Riky
$MSFT
So the game will actually arrive earlier than if it was kept in house with all the recruitment needed, just like I said many many pages ago.
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So the game will actually arrive earlier than if it was kept in house with all the recruitment needed, just like I said many many pages ago.
Topher
Gold Member
But does earlier mean better? I hope so.
Kokoloko85
Member
Is this game 3rd or 1st person? I loved both Perfect Dark and Zero. I remember the sweet launch night
Topher
Gold Member
I'm hoping for third person myself.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Confirmed first person already via their initial reveal interview.
Topher
Gold Member
sigh....oh well
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
The 1st group is better for the longterm though because they would be able to operate on their own in a year or so without needing an AAA studio like Crystal Dynamics to come in and do the heavy lifting
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I was wishing it was in 3rd person too. A futuristic 3rd person shooter in the Perfect Dark world sounds way more appealing
Topher
Gold Member
I think it is a mistake. Third person is more fun on consoles. Guess I'll play on PC.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
A lot of good points in this post, and a lot of truth about the industry now.
I am loving Elden ring and it’s more than what I expected but I see your point in some way. Thanks for the perspective, which I didn’t think of in some ways.
bender
What time is it?
Unfortunately, innovation is a hard ask when games are so expensive and take so long to make. One failed title can tank a studio.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
It doesn't seem like it will be the typical kind of first person shooter.
Seems they're differentiating it in a way to emphasize what they consider to be proper "spy-fighting" with a lot of high agility moves, such as running and sliding under tables, hopping over tables I'm guessing, lots of camera movement, almost like a go pro. Seems they want to make simply moving around in an environment feel different from your typical shooter. Look forward to seeing what they do, but I feel good about it.
Of the 4 people shown in this interview, 3 of them are gone with only Gallagher remaining, but that personally doesn't scare me. I wished they would have stayed on honestly, but things happen and you have to progress anyway. I have a great deal of confidence in what the team they have remaining can do with Crystal Dynamics. They have the experience, and they could end up with something interesting with different people stepping up to the plate.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
But I don't see why they couldn't work on growing to become that while working with Crystal Dynamics.
Microsoft first announced the studio in 2018, and in that time up until the game's announcement in 2020, all the way up to 2021, they still had about less than 70 people. It seems it was much too early for them to be able to meet their lofty ambitions for Perfect Dark without help outside their own hiring, and Crystal Dynamics brings in up to 500 people according to LinkedIn.
Do we want The Initiative to make a much smaller, episodic style game that doesn't get the budget and team it deserves due to the expected growing pains that come with a new studio, or do we want them gunning for the very height of their biggest ambitions using Crystal Dynamics right out the gate.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
That's also a good point. I say Crystal Dynamics is good for the short term to get a game out as soon as possible but now we're hearing it might be a soft reboot so either way we're looking at 2025 - 2027 for a release
Team Andromeda
Member
Please ... Even if you're part of the 'creative process' does not always mean you own the IP rights, like with Mass Effect, where MS were part of the 'creative process' or where the developer just changed the title like with Project Gotham Racing, never mind SEGA Europe were part of the 'creative process' in MSR
It's amazing the double standards on this board. When a game is in trouble is MS not being able to handle a project, but when its Bay 3 or Prime 4 it take your time, I can wait. When MS buys a studio it's them being desperate and can't set up their own, but when SONY buys most of its In-House studios it's brilliant and to be celebrated
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CeeJay
Member
I think you under-estimate how long it can take to fill specialist tech roles. I have spent over a year trying to fill significantly less specialised positions in tech, it's going to be ridiculously tough when you have 100s of positions to fill. I would imagine that it would be much easier to fill a position if you already have some completed projects and a tangible track record behind you rather than an unproven startup. No matter how much money is behind the studio it would still be a risk to go and work there. I think the route they went was probably the right one, no shame in contracting in assistance until you find your natural groove.
Papacheeks
Banned
Just watched Jez Cordon's 2 cents on the issue. And I agree with his assessment. And literally he iterates that internally the people who were hired sounds like Phil or whoever sold them like Snake oil salesman. They said the right things in terms of developer freedom being agile to make smaller projects within the studio. Similar to Moon studios guys behind Ori. But once officially Microsoft made the announcment about them making AAAA style titles and perfect Dark being the first AAAA, I think the veil of what Microsoft wanted finally was pulled.
So this is 100% not developer issue, it's a Microsoft issue in how they set this developer up expectation wise.
I feel really bad now, Microsoft literally set this studio up to have issues in how they structured them.
I really hope other studios are not getting mixed messaging from Microsoft higher ups in what they expect and when they expect it.
So this is 100% not developer issue, it's a Microsoft issue in how they set this developer up expectation wise.
