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Polygon: Valve is not your friend, and Steam is not healthy for gaming
- Thread starter Guess Who
- Start date
I knew I'd get this tired response. I need a phone to work so I can actually earn money with which I contribute to as many good causes as I am able. Same with a PC. I buy clothes from the local hippie shop where the clothes are handmade or ethically sourced. We all make choices. Ultimately we have to function in the world so unfortunately I contribute to some companies I'd rather not. A fucking games company though? Yeah I think I can live my life fine without them.
GhostTrick
Banned
Which game companies do you deem worthy of your support then? One that isn't as evil as Valve seems to be in your eyes?
Especially since you seem concerned about working conditions.
No, its not meaningless at all and whilst it in isolation may be a drop in a vast bucket it's still an action which can add up over time and cause others to stop and think. Provoking thought should always be commended and I applaud the poster for actually adhering to their moral compass. If anyone was stroking their own ego I'd say it was your post, as you think you know more and have it all figured out... but given your tone and what the thread is actually about I think it's best to leave it like that.
Great article from Polygon again, their long form stuff is very good. Embarrassing first page or so from GAF. "LOLygon amirite?". No.
I play all kinds of games, from Spelunky to Resident Evil. I don't know what the working conditions at Capcom are. I make decisions based on the information available. Did any of you actually read the article? Valve is a company that did everything legally possible to argue that they shouldn't have to adhere to EU law that refunds are mandatory. I mean c'mon lads there are degrees of bad practice.
Raitosaito
Member
The weird thing is competition exist right now in the form of Origins, which in the customer service department is vastly better. But gamers are prone to brand royalty like any other consumer I guess.
Chairmanchuck
Member
So where can I easily refund digital articles as on Steam?
The article is stupid when you compare it to all other companies. Valve takes a 30% cut. So does MS and Sony (not sure about Nintendo).
The article kinda says "memes are bad.", so should I complain at E3 that there are countless Kaz Hirai memes?
The Origin comparison is dumb, because Valve sells their games on other plattforms (uPlay) and Origin as a client itself isnt as convenient and has as many features as Steam.
Its just that the customer service itself doesnt mean THAT much to the average consumer without a problem. Sure. Valves customer support is bad, but that doesnt matter when the plattform itself isnt attractive to the user.
Wowfunhappy
Member
I was actually surprised the article didn't go into this more.
In an age where most tech companies that sell you products directly such as Amazon and Apple go to great lengths to supply good support experiences, why is everyone generally okay with Valve's? Especially when storefronts like Origin are doing a much better job?
Can someone please explain what huge Steam features are missing from Origin, other than your existing library not being there? I actually find the client WAY more pleasant to use, with an interface that actually looks like it has been updated within the past decade. It's also responsive, launches quickly, and generally gets out of my way.
And Origin doesn't even allow refusing for the entire library. Just EA games.
So are you going to dump Origin?
What about the lack of automatic digital refunds on ALL three consoles manufacturers? MSi s JUST adding and exact copy of Steams into beta. So it's not even functional yet. And the other two don't have anything.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Most people arent okay with Valves customer service. Reddit, GAF and other forums talk about how bad it is...
chekhonte
Member
All the things that Polygon is saying about valve/steam apply totally and with out all the qualifications to every console ever made.
PC people seem to all be under the collective delusion that if pc isn't a free and open platform then it's a hostile hellscape bent on ripping off people.
PC people seem to all be under the collective delusion that if pc isn't a free and open platform then it's a hostile hellscape bent on ripping off people.
Raylan Targaryen
Member
No one is okay with Valve CS. It's a joke and everyone knows it is.
What are customers supposed to do though? Boycotting Steam isn't really an option because whether you're into AAA gaming or indies, your selection is severely limited outside of Steam.
Wolf Dawgz
Member
If Valve were a true monopoly, we'd be screwed. The problem with analyzing them through that lens is that they aren't a monopoly. The video game industry, and even the PC part of it has lots of competition.
Games that would not be viable to release before, are now able to thanks to the Greenlight system. This isn't because Valve is a goodguy, but because Valve was able to see that consumers demanded those games.
While I do think that the "good guy valve" image is wrong, I don't think that it being wrong makes Steam a bad platform for gaming. It's nowhere near the monopolisitic force that the article makes it out to be.
Games that would not be viable to release before, are now able to thanks to the Greenlight system. This isn't because Valve is a goodguy, but because Valve was able to see that consumers demanded those games.
While I do think that the "good guy valve" image is wrong, I don't think that it being wrong makes Steam a bad platform for gaming. It's nowhere near the monopolisitic force that the article makes it out to be.
Valve is currently the only company that allows refunds of the whole catalog including DLC.
