Support NeoGAF

[down 2 orth]

So most of us on GAF seem to know this is happening, even if it isn’t often discussed. It’s to what extent and for what purpose our personal information is being collected that seems to be uncertain, especially since the process itself is almost entirely opaque. Some of the only clues available to guess at what is happening to the information collected during your game experience for the most part can only be gathered from reading those massive terms of agreements that require a fairly decent grasp of legalese to understand, not to mention a tremendous amount of time and patience. Nevertheless, I think there’s one, if not many, conversations to be had here.

First and foremost, I would like to know what information is being taken from companies when you play games. It goes without saying that marketing information for internal use is of primary importance to most software companies. I’ll go out on a limb and say that’s probably fine for most of us. It’s when most companies sell this information to third parties that I personally start to feel uncomfortable. I would like to know what kind of personal information are they selling, and to who are they selling it to?

It would also be interesting to know where the biggest companies in gaming stand on this issue. I’m thinking about Sony in particular, because we already know where Microsoft stands (after being unwillingly disclosed as a founding participant of the PRISM program, as well as their attempt at an always-online console.) I would like to think that Sony is more responsible with our data after watching how destructive Microsoft’s missteps have been, and especially after their not so distant history of security issues. However when high-ranked executives in the company start publicly asking gamers to use their real names in Playstation profiles, I can’t help but wonder.

As for Steam, while I’ve never used it before, I think that their statement that personally identifiable information will be restricted to internal company use seems a lot more reassuring. And while very little information is secure this day in age, their policy is at least a step up in comparison to other companies.

For me it’s most aggravating when data mining is the direct price to pay to enjoy a certain feature or segment of a game, as for instance in Destiny, when you need to log into a website account or phone app to access to the game’s lore and backstory, or in Dragon Age: Inquisition when you need to create an Origin account just to be able to align the choices of past Dragon Age games with the events in your new game. This to me crosses the line, because features that should be included in the game are deliberately not included for the benefit of the company and are done so at the expense of the customer’s time, convenience, and privacy.

And just how extreme can this practice become, if it hasn’t become a massive monetization tool already? When I’m playing Mass Effect 3 and Garrus starts asking me strange political questions out of the blue, are my answers going to be recorded or ignored by EA? As far as I know, it wouldn’t be illegal to keep such information, and from a historical and contemporary perspective, that type of information has been of great value to many a company and government organ. It would be naive to dismiss what is easy to mistake for trivial information in our video gaming experience as useless or unprofitable.

Let’s hear what you think.

 

[Deft Beck]

I would like a way to give more of my valuable information than is currently needed to massive corporations.

Really, though, I don't think about it too much. I think that as long as it's not too intrusive, it's not a big deal to me.

When I’m playing Mass Effect 3 and Garrus starts asking me strange political questions out of the blue, are my answers going to be recorded or ignored by EA? As far as I know, it wouldn’t be illegal to keep such information, and from a historical and contemporary perspective, that type of information has been of great value to many a company and government organ.

This would not only be awful sci-fi writing, but also a waste of every snooping party's time.

 

[STEaMkb]

However when high-ranked executives in the company start publicly asking gamers to use their real names in Playstation profiles, I can’t help but wonder.

Can you show us where Sony (or Microsoft) have asked gamers to use their real names? Because I can't ever remember that happening.

 

[down 2 orth]

Can you show us where Sony (or Microsoft) have asked gamers to use their real names? Because I can't ever remember that happening.

http://thediplomat.com/2013/09/sony-to-indie-developers-real-name-registration-for-ps4-accounts/

There's also the "Request Real Name" button which is the default button that is selected when you click on someone's profile.

 

[STEaMkb]

So they provided real names as an option, but they are not forcing people to switch, or even asking people do so.

They way you worded your post, you made it sound as though Sony were not only requesting users to use their real names, but they had ulterior motive for doing so.

 

[down 2 orth]

So they provided real names as an option, but they are not forcing people to switch, or even asking people do so.

They way you worded your post, you made it sound as though Sony were not only requesting users to use their real names, but they had ulterior motive for doing so.

Yeah, they're asking people to do it in that article I linked. And I am suggesting an ulterior motive for them to do so, as it relates to everything else I wrote.

 

[lazygecko]

This is already happening on a wide scale in the mobile market, isn't it? And whatever kind of monetization strategies that are popular on mobile is inevitably going to bleed over elsewhere.

 

[TheFurizzlyBear]

Yeah, they're asking people to do it in that article I linked. And I am suggesting an ulterior motive for them to do so, as it relates to everything else I wrote.

I think the ulterior motive is to remove some of the anonymity of the service. I bet there are some stats that show people willing to share their name are less shitty online. Just a guess tho

 

[Tecnniqe]

Well people already give the information away from free with social media so im not worried about games doing it. Kinda expecting it.