I feel really bad now, Microsoft literally set this studio up to have issues in how they structured them.
I really hope other studios are not getting mixed messaging from Microsoft higher ups in what they expect and when they expect it.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
StealthGoblin
Banned
The first group were sold a different vision initially. When you are headhunted, told you’ll have essentially a blank chequebook, total creative freedom, and as much time as needed, you join and want that to happen.
They were mis sold the vision and yet again it’s poor management from Xbox Studios. I had hoped Gallagher would have sorted this out, but he seems at quite a lot of fault for this.
Papacheeks
Banned
Slimy makes some point that I understand is something the industry is dealing with. But making games at high quality is not a issue some are having. His points on bringing up Bioware, they literally destroyed themselves with poor project managment and having EA forcing developers to use Forstbyte for a Third person RPG like Mass effect when there were no tools made for such a game in the engine at the time. Specifically for animation. SO the new team that was made up of new animators, hardly any senior staff were flying dark, and people like Casey Hudson were hardly if at all involved.
Even the game he was involved with was half baked which was ANthem. And that falls to them showing the game before it was even a game, what we saw was literally a curated vertical slice. Not even a game.
Same thing happened to Cyberpunk. And as reports came out we found out issues stemmed from higher up meddling and poor project oversight management.
SlimySnake
is just dead wrong in his assessment. Yes he's right we are seeing a lot of sequels, but we saw sequels and similar titles past gen. And he's omitting most of these started late last gen. From Software also made Seikiro which plays different and is a totally different experience from Elden Ring.If you want super fresh new concepts your going to have to wait till later this gen after these titles that started late last gen get done releasing. But to say nothing New is coming is literally the meaning of Reaching.
Sony, Nintendo have funded/partnered with a lot of new IP's from smaller studios that now are making even more. Astrail Chain was unique, so was Kena, Sifu, coming soon Stray, Little devil inside are all partnered games. And to say this current gen sucks, its like he;s living in alternate reality.
Look at the quality we are getting with these releases? Games are better now than they have ever been. It's companies like Ubisoft, EA, to an extent Activision that are having issues. All the while smaller studios are pumping out classics like Tunic, Death's Door, Spirit Farrer.
Don't let misfortune from studios/Publishers who don't how to manage projects paint a picture that the whole industry is shit right now. Thats what
SlimySnake
and the likes are trying to do.And honestly they are fucking just wrong.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Wow it's unfair to put that much pressure on a studio that hasn't released a game together yet, MS is definitely part of the blame
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Hezekiah
Banned
So 50% of staff at The Initiative didn't believe in the approach they're taking with Crystal Dynamics.
kingfey
Banned
Its an independent ego. You dont want another group taking part of your project.
Hezekiah
Banned
Not helped by branding them a AAAA rival to Naughty Dog.
It's like a young footballer where the manager says he's the next Messi or Ronaldo and he's yet to achieve anything at all.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Or writing on the wall.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
From what people considered back then, TI was something akin to Mistwalker but with a large team, the studio would be in charge of design and lead development, while another studio would be hired to provide labour and some additional help from key staff if needed. With the exits, the CD key staff now become even more necessary.
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kingfey
Banned
Its an ego thing. It's happens in the work force alot.
In my job, we didn't like when 2nd shift were added to our shift. Since that meant competition for us.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
50% is not just an "ego" thing.
They supposedly knew the scenario going in, one co-studio is out and another is in. There is definitely some issues going on outside of just "ego."
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kingfey
Banned
Its an ego thing.
You dont make a fuss about other groups joining the project, unless you are over protective about your job.
Half of them let go of their ego to work with CD, while the other didn't.
While the other half got full of themselves, because of the talents in the room.
That is what happens, when you collect high talented people, with no one to lead.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Everything in life can be boiled down to ego, it's rather reductive, innit.
ResilientBanana
Member
Personally, I feel like help should have been in-house not contracted. People from Naughty Dog and Insomniac see the benefits of a more curated experience, so this is unfortunate news. Sure, getting a game done early is one thing, but having a team that you work with everyday creates a good dynamic for most studios.
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abacab driver
Banned
If we were updated about every devs hires and fires in real time, we'd think everything was in development hell.
kingfey
Banned
The initiative is like PSG football team. All world class, with full divas.
These problems were bound to happen. It's impossible to controll a room, full of big shots and talents.
Riky
$MSFT
Naughty Dog used over 2000 people for TLOU2.
ResilientBanana
Member
They also juiced every ounce of power of the PS4. What's you're point?
Riky
$MSFT
You say help should be "in house" then use an example of a game that had over 1500 contractors.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I think the point was the extensive outsourcing big projects like TLoU 2 or Red Dead 2 had.
