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PS3 games list & SPE usages

spwolf

Member
i hate bees said:
Errr, I don't know what you think you know about Cell and Larrabee, but they're very, very different beasts.

they are, but at the same time they both require programming on similar level - ie building game engines that are heavily multithreaded and not just throwing everyting on GPU.

Cell is much simpler since it was built for purpose, while larabee will be more general purpose that can be taken advantage off in different non graphical tasks as well.
 

filopilo

Member
Zyzyxxz said:
why do you guys care how many SPE's games use for the PS3?

This can't be presented like that. all SPEs are allways in use ,the coding model hightly advises that.Sends jobs to all ,they'll take it when ready.

It's % of use that's tells something.It vastly varies at different times .Idle time is room for improvement.
 
Game programming is a funny beast among the computer sciences.

Some of the core precepts focus so intently how to churn through data as efficiently as possible that the best design is a simplistic raw one which focuses mostly on data and its manipulation.

Other disciplines (meaning almost everyone else except maybe embedded programmers) require you to focus on modeling the code using an idealized design which gives up performance to boost code maintainability.

Just the other day I was writing code to handle how people were registering and logging in. The amount of branches which were occurring due to oddball use cases (like someone logging in twice or logging out in the middle of logging in etc etc) made the codebase difficult to read for other people.

In the end, I created a virtual login machine which handled login in an ideal manner and delegated all work to the virtual machine.

This could never happen in game programming as it is not a performance enhancement, and simply makes it easier for other coders to be able to debug or modify the codebase.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
[continue_derail]

I'd like to clarify some of what was posted here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13948384&postcount=1381


First off, the DVD scaling mech is totally different than what is used in games … so its performance has no bearing on the comparison between 360 and PS3 game scaling.


Secondly, I’d also like to clarify that my comments regarding the PS3’s ‘scaling’ was in reference to the overall DVD playback package … which includes de-interlacing. That is where the PS3 most notably falls behind the better DVD/BD standalones and video processors. I wasn’t talking about the DVD scaling performance by itself (since we don’t stare at non-moving test patters).

That said (for those who care), I will run some test patterns … probably over Christmas … to test the scaling performance between of few different solutions (including PS3, Reon, DVDO, etc) … as well as their deinterlacing performance. The PS3’s recent firmware upgrade did change its DVD playback, and I do have a new video processor … so might as well do some comparisons.

I’ll post the results.

[/continue_derail]
 
1up Burnout Paradise preview:

One reason for that mind-set: This is Criterion's first time around with the new system, and the team doesn't want to make incorrect assumptions about its capabilities. Alex Fry, the game's technical director, explains: "The first thing you have to do when you get new hardware is learn it. Beating it into submission doesn't make sense; you have to work with it." By the team's estimate, just one of the machine's seven synergistic processing elements (SPEs) has more power in it than the entire emotion engine of the PS2.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=0&cId=3156451
 

SamBa

Banned
Lovely thread. Missed this one. Full PS3 power revealed soon!

In a recent interview with Gamereactor.se, Naughty Dog producer Evan Wells boasted that with the new improvements to the Naughty Dog Engine 2, “[Uncharted 2] will have the prettiest snow you’ve ever seen in a game!”

“After we shipped Uncharted: Drake’s Fortune we gave our programmers some time to freely explore any aspect of our engine or the hardware that they were interested in,” Wells revealed. “We’ve been able to squeeze out a lot more of the power out of the PLAYSTAYTION(R)3, by optimizing our SPU code and parceling out more jobs to the SPUs in general.”

“With Uncharted 2 and the Naughty Dog Engine 2 we can do much more, do it better and do it faster,” said Wells. “For example, we can see more polygons on screen, which allows us to create areas with even more detail than in the previous game.”

“In addition, we save no effort when it comes to the rendering of snow in Uncharted 2. It should be a banner to me to be the prettiest snow you have ever seen in a game!”
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
This thread would have had a field day with audio from the Develop coding keynote..was packed with stuff about in particular rendering techniques on Cell..from pre-processing to post-processing to lighting and shadowing etc. Which is pretty cool to hear about. It sounds like devs are getting more interesting in putting Cell to work on graphics beyond what rsx can do individually..indeed, it was even said by sony there 'RSX is ageing, use Cell to keep up'.

