Kevin Shields
Member
I love both but Hitman is more a puzzle game and doesn't support a lot of mechanically ingenuity like MGSV. Both are great but I preferring playing MGSV's style a lot more.
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OPINION: Horizon Zero Dawn is the game MGSV should have been
- Thread starter SolidChamp
- Start date
I love both but Hitman is more a puzzle game and doesn't support a lot of mechanically ingenuity like MGSV. Both are great but I preferring playing MGSV's style a lot more.
The only thing MGSV should of have been/done is finish the one cut mission 51. Included GZ with TPP and finally restructured chapter 2. Everything else was fantastic the Gameplay is still above any other open world game. Horizon looks incredible has a interesting narrative but if we are to judge it purely on how fun it is to play well MGSV surpasses it completely. The plot in MGS games have been crap since MGS4 so it being underwhelming in MGSV was not a surprise at least it focused on being a game this time around.
I'm not just using my own likes/dislikes as guidance here, and I absolutely consider MGSV to have an objectively poor story because it tells it so inconsistently and sporadically, and I believe this can be proven.
Objectivity isn't as illusive as you claim, and the video you linked merely gives an extreme example of objective analysis.
SolidChamp
Banned
People keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it beyond "I used X to stop Y in their tracks and then blew them up with Z."
There's that neat gameplay vid someone posted a few pages back. But that wasn't some mind-altering, revelatory gameplay mechanic akin to, say, forwarding your system's internal clock several years so that an old man sniper dies of extreme old age.
Try again MGSV.
People are talking more about clockwork systems that intermingle and create weird dynamic and unpredictable things.
The MGS3 example is a funny easter egg that is amusing the first time you see it and can't be called an actual mechanic.
capylikesgames
Banned
I haven't played either, so I might not have room to talk, but I strongly disagree. Horizon is a beautiful game, but MGS5 is gorgeous too, and it's impressive how they squeezed out the performance they did on current gen consoles, even today. I don't think either runs laps around the other visually, they both manage to impress in regards visuals to performance.
Horizon doesn't even come close to measuring up to MGS5 in the gameplay department, and while it has a nice enough narrative, I wouldn't trade MGS5's gameplay for that. Horizon is basically a Ubisoft open-world game with nice combat and a nicer story, but doesn't really achieve any truly great feats. It presents a familiar product in a more polished fashion than we are used to, and it deserves accolades for that, but it still fails to impress as much as MGS5 did when I first got my hands on it. Granted, it may not have disappointed me as greatly as MGS5 did either, but Horizon didn't have the narrative baggage of many games preceding it.
Not even close or remotely similar.
If MGSV would've been like Horizon in terms of encounters and enemy bases it would outright suck.
The whole point of MGSV is having TONS of options to take on anything, and the whole organic gameplay system that can change between stealth and mayhem in such smooth and dynamic fashion. The world itself isn't even the point in MGSV, it's just there to give the freedom of approaching different stuff and it serves it's purpose.
It's pretty bizzare to even compare the games IMO.
If MGSV would've been like Horizon in terms of encounters and enemy bases it would outright suck.
The whole point of MGSV is having TONS of options to take on anything, and the whole organic gameplay system that can change between stealth and mayhem in such smooth and dynamic fashion. The world itself isn't even the point in MGSV, it's just there to give the freedom of approaching different stuff and it serves it's purpose.
It's pretty bizzare to even compare the games IMO.
IrishNinja
Member
looking forward to trying Horizon one day, but ya'll should really ease up MGS V - if you played Peace Walker, it kinda flowed from that & was a superior game to 4 on every conceivable level, too.
family_guy
Member
I found fighting the machines in Horizon more engaging than fighting basic humans in MGS5. The humans just don't have enough variations in abilities.
PW hade the overall structure of PP but as far as the levels went a more limited version of Snake Eater. MGS V took the concept to another level.
That's what I wanted. What we got felt like a waste of development time and money.
I'm referring to the open world.
Radical Edward
Member
I Wouldn't say improvement. It's on a similar level
I agree, but I doubt too much time was taken for the stuff outside of the bases? It's mostly empty nothingness.
MrS
Banned
I like both games but I enjoyed my time with MGS V a lot more. In terms of stealth gameplay, HZD is nowhere near as good as MGS V. The enemy AI is quite poor in Horizon and combat isn't as enjoyable. The cracks really started to show with Horizon when I hit 30 hours; I was still enjoying MGS after 100 hours.
