rivet City, Andale, Tenpenny Tower, the Forest... areas that seemed completely isolated and disconnected from the rest of the world, just existing for the spectacle of being The Place With The Kids/The Boat/The 1950s Cannibals/The Rich Racist People/The Dude Who Runs It Like a Country/That Looks Like Oblivion.

A raider camp with a giant Super Mutant in it as a boss. Yet another Vault with yet another mystery teased through recordings and computer logs (Spoiler: they all went crazy or turned into zombies or cthulhus or draculas or whatever). Look out, Super Mutants are around because there's literal bloody bags of body parts just sitting around on tables for whatever reason. It's the Brotherhood of Steel: The good guys, in shining armor! And the Outcasts, who are bad and evil because their armor is red like a red lightsaber so they're bad even though they're literally the same as the original BoS. And now for the Enclave! Why are they here? Who knows, but they're still around. Now make the Jesus Choice that benefits the whole wasteland or the Hitler Choice that you have no real reason to make other than just being a jerk for some reason.


In New Vegas, every place and character felt like it had a relationship with something else, an ideology or reason driving it. Legion territory bore the marks of former decadence and consumption burned to the ground, the scorched earth of a invasion's vanguard. You could find alcohol and drugs in Legion officer's quarters, showing the hypocrisy of their leadership towards policies designed to manipulate the average citizen and soldier into following a civic religion. NCR territory was corrupt, dirty, and poorly managed, in constant fear of attack or change; tensions in New Vegas were high outside the Strip. Novac sold scrap from the rocket factory to the rest of the wasteland, and was in trouble when the Nightkin and Ghouls moved in, who each had their own agendas. The Strip itself was filled with Families resisting change, Families attempting coups from various sides, House's machinations in attempting to assert himself as an independent power in the region. The long twisted relationship between the Followers of the Apocalypse, the Mormon missionaries, the tribes of the Wasteland, and Caesar's Legion. The failing power of the Brotherhood, the remnants of the Enclave trying to move on.

All of that engrossed me, made the Mojave feel like its own world. Everything had a place, a meaning behind it. Themes about tradition, about the future and what you choose to pass on, about the effect of one man on history; they all reverberated through the quests and the DLC. I was able to actually role-play a character, who changed in ways I never intended in response to naturally unfolding things in the Wasteland.


I never felt like that in FO3 (or Skyrim, for that matter). In those games I was just a nameless character wandering around an amusement park, following the hollow marker on my compass that said "ANOTHER ATTRACTION THIS WAY." (I'll give Skyrim credit, it's the most advanced Scandinavian Wilderness Wandering Sim ever created, which I can say without irony is a genre with some merit)

 

[Stallion Free]

Some of the environment design in Dungeon Siege 3 was fantastic, particularly the later areas. The characters left a lot to be desired, but I had zero complaints with the environment art.

 

[zkylon]

Project Eternity, Alpha Protocol, and Dungeon Siege 3 unfortunately all have (imo) at best mediocre to poor concept and character art.

South Park builds upon an already established style, so it doesn't serve as any indication of Obsidian's ability to do proper concept art.

Are you nuts? Alpha Protocol has awesome character art.

It's just Mike Thornton that's boring, and you can fix that by turning him into Fidel Castro.

 

[Tex117]

Some of the best writers in the business.

 

[MormaPope]

I'll buy 5 copies of KOTOR 3, and 5 copies of a new Fallout done by Obsidian.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

Then why does it seem like they get crap deals and tend to be screwed over more often?

I think thats likely true of any independent developer dealing with "AAA" console games. There's a reason those types of developers are a dying breed. In Obsidian's case it seems at least partially that its because their failures or shortcomings end up being fairly visible and they talk about them.

 

[Hindle]

New Vegas really sold these guys to me, I'd have them work on any franchise out there. Hel even Mass Effect, show Bioware how it's done.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

The very fact that another KOTOR, Fallout, or Elder Scrolls game is not already in pre-production for the next generation PS4/720, tells you that no way will we have such a game ready for release for either console...which is a bit of a bummer, really.

It also begs the question...just what will be the "launch" titles for the next gen consoles?

Why are you so intent on seeing more of the same? It's certain that most if not all of those will see next-gen releases within the next five years, but I'd rather see a lot of new shit that isn't encumbered with franchise expectations and familiarity that comes from many games in its past, whether direct ancestors or simply competing clones that are part of their own franchise. Next-gen should be all new (with new ambitions and not just new IPs on top of old ones) as much as possible.