Unfortunately vg247 still hasn't uploaded audio from the keynote, last I checked..
 

SamBa

Banned
Also interesting.

"Digital Foundry Reports: If there is one thing that is beyond doubt, it’s that the raw computational power of the PlayStation 3’s Cell CPU is something quite special. The architecture of the chip is somewhat unique – featuring a conventional PowerPC CPU core surrounded by eight ultra-fast satellite sub-processors (though one is disabled), each capable of some pretty phenomenal number-crunching. Just one of these SPUs can decode 300 MP3 files simultaneously in real time."

http://www.smgamers.com/?p=610

"Fixstars, Broadcast International launch H.264 Encoder for PS3: Press Release 1 July 2009
Jul 1st, 14:42 UTC

The CodecSys CE-10 takes advantage of the readily available, inexpensive Sony PS3 for its processing engine, making it the most accessible, near real-time product in the HD encoding realm.

Affordable, Broadcast Quality, Near Real-Time H.264 Encoder for Sony PS3

LOVELAND, COLORADO, 1 July 2009 - Fixstars and Broadcast International today announce the immediate availability of CodecSys CE-10 series, a near real-time, broadcast quality H.264 encoder which runs on the Sony PLAYSTATION® 3 platform. The CodecSys CE-10 takes advantage of the readily available, inexpensive Sony PS3 for its processing engine, making it the most accessible, near real-time product in the HD encoding realm."

http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/11492.html
 

Forsete

Gold Member
KeioSquad2 said:
That's the thing man, is the cell just good for magic tricks or can it help with things like better textures and more poly's as well?

What do you think Uncharted, Killzone and other games are using it for?
 
KeioSquad2 said:
That's the thing man, is the cell just good for magic tricks or can it help with things like better textures and more poly's as well?

in PS3 use it has been used for a lot more than what a conventional CPU's do, as far as i'm aware the general idea is to offload any possible GPU functions to the Cell and it's SPE's to giving it more headroom for other tasks.

in Killzone 2 for example i think Cell was used for preculling of data, particle systems and lighting which is pretty impressive
 

SamBa

Banned
For textures bluray is probably a bigger advantage unless using processing intensive procedural generated textures. Didn't the mirror's edge developers claim much higher texture resolution on the ps3 because of the cell? But good quality procedural generated texture are a lot harder to fabricate.
 

RavenFox

Banned
MrJollyLivesNextDoor said:
in PS3 use it has been used for a lot more than what a conventional CPU's do, as far as i'm aware the general idea is to offload any possible GPU functions to the Cell and it's SPE's to giving it more headroom for other tasks.

in Killzone 2 for example i think Cell was used for preculling of data, particle systems and lighting which is pretty impressive
Yeah, the amount of lights in KZ2 is very impressive.
 

Erebus

Member
SamBa said:
For textures bluray is probably a bigger advantage unless using processing intensive procedural generated textures. Didn't the mirror's edge developers claim much higher texture resolution on the ps3 because of the cell? But good quality procedural generated texture are a lot harder to fabricate.

Not sure about the textures resolution but DICE obviously had some serious trouble applying any kind of AA on the PS3 version.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk or fanboy of some sort (mind you, I'm a PS3 owner) but I think that all these number-crunching capabilities of Cell that come up every now and then are highly irrelevant to my gaming needs. Why should I care if Cell can decode 1600 MP3 files at the same time when most developers struggle to apply any decent AA method on their games?
 

RavenFox

Banned
DarkUSS said:
Not sure about the textures resolution but DICE obviously had some serious trouble applying any kind of AA on the PS3 version.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk or fanboy of some sort (mind you, I'm a PS3 owner) but I think that all these number-crunching capabilities of Cell that come up every now and then are highly irrelevant to my gaming needs. Why should I care if Cell can decode 1600 MP3 files at the same time when most developers struggle to apply any decent AA method on their games?
Uhmm start on PS3 first then transfer your engine to the other? Also the struggle is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
 

DMeisterJ

Banned
Second necro-bump today.

Anywway, I do believe Evan Wells is right in saying that Uncharted 2 will have the prettiest snow ever in a game. It looked fantastic in the GTTV footage.
 