But hey, if it actually makes games more tailored to me im not sure im against it on a small scale.

 

[jack....]

Oculus Home is one of the worst examples of this that I've come across.

Once it's installed your PC has a 24/7 connection open to Facebook, even when Home isn't running.

 

[Aureon]

I have zero qualms about aggregate \ anonymized data.
Information that can identify you can be a little bit more tricky, but in games it's mostly OK unless they're doing something like monitoring voice comms \ chat and storing it all without anonymization.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I feel that Always online games are massive step in collecting personal data as are compainion apps and publisher accounts. i dont personally feel comfortable in the way im playing my game, for how long and what tools ingame i use are being tracked

 

[down 2 orth]

This is already happening on a wide scale in the mobile market, isn't it? And whatever kind of monetization strategies that are popular on mobile is inevitably going to bleed over elsewhere.

While I would say it's unethical even in the free to play market, it seems especially unethical that your information is being monetized when you are already paying a big chunk of money to play a game.

 

[hymanator]

It would be an interesting concept for a horror game. Have a virtual stalker in the game that knows everything about you.

 

[Cuv8]

They gather a lot of meta data :

- When do you play ?
- At what point of the game do you quit ?
- How long you play ?
- How often do you play ?
- How long does it take you to play a particular mission ?
- What path do you take to reach your objective (heat maps).
- How often do you push a button in particular ?

All the data are anonymous for now but big companies would love to know your personnal biography to refine how they treat your data.

It's happening on mobile and HD games (consoles and pc).

 

[lazygecko]

While I would say it's unethical even in the free to play market, it seems especially unethical that your information is being monetized when you are already paying a big chunk of money to play a game.

That certainly isn't stopping companies from adopting F2P microtransaction models into full price retail games. There is no such thing as "enough" when it comes to profits.

 

[Walpurgis]

I think the ulterior motive is to remove some of the anonymity of the service. I bet there are some stats that show people willing to share their name are less shitty online. Just a guess tho

I don't know... Facebook comments aren't any better than YouTube comments.

 

[Ade]

http://thediplomat.com/2013/09/sony-to-indie-developers-real-name-registration-for-ps4-accounts/

There's also the "Request Real Name" button which is the default button that is selected when you click on someone's profile.

Tbh if you're of the tin foil hat persuasion, giving your real name on XBL is irrelevant. Pretty certain that between purchasing the device and connecting it to an isp and using the store on it THEY can work out who you are.

As for Steam and its 'better' policy that's an aside as every game brings its own policy

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I'm more concerned with what they do with the data, but since The Dark Ages of Gen 7 ended, you no longer have completion percentages being misconstrued as marching orders pushing games to be banal intelligence-insult software, so I'm less on edge about it. At one time, very few knew what to DO with all that data they dove into.

Note Volgarr the Viking does not do any metrics gathering.

I think the ulterior motive is to remove some of the anonymity of the service. I bet there are some stats that show people willing to share their name are less shitty online. Just a guess tho

These have to be posts from 6 years ago, or a meme. There is no way this could be seriously believed in this day and age.

 

[down 2 orth]

They gather a lot of meta data :

- When do you play ?
- At what point of the game do you quit ?
- How long you play ?
- How often do you play ?
- How long does it take you to play a particular mission ?
- What path do you take to reach your objective (heat maps).
- How often do you push a button in particular ?

All the data are anonymous for now but big companies would love to know your personnal biography to refine how they treat your data.

It's happening on mobile and HD games (consoles and pc).

How can you be sure that most companies keep this data anonymous? Nearly all the ToS I've read for games openly state that personal information collected can go to third parties.

 

[Cuv8]

They may have your name and some info about you but they can't really exploit it. What's important is not your name or your adress, it's how you act in the game and outside of the game.

 

[down 2 orth]

Tbh if you're of the tin foil hat persuasion, giving your real name on XBL is irrelevant. Pretty certain that between purchasing the device and connecting it to an isp and using the store on it THEY can work out who you are.

As for Steam and its 'better' policy that's an aside as every game brings its own policy

Good points, but let's not throw out the tinfoil hat insults just yet, since it only serves to stem critical thought in what is up to this point a fairly civil discussion.

 

[N-Forced]

I feel sorry for Joe Blow that lives at 123 fake st with the email thisisfake@fake.com, all those valuable third party offers meant for me keep going to him.

 

[Ade]

Good points, but let's not throw out the tinfoil hat insults just yet, since it only serves to stem critical thought in what is up to this point a fairly civil discussion.

Wasn't meant as an insult in any way.

My point is purely that if they want to track you and such they can do so with little need to ask you for information.

Between hardware IDs, payment methods, ISP details, geolocation data and such they can easily work out who and where you are and if so desired cross relate that with other data.