 

[Lancehead]

When I said "level design" I was talking about every place your character could go, including the massive level that is the worldspace. Rule number 1 of good level/world/map design in any first person game should be "never have a flat space for too long, unless you've got a means of fast traversal (cars or somesuch)." Even games like Red Dead and Far Cry follow these rules.

Yes, I know, you're approaching it from a "immersive sim" perspective, as you already said, but Obsidian were building a roleplaying world (even in an open world design). And they did a great job of that, as EmCeeGramr highlighted above. As for it being open-world, it shouldn't have been, but what can they do.

 

[Levyne]

Tuuurnn up, the radio

 

[Miletius]

KOTOR 3 by Obsidian is never going to happen and it's a damn shame. Just reminds me of what an axe job Bioware did to The Exile and Revan.

Looking forward to SP and all their future projects though.

 

[Vlodril]

Good article and really interesting information. Nice job.

Also never show those aliens pics before.. now i am bummed.

 

[jschreier]

Good article and really interesting information. Nice job.

Thanks.

 

[Lancehead]

Thanks.

I'd like to point out that Josh Sawyer did not lead development on NWN2 as you wrote.

 

[Wallach]

Yes, I know, you're approaching it from a "immersive sim" perspective, as you already said, but Obsidian were building a roleplaying world (even in an open world design). And they did a great job of that, as EmCeeGramr highlighted above. As for it being open-world, it shouldn't have been, but what can they do.

You don't think Fallout should have been open world?

 

[Trick_GSF]

New Vegas 2.

 

[Blue Lou]

We already got KotOR 3, 4, 5...

This has gone over my head, what's he referring to ?

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

This has gone over my head, what's he referring to ?

In the lead up to releasing The Old Republic, BioWare often stated that The Old Republic could be considered Knights of the Old Republic 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8, based on how much content was in the game.

 

[zkylon]

I wonder how much people would a "bribe Todd Howard to make Fallout 4" kickstarter get.

Or maybe just a "kill Todd Howard".

Yeah, let's do the second one, be on the safe side.

 

[Hindle]

The fact they're talking to Lucasarts tells me even they are thinking about KOTOR 3.

 

[Labadal]

A perfect fit would be Obsidian and Game of Thrones, but unfortunately, a game based on that has already been released.

I'm completely fine with whatever they do as long as it gives the player choice. I just hope their next game is a more serious one, unlike South Park (wich I will buy).

KOTOR III and New Vegas 2 are both unlikely to happen imo. They do have one unannounced project right now, so that's exciting. Personally hope it's a new IP.

 

[DocSeuss]

You must be referring to Bethesda's awful level and loot scaling system which ensures that everyone gets the same bland experience no matter where they go.

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else but I know there was someone very vocal about wanting to go absolutely anywhere and having the game scale itself accordingly. This is the death of exploration as far as I'm concerned, and it's the reason I stopped playing Skyrim after being hopelessly hooked for the first day or two.

Bethesda really needs to figure out a way to do this beyond the "lol that's so fake and gamey" of scaling (always being somewhat challenging) and the "lol that's so fake and gamey" of creating leveled zones.

You'd just find places like Republic of Dave, Little Lamplight, Rivet City, Andale, Tenpenny Tower, the Forest... areas that seemed completely isolated and disconnected from the rest of the world, just existing for the spectacle of being The Place With The Kids/The Boat/The 1950s Cannibals/The Rich Racist People/The Dude Who Runs It Like a Country/That Looks Like Oblivion.

A raider camp with a giant Super Mutant in it as a boss. Yet another Vault with yet another mystery teased through recordings and computer logs (Spoiler: they all went crazy or turned into zombies or cthulhus or draculas or whatever). Look out, Super Mutants are around because there's literal bloody bags of body parts just sitting around on tables for whatever reason. It's the Brotherhood of Steel: The good guys, in shining armor! And the Outcasts, who are bad and evil because their armor is red like a red lightsaber so they're bad even though they're literally the same as the original BoS. And now for the Enclave! Why are they here? Who knows, but they're still around. Now make the Jesus Choice that benefits the whole wasteland or the Hitler Choice that you have no real reason to make other than just being a jerk for some reason.