A.R.K

Member
DarkUSS said:
Not sure about the textures resolution but DICE obviously had some serious trouble applying any kind of AA on the PS3 version.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk or fanboy of some sort (mind you, I'm a PS3 owner) but I think that all these number-crunching capabilities of Cell that come up every now and then are highly irrelevant to my gaming needs. Why should I care if Cell can decode 1600 MP3 files at the same time when lazy developers struggle to apply any decent AA method on their games?

fixed :)
 
Draft said:
Worked for Ghostbusters.

Is that a good example of competent cross platform development ? I think not.

Id's Rage will make Dice and other two bit 3d engine developers out for what they are, hacks. :D
 
Forsete said:
What do you think Uncharted, Killzone and other games are using it for?

For the side show, not the main attraction. What I mean is, I know that the cell reduces gpu load by preculling geometry and handling physics, particles, ai, lighting, and all that good stuff.

The thing is, not one single game on the PS3 comes close to, lets say, what an 8800 gtx could do because of the added processing by the cell. Take a look at the particles for instance, what good is having so many drawn on screen if they can't devote a decent amount of ram for them to display in a decent resolution? I know that 800 polys in the hands of an expert can be faked into looking like 5000, but what happens when they can't even get the gpu to agree to display the 800 with out dropping frames?

Killzone 2 has the spu's do a substantial amount of work, but the one thing they couldn't do is keep the framerate locked at 30 fps. It dropped massively at some points. I guess I wouldn't be so disappointed with all the talk these devs dish out about how much power they have, when all we get is screen tearing slideshows of jagged edges. Maybe if they stopped trying to overflow the glass with water and started trying to make a drink out of it we'd finally get somewhere.......

Sorry for the rant......
 

Erebus

Member
RavenFox said:
Uhmm start on PS3 first then transfer your engine to the other? Also the struggle is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
If I recall correctly DICE started Mirror's Edge development on PS3 first, yet I believe the 360 version was better from a technical perspective.

I agree that PS3 ports aren't as bad as they used to be anymore. But still reading all these articles about the phenomenal power of Cell and on the other hand having some not-so-lazy developers struggle is a bit contradictory imho.
 
DarkUSS said:
If I recall correctly DICE started Mirror's Edge development on PS3 first, yet I believe the 360 version was better from a technical perspective.

I agree that PS3 ports aren't as bad as they used to be anymore. But still reading all these articles about the phenomenal power of Cell and on the other hand having some not-so-lazy developers struggle is a bit contradictory imho.
Read the interview with Yoshida that was posted earlier today. It comes down to time and budget and which platform the companies want to be "in the spotlight". It's difficult enough working on 360 and PS3 since they differ so greatly, wanting both to be perfect in looks is a dream I believe.

Have any two platforms ever had identical looking titles?
 
DarkUSS said:
If I recall correctly DICE started Mirror's Edge development on PS3 first, yet I believe the 360 version was better from a technical perspective.

I agree that PS3 ports aren't as bad as they used to be anymore. But still reading all these articles about the phenomenal power of Cell and on the other hand having some not-so-lazy developers struggle is a bit contradictory imho.

Yea, but instead of building the game from the ground up for the ps3, they chose to build on UE3, which we know is still crap on ps3, basically because its an outdated piece of crap engine that wasn't made for multiprocessing.
 

SamBa

Banned
GS: What's it been like working on the PlayStation 3 for the first time?

BF: For us, the most exciting part of the PS3 has been the cell processor, the SPUs specifically.In our highest density scenes right now, we are currently using about 30 percent of the SPUs' capabilities--with the SPUs doing lots of heavy lifting for us on rendering, visibility, particle systems, skinning, animation blending, and so on...this with scores of pedestrians, cars, fires, etc., all going on. And the best part? We've not made any significant attempts to even optimize the SPU code. I think it's reasonable to guess we could put 10 times as much stuff on the SPUs and still make our frame budgets. It's really pretty amazing.

Full interview.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/infamous/news.html?sid=6175383
 

Persona7

Banned
CrushDance said:
Oh come on Draft, there's no need for that. Wasn't RE5 a good example? Anyway lets try and keep it clean.
I don't see how RE5 can be a good Example when it was developed on a PC and then ported to the consoles using the MT Framework engine.
 

SamBa

Banned
...blush...

sorry if mentioned here already.

"Patrick asks: We were very impressed with the game's graphics. How have you
used the PlayStation 3 in ways you couldn’t with your first game flOw?