I used to work on a project that looked at what we could 'assume' about people based on their bank transactions and what you could further extrapolate if you had the data from the companies those transactions were with.

It's like that whole research paper based around PC fingerprints. You can disable cookies Java et al, but based on location, browser and other standard things they can identify you 99% of the time

 

[Trilobit]

This incredible collection of personal info that is happening everywhere is actually breathtaking. One of the major reasons I don't want to switch to Windows 10.

 

[Melchiah]

http://thediplomat.com/2013/09/sony-to-indie-developers-real-name-registration-for-ps4-accounts/

There's also the "Request Real Name" button which is the default button that is selected when you click on someone's profile.

That's assuming your FB name is your real name.

 

[down 2 orth]

Wasn't meant as an insult in any way.

My point is purely that if they want to track you and such they can do so with little need to ask you for information.

Between hardware IDs, payment methods, ISP details, geolocation data and such they can easily work out who and where you are and if so desired cross relate that with other data.

I used to work on a project that looked at what we could 'assume' about people based on their bank transactions and what you could further extrapolate if you had the data from the companies those transactions were with.

It's like that whole research paper based around PC fingerprints. You can disable cookies Java et al, but based on location, browser and other standard things they can identify you 99% of the time

Games are unique though, because more than identify who you are or where you live, games can determine how you think, what you believe, and how you react to external influence. I'm hard pressed to think of anything else that can collect information in such a way, as even Facebook has it's own limitations.

 

[Ade]

Games are unique though, because more than identify who you are or where you live, games can determine how you think, what you believe, and how you react to external influence. I'm hard pressed to think of anything else that can collect information in such a way, as even Facebook has it's own limitations.

Your bank account, your phone bill, your forum posts, your social media accounts, your smart tv, your Netflix account, any loyalty cards, browsing data

You just have to think deeper about what can be derived from how you react to stuff. All of the things I just listed can be used to do all the things you say games are special because of.

You'd be amazed at quite what can be learned by how long someone's mouse hovers over an area of a webpage.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Google collects far more data about you than games could ever. Facebook as well. And all the other things people listed above. Your data is so exposed in other places that games can only access a small sector of that.

And even then, the amount of data collected from Google and Facebook are far more important and relevant than games. It's not only much, much faster, but it's also more useful.

I remember an article by Kotaku where they were frightened at the prospect of what kind of data Nintendo was getting people from its Miitomo app. The thing is, that app's data set is full of penis jokes, dumb answers, and useless information due to the way it's constructed.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Games are unique though, because more than identify who you are or where you live, games can determine how you think, what you believe, and how you react to external influence. I'm hard pressed to think of anything else that can collect information in such a way, as even Facebook has it's own limitations.

Just no. There is no way your actions in a video game say more about you than your social media accounts. You could probably learn more about somebody by what they type on GAF than how they play a game.

 

[down 2 orth]

Your bank account, your phone bill, your forum posts, your social media accounts, your smart tv, your Netflix account, any loyalty cards, browsing data

You just have to think deeper about what can be derived from how you react to stuff. All of the things I just listed can be used to do all the things you say games are special because of.

You'd be amazed at quite what can be learned by how long someone's mouse hovers over an area of a webpage.

I don't doubt it at all. Of course when considering all of those, you wouldn't think of games as the ultimate source of data collection either. But games do open another window from your life to the outside world, and it's a lot less obvious that this is being done than say, when you are actively using your Facebook account. Games are just one of many avenues that can be used to get information, though I do think that a lot of unique information can only be gained from games, especially in regard to analyzing an individual's psychology.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Sony Computer Entertainment utilising big data for PS4 platform - anyone got a terms and conditions link to see what the privacy policy is regarding this?

Edit: I just remembered an in-depth look at all the big media box providers' privacy policies, linked below, some people might find it useful. Slightly concerning that Sony collects PS4 web browser history...

Your Privacy, Your Devices, and You

Sony PlayStation 4
Privacy policy date: September 28, 2015

What it collects: The on-screen privacy policy for the PlayStation 4 states that Sony collects device data, including your IP address, and gameplay information. If you make a PlayStation Network account, Sony also collects information about your Web browsing, content downloads, and other interactions.

How it uses the data: The PS4 on-screen privacy policy doesn’t specify whether Sony uses gameplay information and your IP address for anything other than delivering the service. The PlayStation Network policy says Sony can use the non-personally identifiable information it collects about you without reservation.

How it shares the data: The PS4 policy doesn’t state that the company shares any information it collects with third parties. The PlayStation Network privacy policy says it may share non-personally identifiable information with third parties that deliver advertising.

Your choices: Neither privacy policy states that you can opt out from having your usage information collected or shared.