While Horizon looks better and has a much, much better story, MGS plays better, has a wider array of bells and whistles and more variety for the player IMO.
While Horizon looks better and has a much, much better story, MGS plays better, has a wider array of bells and whistles and more variety for the player IMO.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
What a strange take. I don't get a similar feeling to MGSV when playing Horizon at all.
Both are great, but MGSV is in a different league (that Breath of the Wild just jumped into) when it comes to interacting systems and fun gameplay mechanics.
Both are great, but MGSV is in a different league (that Breath of the Wild just jumped into) when it comes to interacting systems and fun gameplay mechanics.
Solid Shammy
Banned
But you are, because there's nothing inherently wrong with MGSV's narrative being told at a steadier pace over a larger amount of playtime, you just describe it as inconsistent and sporadic because you don't like it. Which is as I've said fine. Your true problem comes down to not understanding what something being truly objective means. The things you describe exist yes, but they don't exist negative by default, you apply those criticisms through your own subjective viewpoint. You're actually deeply limiting the potential of storytelling in all forms of media by arbitrarily assigning positive and negative defaults to concepts as if there is some objective truth in the first place. Storytelling doesn't exist in the world of objectivity, it never has and never will.
To give you an unrelated example to help you see where I'm coming from. There are crazy people out there who think that 30fps is better than 60fps because it's more cinematic. I'd say to them, objectively speaking 60fps is more responsive which makes controlling games easier. That's a fair objective statement on my behalf, but it still doesn't make me objectively right, because they still like the presentation of content at a lower framerate more. They might believe it makes the cutscenes look more filmic and immersive and prefer the sacrifice of response for the visual difference. This is where subjectivity comes in, this is where I have no right to say they're objectively wrong for preferring a lower framerate. Because even though there are objective differences between a high framerate and a low framerate, it comes down to individual preference for who prefers one difference over another.
Both games are so overrated imo :I
MGS V had good gameplay and a terrible open world... lame story and chapter two repeating stuff was a fucking disgrace.
Horizon had a good story, some good side quests... but still suffered from the open world plague of ubisoft checklists - kill that bandit camp! open your map more here! go to this bunker so you can overload more creatures!
MGS V had good gameplay and a terrible open world... lame story and chapter two repeating stuff was a fucking disgrace.
Horizon had a good story, some good side quests... but still suffered from the open world plague of ubisoft checklists - kill that bandit camp! open your map more here! go to this bunker so you can overload more creatures!
Aaronology
Member
I see people keep making this statement but yet no one actually explains exactly what they mean by it.
I find it fairly inaccurate and pretty ridiculous, myself.
There are objective flaws to MGSV's storytelling, and I believe I've outlined some and there are plenty of in depth articles/posts that cover others.
It probably doesn't get expanded upon much, because for anyone who has played it, the similarities are immediately obvious. Horizon most resembles these kinds of games -- big maps with lots of empty space, collectibles, light RPG elements, crafting, and so on. Where it excels over a common Ubi title is in its enemy and combat design, quality of its story, and side quest quality. Even with these improvements though, I couldn't shake the overly familiar feeling of having played it all before. It's not the same feeling I got while playing MGS5 or TW3.
Solid Shammy
Banned
And I've outline why they're not negatives. Why do you hold the objective flag?
I've explained why, and you've done nothing to convince me otherwise.
I actually never agree with these points, and I think Horizon handled it all pretty well:
there were only 5 Tallnecks and they're more interesting than your usual AC tower, there were only 6 bandit camps and it was worth completing them for the small sidequest with Nil, not just to get meaningless rewards.
the bunkers are basically dungeons and they were not so similar to each other and some were even super short, and there were only 4!
the collectibles were especially awesome...the 12 Vantages were in hard to reach places and gave a great emotional little story, plus the visual brilliance of them.
The 4 Banuk figures had an awesome story aswell, and the way to them wasn't challenging but just cool (it was basically an Uncharted parkour sequence).
The 30 Metal Flowers had beautiful poems in them and added to the lore, but there were too many...they encouraged you to explore the world though, as they were placed in places you probably wouldn't visit otherwise (with corresponding challenges).