Kellee: Definitely! We learned SO much on flOw, especially about SPUs! The grass system really leverages the PS3 to render 200,000 blades of grass simultaneously, and give the player this sense of blowing wind through them. Thank you for the kudos!

Patrick asks: Tell us more about rendering the blades of grass using the Cell's SPUs.

Kellee: An artist friend of ours came to us, really hoping that we could tell him some clever trick that we used to make it look like we had so many blades of grass. He was reluctant to believe that really, John Edwards just made it happen on the SPU's."

http://www.gamezine.co.uk/features/formats/playstation3/an-interview-with-thatgamecompany-flower-$1281103.htm
 

Zen

Banned
KeioSquad2 said:
For the side show, not the main attraction. What I mean is, I know that the cell reduces gpu load by preculling geometry and handling physics, particles, ai, lighting, and all that good stuff.

The thing is, not one single game on the PS3 comes close to, lets say, what an 8800 gtx could do because of the added processing by the cell. Take a look at the particles for instance, what good is having so many drawn on screen if they can't devote a decent amount of ram for them to display in a decent resolution? I know that 800 polys in the hands of an expert can be faked into looking like 5000, but what happens when they can't even get the gpu to agree to display the 800 with out dropping frames?

Killzone 2 has the spu's do a substantial amount of work, but the one thing they couldn't do is keep the framerate locked at 30 fps. It dropped massively at some points. I guess I wouldn't be so disappointed with all the talk these devs dish out about how much power they have, when all we get is screen tearing slideshows of jagged edges. Maybe if they stopped trying to overflow the glass with water and started trying to make a drink out of it we'd finally get somewhere.......

Sorry for the rant......

Honestly I never noticed framedrops except with high player counts in multiplayer, but we.
 
Persona7 said:
I don't see how RE5 can be a good Example when it was developed on a PC and then ported to the consoles using the MT Framework engine.
RE5
DMC4
...

Every game is ported from PC, I'm pretty sure almost every big game has lead on PS3 anyway except for Mirrors Edge and so on. I remember though developers saying they'd like to lead on PS3 these days and then port to 360 as it's easier for them instead of the other way around.

Now most people though this implied that PS3 games would be better performing, but that has not happened. The reason simply being that even if they lead on PS3, the 360 version is going to be easier to work on than the PS3 version and they simply have had more time on 360! So it's not a wise business decision for some to pour money into the PS3 version to make it "equal" when the average customer will not notice the difference.

Time and time again we forget that those of us posting online are a small minority compared to the millions that Nintendo has shown exist outside our bubble. There is simply no reason logically and financially to make two games the exact same. It's always been like this and I don't see why the PS3 and 360 situation is so much different.

Sony studios have shown what they're able to achieve working on a single platform and that speaks for itself. If you gave any top third party developer the time and attention to work on the PS3, you'd end up with a great title as well.

/The whole lunacy of "PS3 costs more to develop for" is something I've always shook my head at. It's not automatically more expensive than the 360 if you were to start at the exact same point at the exact same time. It's more expensive to get it to par on 360 versions because of the extra time needed not because it eats developers. So at the end of the day most will call it a day and we end up with the monthly "What's weaker" threads/...I'm trying to say something here but the wording is all wrong:lol
 

FirewalkR

Member
One of my favorite threads is back. :D

Regarding MikeB I didn't even realize he was re-banned, must have been a good while ago. I think he's also "MikeB" at Beyond3D though.

And yes, these days, things like KZ2 and UC2 are really showing some Cell power. It's a bit of a shame it has to compensate for a slightly underpowered GPU by all accounts, but it seems it is able to compensate and then some!

That SPU MSAA link was interesting... I really don't care for Quincunx. :/
 

drakesfortune

Directions: Pull String For Uninformed Rant
Personally as a PS360Wii owner, I think that when you have a huge budget you can make a game look and run better on PS3. When you don't have an unlimited budget ala Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, then 99% of the time things are better on 360. It's a bummer too, because I prefer my PS3, but being honest, most 360 games are better. I think it's undeniable.

And the quincunx (or whatever) aa is fucking awful. It's almost worse than no aa. Personally, I'd rather have lower res textures, lower geometry count etc, and msaa x2 or x4 any day. I think that aa is critical to making a game look good. I'm not sure how they worked all that magic in Killzone 2, but that is truly a technical feat like nothing else. That game looks amazing from start to finish, and I still can't think of anything that touches it on a console. Uncharted 2 looks prepared to beat it though. Have we had any confirmation that Naughty Dog kicked the screen tearing out the door?