Wirecutter’s review: Not much different from Microsoft’s policy. Sony’s terms of use for the PlayStation 4 include a binding-arbitration agreement, which means you can’t launch or join a class-action lawsuit if you have a dispute with the company.

Xbox One and Kinect (Microsoft)

Privacy policy date: October 2015

What it collects: Microsoft says it collects information on the games you play on the Xbox One. It doesn’t mention collecting your IP address, but your Xbox One does have a unique identifier. If you use the Xbox TV app, Microsoft will collect data about what you watch.

How it uses the data: Microsoft’s policy doesn’t specify how the company uses the information it collects when you use your Xbox One. It does say the company will not use the information it collects when you use the Kinect for marketing purposes.

How it shares the data: Microsoft’s policy says that third parties may receive information collected when people use the Kinect or Xbox One, but that they can’t use it for marketing or personalized advertising.

Your choices: Microsoft’s policy doesn’t specify whether you can disable or opt out of having your game and viewing data collected.

Wirecutter’s review: A fairly average amount of collection here. Microsoft’s general terms-of-service agreement includes a binding-arbitration clause, which means you can’t launch or join a class-action suit if you have a dispute with the company.

Contrast both with the winner, which should come as no surprise to most people:

Apple TV

Privacy policy date: February 3, 2015

What it collects: Apple’s general privacy policy says the company may collect some usage data, including search data, which it doesn’t associate with your IP address. The supplementary privacy policy for Apple TV says that the company collects only log data, not what you watch or search for.

How it uses the data: Apple’s general privacy policy says that it uses the information it collects to improve its services, including advertising. The Apple TV supplement says it uses log data to diagnose and record problems with your device.

How it shares the data: Apple’s privacy policy does not state whether the company shares usage information with third parties, for advertising or other purposes.

Your choices: Apple says it collects log data from your Apple TV only if you opt in.

Wirecutter’s review: This policy stands in stark contrast to all the others here. Apple collects next to nothing and anonymizes all of it.

 

[down 2 orth]

Just no. There is no way your actions in a video game say more about you than your social media accounts. You could probably learn more about somebody by what they type on GAF than how they play a game.

Romantic interests, political bias, general attitudes and behavior, repressed desires, and social associations are the first things that come to mind. I'm not saying that games are more effective at getting this information (though they might actually be, depending on the individual), I'm just saying that they are another way of getting that information.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Romantic interests, political bias, general attitudes and behavior, repressed desires, and social associations are the first things that come to mind. I'm not saying that games are more effective at getting this information (though they might actually be, depending on the individual), I'm just saying that they are another way of getting that information.

Yeah I get your point. I guess what I mean is games are too funneled to collect anything that meaningful. We don't have the freedom of thought and expression that we use elsewhere and can only give a largely meaningless A or B answer to most questions presented in the form of a game. They certainly are another way of getting information but their nature leaves it most useful to the devs to see what players liked or didn't. It could be used to probe deeper but it's of little use to the company to know your political interests unless they already have a buyer for that info, but even then it would require designing the game around that purpose too if they wanted useful data.

However I just don't see the companies being a priority to those who would want such information since they have much better avenues to acquire it already. Like you was saying about the PRISM program and Microsoft, Google etc being all in on it.

 

[down 2 orth]

Sony Computer Entertainment utilising big data for PS4 platform - anyone got a terms and conditions link to see what the privacy policy is regarding this?

Edit: I just remembered an in-depth look at all the big media box providers' privacy policies, linked below, some people might find it useful. Slightly concerning that Sony collects PS4 web browser history...

Your Privacy, Your Devices, and You





Contrast both with the winner, which should come as no surprise to most people:

That's an interesting read. It seems like legally, both Microsoft and Sony have covered themselves to take any information they want from you and sell it. And we have to agree to that, or we just can't use their systems.

Yeah I get your point. I guess what I mean is games are too funneled to collect anything that meaningful. We don't have the freedom of thought and expression that we use elsewhere and can only give a largely meaningless A or B answer to most questions presented in the form of a game. They certainly are another way of getting information but their nature leaves it most useful to the devs to see what players liked or didn't. It could be used to probe deeper but it's of little use to the company to know your political interests unless they already have a buyer for that info, but even then it would require designing the game around that purpose too if they wanted useful data.

However I just don't see the companies being a priority to those who would want such information since they have much better avenues to acquire it already. Like you was saying about the PRISM program and Microsoft, Google etc being all in on it.

Well, as was stated above by someone else, where there's a dollar to be made in gaming, companies always jump on it. But I do get what you mean about the information that is collected. On its own I don't think its accuracy is easy to determine (i.e. a man playing a woman character certainly does not mean he's a closet transvestite, nor does a kid shooting up a street in GTAV mean he's a potential mass murderer), however I do think that a lot of the information gathered has far more potential value when supplemented with information gathered from outside of the gamer's account.