Which platform do you suggest i pick up instead?
As you say, there are degrees of bad practice.
Messofanego
Banned
Very well researched article, especially the court case with Judge Edelman. Valve acting like any big corporation in other countries trying to skirt past the local laws like in Australia until a judge decides to finally take them to task.
It is interesting to see people turn into corporate shills when Steam sales come around much like on Black Friday where people do free marketing for it. When developers decide to not have as many sales for their game, they're threatened with boycotts.
I do try my best to buy games from developers at places that give them the biggest cut, like Humble or Itch.io. Valve being vigorously against competition is a bad thing enough that they don't want to disclose their finances, and they deserve criticism for it.
It is interesting to see people turn into corporate shills when Steam sales come around much like on Black Friday where people do free marketing for it. When developers decide to not have as many sales for their game, they're threatened with boycotts.
We made memes about Mitt Romney saying corporations are also people, but we gamers fully think of Valve as a person. Not just that, we deify the CEO.
I do try my best to buy games from developers at places that give them the biggest cut, like Humble or Itch.io. Valve being vigorously against competition is a bad thing enough that they don't want to disclose their finances, and they deserve criticism for it.
Crimsonsky
Member
Well said. I'm of the same mind when the Nintendo loyalists come out in droves. You should be skeptical of anyone claiming to be your friend while offering you a product or asking you for money. That is true in all walks of life.
Everything community related, streaming, the controller API, Workshop support, being able to refund my whole library as opposed to just EA games, customisation of the storefront/library, streaming, a friendlist that actually works well, family sharing and other stuff i'm forgetting.
An i own 31 games on Origin. It's not like i boycott the platform.
Very well researched article, especially the court case with Judge Edelman. Valve acting like any big corporation in other countries trying to skirt past the local laws like in Australia until a judge decides to finally take them to task.
It is interesting to see people turn into corporate shills when Steam sales come around much like on Black Friday where people do free marketing for it. When developers decide to not have as many sales for their game, they're threatened with boycotts.
We made memes about Mitt Romney saying corporations are also people, but we gamers fully think of Valve as a person. Not just that, we deify the CEO.
I do try my best to buy games from developers at places that give them the biggest cut, like Humble or Itch.io. Valve being vigorously against competition is a bad thing enough that they don't want to disclose their finances, and they deserve criticism for it.
Well researched - applies Reddit and twitch memes as arguments. Doesn't actually know the workshop creator situation, or the crowdfunding Tournaments. AND pretends valves store cut is not the standard store cut of a sale.
Nope. More like some points that should be discussed separately buried under hyperbole and ignorance.
calavera_jo
Neo Member
linux support, more mac os games, early access, downloading client updates int he background instead of when the app launches, steamworks making it easy to send invites for online games
People pay way too much attention to dumb forum/reddit posts.
Revenue since the new sales paradigm and less discounts is up. The steam audience did not punish that.
A lot of the article is beef with social media instead of actually looking into numbers and facts.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I don't get it too, he even used the Gaben Jesus image with a serious face - while there are people who treat Gabe as some icon I'm pretty sure that image was meant to be a joke.
Unless that post was meant to be sarcastic.
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
The beautiful thing about capitalism is that it evolves to where companies either fail or are forced to adjust (hello, Yahoo). The fact of the matter remains that Steam is the best at doing what they do, and until someone challenges them in that right (by getting access to more games, or a viable alternative to Steam Workshop), they will continue to do what they want.
I disagree wholly with the premise that Steam is not healthy for gaming. Why? Take Steam away. Say the whole business burns to the ground, today. Gaben dies in the fire. What happens? How many indie titles are wiped away and how many will never be made because there won't be enough interest, capital, or ability to easily distribute and/or promote the title?
When a company gets to this point, it's because they've done their jobs SO WELL that the only thing to do is to figure out how to turn their money into MORE money. Why? So they can invest in new tech, new products, new people to expand the business model. That does not make them bad for the industry. People not buying games is bad for the industry. Indies not making games is bad for the industry.
If you don't like shady business practices, that's fine, but competition is usually what beats those out of the system. Buy games from other providers if you must. Uninstalling Steam? That won't do anything. It's barely a blip. Speak with your dollars.
You may eventually find some of these games creators opening their own storefronts. If they do, support them. Buy their games even if you have no interest in playing them.
I disagree wholly with the premise that Steam is not healthy for gaming. Why? Take Steam away. Say the whole business burns to the ground, today. Gaben dies in the fire. What happens? How many indie titles are wiped away and how many will never be made because there won't be enough interest, capital, or ability to easily distribute and/or promote the title?