The 12 Vessels were really just drab collectibles.
So to summarize, I think they nailed the right amount of stuff.
Plus their added value of lore and characters made it more interesting than the usually bland AC tower or Far Cry outpost.
Solid Shammy
Banned
No you haven't, you've just said that you disagree and haven't once actually attempted to debate me on the deeper explanations I've presented to you. Your whole argument is literally, 'because I say so, and heaps of people don't like it too, therefore objective truth!' I'm most definitely tired of this back and forth so far. All I can really say in response to you is to have a read up on what actual objectivity means, and that I'm right, and I've explained why. You've done nothing to convince me otherwise.
Man, I have commented on this already, vague similarity doesnt equate an outright derivation of the same thing. Ubisoft didnt invent collectables, light RPG elements, big spaces or big maps...seriously, the connection is tenuous at best. With its dialogue systems, side-quests and deep lore, Horizon is closer to TW3 than to any Ubisoft game.
CharminUltra
Member
Your mom is an Ubisoft open world game
Actually I kinda sorta feel bad for Ubi that this is now thrown around as a kinda sorta insult.
Actually I kinda sorta feel bad for Ubi that this is now thrown around as a kinda sorta insult.
I hope Kojima uses the Nexus system from AssCreed in his next game, or maybe the I-formation system from Madden. The brick & bottle system from The Last of Us would also add some depth.
dr_p0p7ar7_
Member
Disagree but I think I liked the engine more.
Aaronology
Member
Agreed. HZD takes a lot of cues from The Witcher 3 and is easily the first game I'd compare it to before any other. The Ubisoft comparisons are... odd.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Totally agree it being open world killed it for me.. 1 to 4 were perfect
But Horizon doesn't have lots empty space, or even a big map, sure it's not tiny or ram packed with stuff, but MSG5 and W3 are far worse at this than that and it's hardly something you only find in Ubi open world games, pretty much every open world has those problems, it come with the having a open world. And it has like what? 50 collectables? Not sure, but it's nowhere close to how many Ubi pack into their games. As for light RPG elements and crafting again hardly a thing that's uncommon in non-Ubi open world games. At least people aren't using the 5 towers and 5 bandit camps anymore to say it's just another Ubi game.
The only thing that Horizon does which really reminded me of FC3, 4 and probably Primal (haven't played it) was the hunting animals for skins to upgrade your ammo capacity.
Solid Shammy
Banned
Don't know if you'll read this, but I just wanna say that I caught your original message and I was totally cool with it. I've definitely said all I have to say, and in the end we're not even really disagreeing on anything other than when it is appropriate to classify something as objective or not. It's all a bit pointless, and it doesn't matter what words we use to describe our position on something. We both know where we stand on MGSV and its narrative, being objective or not we'll both still hold the same differing views. So yeah, have a good day.
Z..
Member
Jesus... I genuinely do not understand the 4 fans. MG2 and MGS1/2/3/5 are all masterpieces which could be argued to be the best in the series, each in vastly different ways. 4 excels at absolutely nothing. It's an uninteresting game mechanically with an unnecessary story that goes nowhere made just to appease fans and provide closure to a narrativa that has always transcended the confines of it's medium. It cheapens the series in a way that accomplishes nothing.
Solid Shammy
Banned
I think 4 was a sincere attempt in a way for Kojima to try and give closure for the fans. He really tried his best to make something his hardcore base would love. I think he succeeded in making something crazy and fun, and I always love replaying it. Sure it does a lot of silly things, but everything about it just screams being a love letter to the fans. It might not be that necessary in the grand scheme of things, and even undermine certain aspects of previous games, but I still love it for what it is.
MegaSackman
Member
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
They just point at extremely superficial similarities and go "see?!". Like equating Tallnecks with the Ubisoft towers.
It is, indeed, ridiculous.
Good point.
Horizon is a Ubisoft game if Ubisoft did it right, lacked most of the fluff, had actual great combat and mechanics, a legitimately good variety of quests, polish, a great story, and just respected your time and recognized quality is better than quantity.
... so very little like most modern Ubisoft games.
... so very little like most modern Ubisoft games.
Add me to the strongly disagree pile.
I loved my time with MGSV and HZD. HZD is a lot of fun but isn't a patch on MGSV gameplay. Also HZD certainly has a story that keeps the game moving but if you want to compare it to MGS franchise again it can't stand up to the ambitious mayhem Hideo imagined.