I miss MikeB, I've always liked reading about the tech in this thread, I wish he was still following this and putting the info here. I know it's an inflammatory thread, but I like reading about PS3 tech. I think there's so much hidden power here, as evidenced by KZ2 and Uncharted. It's always interesting to hear what devs have to say about PS3, both good and bad.
 

SamBa

Banned
On WipeOut HD:

Digital Foundry: Can you give us some firm examples of how you leverage the power of the SPUs in WipEout HD? Can you offload some of the work traditionally done by the GPU onto the SPUs in order to get faster performance?

Studio Liverpool: Definitely, the SPUs are a godsend. We offloaded as much as we could onto the SPUs: physics collision, particle simulation, dynamic lighting, audio, data decompression and particle and trail rendering. We also made good use of the PS3's Edge tools which utilise the SPUs.

As well as relieving the GPU, in WipEout HD the SPUs perform almost all of the CPU's rendering operations such as inserting commands to set render state, set up shaders and issue geometry rendering commands.

Digital Foundry: Can you go into more depth on what advantages the Edge tools give you and how you deployed them in WipEout HD?

Studio Liverpool: We used Edge Geometry for triangle culling to dramatically reduce the vertices we need to process, and because it's a framework it's possible to add our own additional effects during this stage - all of the dynamic lighting effects are computed by the SPUs on the vertices that passed the visibility checks. WipEout HD supports up to 256 of these lights of any size (although it's rare to have more than a few active at once). They have since added Edge Post which provides greater support for SPU implemented framebuffer post processing effects.

Digital Foundry: Can you go into more depth about the lighting, shadowing and post-processing techniques used in WipEout HD? The game looks quite unlike anything else seen on console.

Studio Liverpool: We do as much of the lighting as we can offline. Global illumination and sun occlusion are both computed by an internally developed lighting system and baked onto textures and vertices. The ships themselves have pre-computed ambient occlusion, pre-computed diffuse probes (for image-based lighting) and pre-computed specular probes (for reflections). These are interpolated on the SPUs to light each ship with respect to its location in the scene.

All of our buffers are LDR, but all the lighting computations in the shaders (and dynamic SPU lighting) are HDR. Because our framebuffer is LDR we have a limited range for tone-mapping and bloom, but the artists have a high degree of control (probably a little too high for their liking!) of the entire lighting pipeline.

full interview:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-wipeout-hd-fury-interview?page=3
 
drakesfortune said:
Personally as a PS360Wii owner, I think that when you have a huge budget you can make a game look and run better on PS3. When you don't have an unlimited budget ala Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, then 99% of the time things are better on 360. It's a bummer too, because I prefer my PS3, but being honest, most 360 games are better. I think it's undeniable.

And the quincunx (or whatever) aa is fucking awful. It's almost worse than no aa. Personally, I'd rather have lower res textures, lower geometry count etc, and msaa x2 or x4 any day. I think that aa is critical to making a game look good. I'm not sure how they worked all that magic in Killzone 2, but that is truly a technical feat like nothing else. That game looks amazing from start to finish, and I still can't think of anything that touches it on a console. Uncharted 2 looks prepared to beat it though. Have we had any confirmation that Naughty Dog kicked the screen tearing out the door?

Uncharted 2 has a budget of around $20 million. Killzone 2 is anywhere from $20 million to $40 million (which was and still is the biggest budget SCEWWS has given to any dev ever, for God of War 3). By no means unlimited, no?

Also, you are wrong about Quincunx. It gives IQ that's better than 2xMSAA, but to an extant worst than 4xMSAA.

Here, take these screenshots as an example:

Geforce 3, 1024x768, 2xMSAA:
http://www.nvnews.net/previews/geforce3/images/antialiasing/gf3_q3_1024x768_2xaa.shtml

Geforce 3, 1024x768, Quincunx AA:
http://www.nvnews.net/previews/geforce3/images/antialiasing/gf3_q3_1024x768_qcaa.shtml

There is blur, but you really need to look at an object to notice a small amount of it. And it looks better than 2xMSAA, because of less jaggies.
 
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