When a company gets to this point, it's because they've done their jobs SO WELL that the only thing to do is to figure out how to turn their money into MORE money. Why? So they can invest in new tech, new products, new people to expand the business model. That does not make them bad for the industry. People not buying games is bad for the industry. Indies not making games is bad for the industry.
If you don't like shady business practices, that's fine, but competition is usually what beats those out of the system. Buy games from other providers if you must. Uninstalling Steam? That won't do anything. It's barely a blip. Speak with your dollars.
You may eventually find some of these games creators opening their own storefronts. If they do, support them. Buy their games even if you have no interest in playing them.
GhostTrick
Banned
I hope you don't own any consoles, cause good luck for that refunds stuff.
Very well researched article, especially the court case with Judge Edelman. Valve acting like any big corporation in other countries trying to skirt past the local laws like in Australia until a judge decides to finally take them to task.
It is interesting to see people turn into corporate shills when Steam sales come around much like on Black Friday where people do free marketing for it. When developers decide to not have as many sales for their game, they're threatened with boycotts.
We made memes about Mitt Romney saying corporations are also people, but we gamers fully think of Valve as a person. Not just that, we deify the CEO.
I do try my best to buy games from developers at places that give them the biggest cut, like Humble or Itch.io. Valve being vigorously against competition is a bad thing enough that they don't want to disclose their finances, and they deserve criticism for it.
If Valve was against competition as you say so, why would they allow devs to generate unlimited steam keys for no fees and sell them for 100% revenue ? Because that 30% cut (which is the norm. Heck, even Humble is at 25%) is only for the Steam store itself.
GhostTrick
Banned
double post
TheRedSnifit
Member
- Universal refunds, as opposed to only being able to get refunds on EA games. Origin refunds also are much more strict: You have to get a refund with 24 hours of launching the game, or within seven days of purchasing it.
- Better prices
- Download servers that aren't located in the furthest corners of Siberia
- Much more expansive library
- Built-in mod support
- Steam Controller support (you have to add Origin games to Steam to use the controller, which is an incredibly convoluted process because EA doesn't want you running games on Steam)
- Linux and Mac support
- Early Access
- Updates download in the background
- Vastly superior community features
- Big Picture Mode
Those are just the things I use on a regular basis.
The only people who use Origin are people who want to play EA games, and people who've deluded themselves into believing that propping up an inferior service is good for the industry.
Humble skims the same 30% off of each sale. Both it and itch.io likely would not be able to exist as they do without Steam letting devs generate keys.
TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
Nearly all consumer business is boiled down to one sentence: Find something people want, and provide that thing cheaply and easily.
Working scaling for high resolution displays. Every other client I use respects my scaling setting, including Steam, GOG Galaxy, and uPlay. The menus in Origin are way too small for me to see without getting right next to my TV. They've known about the issue for at least 5 years and still haven't fixed it.
I just don't get this. I had been a happy PC gamer even before Steam. It neither reduced piracy nor was PC gaming really dead. I don't even know where that notion comes from since there was never a shortage of big games on the platform. It's ridiculous.
rakkadakka
Member
Gabe Newell sends Sheever flowers so all their in court battles in the EU fighting Steam refunds are forgotten.
The more of these responses I read the more it feels like this article screwed the pooch with the title.
It's not about if they are 100% evil or good, and this is where the article gets it wrong, but rather if Valve sincerely deserves all the love it receives. The answer is almost always going to be no but people respond to the question as if a family member has been attacked.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Family Sharing too.
TheVoidDragon
Member
No, the article is entirely wrong. You should actually read the EU law about refunds before complaining. EU law does not say refunds are "mandatory". It says you have a "right to return" for any reason up to 14 days after you purchase something, provided it hasn't been used. It also says that if it's a digital item that you are going to be given right access to right away (and therefore under that law, can't return it because that's using it), you have to be told that you won't be able to do so.
What Valve did was exactly what the law said they had to do in that situation. So, how did Valve do "everything legally possible" to try to avoid adhering to that law?
CecilRousso
Member
I try to not read into the 30% cut being taken from devs, because they are getting quite a lot for that. When they provide things like the humble widget, sure, I'll go there. But considering what Steam has done for both the PC as viable market, and for tools to both developers and customers, I won't hesitate to buy directly from Steam.
The refund thing is really funny. Valve gets tons of shit for refunds when they are pretty much the only ones even offering them.
GOG does too (and GOG is awesome) and EA does for their own games.
That's it.
But Valve is the company evading responsibility concerning refunds?
Also everyone praising MS for just starting to bring out refunds that is an exact mirror of Steam Refunds.
minus being able to refund DLC.
And we'll see how it's implemented when it's actually out.