In New Vegas, every place and character felt like it had a relationship with something else, an ideology or reason driving it. Legion territory bore the marks of former decadence and consumption burned to the ground, the scorched earth of a invasion's vanguard. You could find alcohol and drugs in Legion officer's quarters, showing the hypocrisy of their leadership towards policies designed to manipulate the average citizen and soldier into following a civic religion. NCR territory was corrupt, dirty, and poorly managed, in constant fear of attack or change; tensions in New Vegas were high outside the Strip. Novac sold scrap from the rocket factory to the rest of the wasteland, and was in trouble when the Nightkin and Ghouls moved in, who each had their own agendas. The Strip itself was filled with Families resisting change, Families attempting coups from various sides, House's machinations in attempting to assert himself as an independent power in the region. The long twisted relationship between the Followers of the Apocalypse, the Mormon missionaries, the tribes of the Wasteland, and Caesar's Legion. The failing power of the Brotherhood, the remnants of the Enclave trying to move on.

All of that engrossed me, made the Mojave feel like its own world. Everything had a place, a meaning behind it. Themes about tradition, about the future and what you choose to pass on, about the effect of one man on history; they all reverberated through the quests and the DLC. I was able to actually role-play a character, who changed in ways I never intended in response to naturally unfolding things in the Wasteland.

I never felt like that in FO3 (or Skyrim, for that matter). In those games I was just a nameless character wandering around an amusement park, following the hollow marker on my compass that said "ANOTHER ATTRACTION THIS WAY." (I'll give Skyrim credit, it's the most advanced Scandinavian Wilderness Wandering Sim ever created, which I can say without irony is a genre with some merit)

See, you're getting into areas of role-playing, and I absolutely agree that Obsidian does RP better. Still, you are right that some areas feel incongruent (particularly the vampire camp), though I feel at least some of what you're mentioning has been blown out of proportion just a bit.

Fallout 3's world is nasty, and mostly uninhabited. These places are isolated from each other, not so much by distance, but by the hostility of the world. Unlike New Vegas' world, which is largely undamaged, Fallout 3's is riddled with raiders, radiation, and hostile super mutants. The only place that stuck out to me as "how is this even here?" was that one guy's 'romantic' mansion on the outskirts of downtown DC, which was surrounded by mirelurks.

I could easily believe (at least in Fallout's crazy universe) that most of Fallout 3's weird little towns would have sprung up where they did, the way they did, just as I could easily believe New Vegas' current state (well, not entirely; since it didn't get bombed, it seems to be in almost unusually bad shape). The history of the space, though--what shapes the placement of the world and the buildings within it--seems to be a lot better in Fallout 3's case.

Yes, I know, you're approaching it from a "immersive sim" perspective, as you already said, but Obsidian were building a roleplaying world (even in an open world design). And they did a great job of that, as EmCeeGramr highlighted above. As for it being open-world, it shouldn't have been, but what can they do.

No, they focused on building a roleplaying world, but used an immersive perspective, but failed to use that perspective well. It's still bad, even if it functions well in a specific way. Having alcohol in an officer's quarters to show what kind of guy he is, while great, doesn't mitigate how poorly the world on the whole is designed. At the base level, the world is not enjoyable to navigate, not when the player can, for instance, hit Q, go get a drink, come back, and find that their character is still walking forward, unimpeded by any obstacles.

 

[Extra Sauce]

They are an ambitious bunch. It's easily their best and worst quality, but I wouldn't want them to change that fact at all.

It's possible to be ambitious without making unrealistic commitments that later force you to release unfinished games.

 

[MuddyDonut]

I really hope South Park sells amazingly well for them. No company deserves major success like Obsidian.



Is AP1 really that good? I have yet to play it.

It's not fun to play, but it's really neat.

 

[zkylon]

A perfect fit would be Obsidian and Game of Thrones, but unfortunately, a game based on that has already been released.

I'm completely fine with whatever they do as long as it gives the player choice. I just hope their next game is a more serious one, unlike South Park (wich I will buy).

KOTOR III and New Vegas 2 are both unlikely to happen imo. They do have one unannounced project right now, so that's exciting. Personally hope it's a new IP.

For some reason I always thought you worked at Obs. Huh.

I'd kinda like to see what they'd do with Deus Ex or Thief or something like that, but mostly I want either more Fallout or the weirdest stuff that can come out of MCA/JES minds.

It's possible to be ambitious without making unrealistic commitments that later force you to release unfinished games.