If you think that game was completely developed in-house at ND Studio, you're mistaken.
kingfey
Banned
That is not the example to use. Tlou2 had assets ready, unlike PD.
Also, Naughty Dog had established studio, and people who are familiar with their engine.
The Initiative doesn't have. They are working on a brand office, on UE, and New assets.
That is a tough challenge for a new studio.
Dr Bass
Member
Where in the heck did you come up with that conclusion? You pulled that out of your ass. Frankly this entire post is so absurd I'm not even sure how to address it. I think you entirely missed the point in regards to MS and Starfield and the comparisons. Like entirely.
Anyway ...
So does anyone objectively reading this thread find it odd that you have one group of people saying ...
"Lots of all star talent leaving. More than half the team. Sounds like there could be trouble in this game's development. Wonder what's actually happening?"
And then the other half saying ...
"No! This is fantastic. All of the ego driven people are now out, and Crystal Dynamics, the best game studio to ever exist, that Microsoft should also purchase, is perfect for making this game. We are now going to get a better game than ever, and sooner! Anyone who says otherwise is a console warrior fanboy."
I mean that's how it feels to me. I'm sitting here, Xbox controller in hand, thinking "wtf just happened here." The insistence from the core dedicated here to not allow a single negative interpretation of anything related to Xbox is beyond anything I've personally seen on a forum before and it's mind boggling. Might be time to consider another short break from the ol' GAF.
Edit: Like clockwork, got the "laugh" response from Riky. You just keep doing your thing man.
Just for the record, I don't block anyone, I don't ever report posts, and I don't ever use the "laugh" emoji to indicate laughing at a post. I only use it when one of our fine fellow NeoGAFers makes a great joke. If clowns want to engage like that, be my guest, but the way to actually man up and have a discussion is to just respond with reason and data. And like I've always said, if you like something (like Xbox for example) you should actually hold it to a standard, not defend everything the group does.
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Riky
$MSFT
I think most people will wait to see the actual game, if it releases Fall 2024 and is a 90+ game then obviously some good calls were made, if its 2026 and works out a 60% MC then the process can be pulled apart.
Since we haven't seen a single gameplay screenshot it's far to early to pass judgement.
Since we haven't seen a single gameplay screenshot it's far to early to pass judgement.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I swear many video game jounalist and podcasters are missing the boat when it comes to this one question.....
How will MS manage all 7,000 studios going forward, considering they will need to feed GamePass constantly.
Dr Bass
Member
Of course this is true, but this doesn't match your earlier rhetoric. Also scores are pretty meaningless in terms of "90+". I mean, what is an 89 vs a 90? Especially given the current reviewer climate.
But you will never know what the alternative game was that was the vision of the original team that was lauded and praised up and down before they started leaving ... at which point the faithful are casting out those same people. So you can't really say if the "right choice" was made. You can only evaluate if a good game came out of a team.
And again, all I've ever said is that people leaving en masse, is generally a bad sign of a work environment. Which it is. So we basically have confirmation that there are issues inside the development of this game. That's it. We don't know how the game is going to turn out, and yes, we can wait and see. That is all reasonable and good.
But that is not what is being said by a group of people in this thread. It's become nearly impossible to just have a discussion on this board. And if that's the case, what's the point? I'd rather just enjoy my stuff. You know, everything, because I have PS, Xbox, and Switch. Because I'm not a toolshed that picks a side and digs in his heels and I like all of it.
Dr Bass
Member
Yep, makes total sense. Giving Phil a new title of "CEO of MS Gaming"? Since he managed Rare so well. It's a legit question.
It's going to be so interesting to see where this has all landed in five years.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Bro, dial back on that ego™ just a tad.
kingfey
Banned
Rare doesn't want to do their own IPs. Or else, they would have done new banjo, Conker, and PD.
Riky
$MSFT
It's not certain that there are two visions of the game at all, I haven't seen anybody saying that.
What's seems to be the case is the process of getting to the vision has caused the split in the studio.
The studio was formed in a no crunch, democratic and high profile way. Recruitment of talented people with this vision who have shipped huge games, now that seems to have worked fine for a few years but eventually they had to decide how to ramp up production and have a pipeline to actually deliver the game.
Some people it seems wanted to grow the studio organically which would take a long time especially in this climate and some thought it better with the connection to Crystal Dynamics and their availability to move to a more conventional pipeline.
The people who didn't like the result have left, the reports are the people that are still there are happy and the game is moving forward.
We all like the sound of the no crunch, democratic working environment but as a massive Perfect Dark fan I ultimately only care about the result.
As long as they deliver something that lives up to the franchise standing and that for me has to be an FPS with a top quality single and multiplayer component then the process doesn't matter.
anothertech
Member
Still stings, that one
Scalebound, starwars, avengers, fable, and black tusk project too. I was like Fuck
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