Oh right, there is that cavieat. And yes we need to see how it works in actual operation vs something that is just spoken about.
IncognitoPanda
Member
This is the most sensible sentiment, and how everyone should look at all companies, whether they provide fun for you or not.
zombieshavebrains
I have not used cocaine
And Valve has actively contributed to playing games on something that isn't Windows.
TheRedSnifit
Member
And both EA and Origin are more restrictive. Origin only lets you refund within 24 hours of launching the game (regardless of how much you actually pay), or seven days of purchasing it. GOG only lets you refund for technical issues (and requires you to do extensive troubleshooting with their tech support to prove before they'll cough up your money), and won't give you a refund if you're suffering performance issues because of your PC's specs or just don't like the game.
Steam lets you refund for whatever reason you want and ties it to actual time you've played the game. Even if you ask for a refund outside of the window they'll usually grant it if they don't see a trend of abuse.
Foldedpencil
Banned
Has anyone started calling it the "sweatshop" yet? This is kind of the issue. They can get away with this kind of crap because the content creators are not employees and many could write off the work as hobbies, but a 95% take is pretty crappy.
Kssio_Aug
Member
There's no such a thing as friendly company. If no one takes action to compete against them, they will just monopolize the market the way it fits them better (which basically means: the way it's more lucrative for them).
I like Steam, but I think it has tons of flaws too. But the same with Origin, Blizzard, Playstation, Xbox, Nintendo... I'm just glad I have other options when one of them them pisses me off.
In the other hand, in so many areas Steam is miles better than any other popular gaming company; I don't have issues to refund a game and it is, by far, the best platform I know when it comes to prices. Steam is one of the few platforms that respects different regions conditions with a more fair price in their library instead of direct dollar conversion, and the games there constantly goes on a good sale. But I hope we see a growth in GoG and other interesting PC platforms to compete closer against Valve.
I like Steam, but I think it has tons of flaws too. But the same with Origin, Blizzard, Playstation, Xbox, Nintendo... I'm just glad I have other options when one of them them pisses me off.
In the other hand, in so many areas Steam is miles better than any other popular gaming company; I don't have issues to refund a game and it is, by far, the best platform I know when it comes to prices. Steam is one of the few platforms that respects different regions conditions with a more fair price in their library instead of direct dollar conversion, and the games there constantly goes on a good sale. But I hope we see a growth in GoG and other interesting PC platforms to compete closer against Valve.
CertifiedFP
Member
GabeN has spoken out on this years ago - It's because he used to get a billion and one acquisition offers in his email a day when they were more open about these things. They keep shut about these things now to discourage the acquisition offers (Since he's always going to say "No" anyway.)
Agree. It's not a case of all or nothing, there's plenty of little things we can do in our everyday life.
I'm just a casual gamer so I don't have a lot of games on Steam and didn't know anything about all that bad stuff the article is compiling from over the years, so I found it really interesting. Just the corporate policy of "we don't have to respect your law and we don't have to pay taxes" says it all...
But for the reality we live in, I have to admit that almost any big transnational company does the same or worse: Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, ... they all route their sales profit to tax havens to avoid paying taxes on the countries where people buy their products. And you can find all sorts of cases of abuses and mistreatment of their employees too.
Regarding the Steam workshop. I've been in the 3D assets industry for over 15 years. The leader in the industry, Turbosquid, gets a 60% of each sale (DOUBLE of what we are complaining about Valve) and treat the assets creators like shit. They even go to extents as periodic buy-outs of the competence, dishonestly censoring their forums, meddling with local politicians to pass laws to get taxpayers money to fund their business, pouching best sellers from other marketplaces to go exclusive with them and even doing online marketing campaigns impersonating their competitors to misguide users into their shop... so I guess Valve isn't that bad in that regard either.
Foldedpencil
Banned
Many problems are too big to feel your own impact on them, but that does not diminish your responsibility to measure the morality of your decisions. And just because many are not willing to forgo the benefits of exploitation with regards to clothing and technology does not invalidate efforts to curtail exploitation in other areas. Its like saying, the earth is over populated, but if your not willing to kill yourself to fix it, then any other efforts you make are meaningless. In reality, killing yourself is probably not be the most effective option to address the problem.
At the very least boycotting Valve over what the poster was talking about means also boycotting all consoles manufacturers.
It would be the height of hypocrisy to switch to plateforms that do the same exact things being boycotted within the same exact industry.
prag16
Banned
whynotboth.gif
My main "complaint" is people SO hardcore on steam that they will bypass games they otherwise would have high interest in strictly because they're not available on steam. That's bonkers, and is a bad thing for PC gaming if enough people have such a mentality.