It's possible to strike a better balance than Obsidian has done in the past, but you can't be ambitious without sacrificing something, either scope, polish, stability, etc. The thing about Obsidian is that they have that Eastern European soul that thinks that can do everything and the result may be messy, but you can see the underlying genius and artistry of narrative/mechanics, something that's completely absent in games like Mass Effect 3 or Skyrim. They're just too neat, too concerned with the player's feelings or whatever, that they feel soulless.

 

[NinjaTehFish]

I'd love to see the many examples of media using the 70's sci-fi aesthetics with bright saturated colors, akin to Peter Elson/Chris Foss/Syd Mead. Because off the top of my head I can only think of Homeworld 1+2 as the sole example of the same aesthetic.



Up-ports and a platform exclusive shooter/racer.

Starwars , Startrek, Halo, The fith element, Starship troopers, Farscape i could go on. Yeah majority of sci-fi has been influenced by these guys work and yes after 20-30yrs of this i consider what Mass Effect managed to distill as almost insipidly bland. If your going to be "inspired" fair enough but build onto it so it becomes more than what it was. At best ME was generic sci-fi presenting nothing New to the genre thematically or aesthetically and at worst was lazy and uninspired.

 

[KingKong]

I tried playing Kotor 1/2 recently and man, they don't hold up well at all. The combat is awful and the story/characters are mediocre at best and I know they're not new games but for 2003/2004 the environments are pretty awful

 

[Lime]

Are you nuts? Alpha Protocol has awesome character art.



It's just Mike Thornton that's boring, and you can fix that by turning him into Fidel Castro.

Sorry man, I'm not digging it. Bland half-bald white guy with glasses + The Epitome of Hot Topic + decent Asian navy person + weird 80's playboy with a sword. 3 out of those 4 characters don't seem to jive very well with a spy thriller genre, imo.

Agree about the Fidel Castro thing though. That was the first thing I did as well :lol

 

[Lancehead]

You don't think Fallout should have been open world?

No. Plenty of things that have been affected negatively because of that (first person open world, to be more accurate).

First person combat: Skill of the player taking precedence over skill of the character. Tactical depth in combat lost. (Although I don't think strategic depth was)

Open world design: Scale in videogame worlds is always way smaller than real world, but some of the stuff was really bad in New Vegas. What it would take days in Fallout 1 or 2 to get to, now you reach in minutes. Sandbox design means you're limited in the areas you can include in the world, and it's difficult to establish the sandbox's place in the greater universe. E.g. Legion being under developed. If the game had world design like Fallout 1 & 2, Obsidian probably could've included Legion regions, and cut out some other stuff instead.

First person also means you're limited in writing possibilities as everything needs to be voice acted.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Man a new KOTOR by Obsidian would make the next gen for me.

 

[zkylon]

Sorry man, I'm not digging it. Bland half-bald white guy with glasses + The Epitome of Hot Topic + decent Asian navy person + weird 80's playboy with a sword. 3 out of those 4 characters don't seem to jive very well with a spy thriller genre, imo.

Agree about the Fidel Castro thing though. That was the first thing I did as well :lol

I really liked the characters in the game and I think they went as wild as they could while keeping the game grounded in reality (I remember MC saying they wanted to stay outside Kill Bill levels, but I would've rather they went full bananas), but sure, to each their own.

I think Alpha Protocol as a whole is great and terribly clever, I'd love a sequel, Obsidian sounds like they could rock a sequel so hard.

 

[NinjaTehFish]

........

First person combat: Skill of the player taking precedence over skill of the character. Tactical depth in combat lost. (Although I don't think strategic depth was)

This is untrue hits are still based somewhat on chance/character stats to the point where there is "shoot straight mod"

Open world design: Scale in videogame worlds is always way smaller than real world, but some of the stuff was really bad in New Vegas. What it would take days in Fallout 1 or 2 to get to, now you reach in minutes. Sandbox design means you're limited in the areas you can include in the world, and it's difficult to establish the sandbox's place in the greater universe. E.g. Legion being under developed. If the game had world design like Fallout 1 & 2, Obsidian probably could've included Legion regions, and cut out some other stuff instead.

I didnt feel this. In fact i feel traveling large distances in games is a pain in the arse, I mean i used to hate hyrul field even I agree with the bolded though......

First person also means you're limited in writing possibilities as everything needs to be voice acted.

Uh........no?

 

[MormaPope]

I tried playing Kotor 1/2 recently and man, they don't hold up well at all. The combat is awful and the story/characters are mediocre at best and I know they're not new games but for 2003/2004 the environments are pretty awful

Disagree completly. KOTOR 1&2 is addictive on every level for me personally.