Also I'm not sure what you think at this point comparing a 2015 cross gen game with a 2017 PS4 exclusive achieves. On the five platforms MGSV release on it performed extremely well on all of them which was a technical achievement in of itself. If Hideo had the choice to work with Decima or the engine he built from the ground up I think he would pick the latter. I would certainly want him to.
At no point during my entire play through did I ever think of MGSV or the MGS franchise. I think the connections you're making here are imagined. HZD very much has its own voice and it isn't that of continuing MGS style and/or gameplay or making it better.
I loved my time with MGSV and HZD. HZD is a lot of fun but isn't a patch on MGSV gameplay. Also HZD certainly has a story that keeps the game moving but if you want to compare it to MGS franchise again it can't stand up to the ambitious mayhem Hideo imagined.
Also I'm not sure what you think at this point comparing a 2015 cross gen game with a 2017 PS4 exclusive achieves. On the five platforms MGSV release on it performed extremely well on all of them which was a technical achievement in of itself. If Hideo had the choice to work with Decima or the engine he built from the ground up I think he would pick the latter. I would certainly want him to.
At no point during my entire play through did I ever think of MGSV or the MGS franchise. I think the connections you're making here are imagined. HZD very much has its own voice and it isn't that of continuing MGS style and/or gameplay or making it better.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
MGS V's open world is less like an Ubisoft game and more like an ARMA, Operation Flashpoint, or even classic Delta Force.
It's open space solely for the logistics of travel, scouting, planning, and approach -- the last thing it needs is ?s and !s in every corner to ding.
If there is any game that MGS V should have been more like, it's probably just the MGS V in the original trailers lol. As in, the original trailers that showed the open world full of more life: helicopters, supply trucks, recon patrols, etc. It just needed more 'infrastructure' NPC life: a linear improvement to its existing design; not a complete redesign with an Ubisoft inspired quest-based world design.
The last thing MGS V needed was more ?s and !s to quest. Hell, it needed less. Even the SPEC OPs should have never ever been placed on the Map, and instead just been left to randomly spawn and randomly discover as 'events.'
It's open space solely for the logistics of travel, scouting, planning, and approach -- the last thing it needs is ?s and !s in every corner to ding.
If there is any game that MGS V should have been more like, it's probably just the MGS V in the original trailers lol. As in, the original trailers that showed the open world full of more life: helicopters, supply trucks, recon patrols, etc. It just needed more 'infrastructure' NPC life: a linear improvement to its existing design; not a complete redesign with an Ubisoft inspired quest-based world design.
The last thing MGS V needed was more ?s and !s to quest. Hell, it needed less. Even the SPEC OPs should have never ever been placed on the Map, and instead just been left to randomly spawn and randomly discover as 'events.'
Solid Shammy
Banned
I completely agree, a more refined MGSV with Peace Walker style co-op is my dream game. Oh and your idea for the side ops being essentially random events to run into instead of a monotonous checklist has been my exact thought for awhile now. Another awesome thing that I wish was in the game was actual conflict between the Soviets and rebels dynamically taking place in the open world, the emergent possibilities with just that one addition would've been incredible.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It's not identical to one, and where there are similarities it improves upon those areas compared to Ubi's stuff. But it still doesn't go far enough to distance itself from those games, so that I don't get hit with the usual fatigue after several hours. For me, I would love to see a sequel go deeper into the RPG systems in place, and to incentivize me to explore outside of where an icon or marker was telling me to go -- I never really felt like their was a reason to go off the beaten path, because everything of value was already marked on my map. All I would ever find was a pretty vista, or possibly a datapoint. It would have been really exciting to find rare enemies, weapons, or armor.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
The stealth systems in Horizon do not hold a candle tin MGSV. Horizon has a simple stealth mechanic involving bushes, MGSV has a stealth system that involves much more than just line of sight. MGSV could have benefited from having more to do in the open-world, but that wasn't it's goal. The open world served as a canvas for which you plan infiltration of bases with 100% freedom. A purpose it achieved remarkably. MGSV from a gameplay standpoint is stealth game Nirvana.
Honestly, I think MGSV is a better game overall than Horizon.
Honestly, I think MGSV is a better game overall than Horizon.