babyghost853
Member
Vagabundo said:
Then you obviously have none. Welcome to my ignore list. I love threads like these, it makes it so easy to see who I have to ignore.
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PS3 OFW 3.56 New Feature: Rootkit (allegedly)
- Thread starter Vagabundo
- Start date
Then you obviously have none. Welcome to my ignore list. I love threads like these, it makes it so easy to see who I have to ignore.
Raist said:So feeling like you should have the right to run a snes emulator on a PS3 (not its intended use at all. Do you guys complain because your washing machine doesn't make cofee too?) is A-OK, but feeling like you should have the right to not be bothered by hackers online is stupid?
wtf.
I believe his argument is that no game is free from some cheats popping up. It's not a right to expect games to not have exploits. It's a fair point from him, but the whole 'cheats popping up from CFW is bad so don't play online' argument is fair too.
When I hack mine, I don't intend to go online with it anymore. I'll have another PS3 in the house soon and I'll use that for my online games, purchasing DLC and PSN games while the current PS3 will be used to take advantage of what CFW offers. I might play my new games on the new one too, if CFW can't support them due to older firmware.
Wtf indeed!Raist said:So feeling like you should have the right to run a snes emulator on a PS3 (not its intended use at all. Do you guys complain because your washing machine doesn't make cofee too?
wtf.
sony has a right to protect it's system to try and ensure their business isn't compromised... if that means removing a secondary feature, then it was a necessary evil... they didn't do it just to spite you... as someone who enjoys his ps3 as a gaming system, i would hate to see rampant piracy and hacking and cheating emerge just to keep the minority of people using otherOS happy.
if you ran a business and some guy found a secret passage into your store to potentially steal stuff and posted it on the internet, you wouldn't want to block it off? you'd just trust people not to use it?
as for this "rootkit" business... yeah i'm sure sony has tons of resources and manpower to go through the millions of ps3s and snoop through billions of files and watch you through your ps-eye hours at a time to make sure you're not being a bad boy!
i understand corporations aren't my friend, but they aren't out to ruin my life either. sheesh.
if you ran a business and some guy found a secret passage into your store to potentially steal stuff and posted it on the internet, you wouldn't want to block it off? you'd just trust people not to use it?
as for this "rootkit" business... yeah i'm sure sony has tons of resources and manpower to go through the millions of ps3s and snoop through billions of files and watch you through your ps-eye hours at a time to make sure you're not being a bad boy!
i understand corporations aren't my friend, but they aren't out to ruin my life either. sheesh.
My, how the tables have turned.................
2-3 weeks ago it was all "Sony are screwed, the hackers have opened the floodgates",
"ahahahaha Epic fail Sony! we win, scratch my e-peen"
and now Sony are on the verge of sorting it and it brings out the "I own the PS3 Sony waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I wanna play my SNES games AND browse the PS store" brigade.
Ridiculous!
2-3 weeks ago it was all "Sony are screwed, the hackers have opened the floodgates",
"ahahahaha Epic fail Sony! we win, scratch my e-peen"
and now Sony are on the verge of sorting it and it brings out the "I own the PS3 Sony waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I wanna play my SNES games AND browse the PS store" brigade.
Ridiculous!
Hey. I just bought some thing, right, and I just found a way to make it do a load of stuff that it wasn't even intended to. Its awesome. The byproduct of this is that there is potential harm to the experience of all the other users of this product, the maker of the product and those who make things to use on the product. Is it ok for me to get in a paddy for something coming along to close this loophole?
Now for the pro-homebrewers. Sorry boys, but I have to be fair about this.
Just because you have rights doesn't mean that you can disregard others' rights. Yes, I'm talking to you, cedric69, and anyone who might feel the same way about "punishing" Sony for their transgressions. You want to see Sony ravaged by piracy? Then you want to also punish the publishers who distribute the games, the developers who make them, and, ultimately, when they decide to move all their development to another platform (unlikely in the extreme, I know, but still...), the legit consumers who want to buy and play the latest games for their favourite system. That's not fair. Don't wish ill on those who have nothing to do with Sony's behaviour.
Not that I'm drinking the industry kool-aid regarding piracy - the false statistics and shoddy tactics employed by the industry in their "fight against crime" makes my blood boil sometimes - but everyone here has to admit that there ARE pirates out there, however few, and that it IS a problem, albeit a small one. I read a recent study from a Spanish university that concluded that of all the people out there who use BitTorrent, only 100 or so users generate two-thirds of all BitTorrent traffic. And half of those are spreading false copies for movie companies! Here's the link: From TG Daily
Nonetheless, piracy is still a legitimate, if trifling in the grand scheme of things, concern, especially for ill-informed shareholders who panic at the latest industry hyperbole and demand Sony do something about this, or they'll sell their shares. And, since a publicly-listed corporation's only loyalty is to its shareholders...well, you get draconian measures like DRM, online passes and what Sony have allegedly done with OFW 3.56. So don't hate the players, hate the game.
Like it or not, CFW makes online cheating on PSN easier. Not that it wouldn't exist without it, or will suddenly cease to exist if all CFW'd machines go offline for good, but we as homebrewers cannot deny that easier cracking of the system inevitably leads to easier methods of cheating online. See, when it's cracked, the PlayStation 3 becomes just like any other tool - it can be used for both good and evil purposes, it all depends on the hands that wield it. And, since we "good" homebrewers cannot control who else can install CFW on their machine (it's not like we can force them to take a personality test, is it?), it's only inevitable that some bad apples will spoil the orchard, as it were. So don't dismiss the other side as not having legitimate concerns, because they do.
If you're on CFW, why would you expect PSN access anyway? And if you don't expect it, why act like you do? Of course Sony are going to deny you access to PSN if you're on a firmware that's not entirely theirs, it's their duty to their shareholders and development partners. Although it would be nice of them to at least allow CFWers to access the PlayStation Store, we don't know whether that might compromise the rest of PSN, and thus the sensible thing to do is to remove access entirely.
You can still access PSN using a DNS trick, but that will last only a few days more at most (and I know that ugly-avatar'd tinfoil-hatter kitch9 has his own conspiracy theory about that, but the less said about that the better), so if any CFWers have any PS Store credit left, they'd better spend it soon. After that, Sony will close the loophole, and we'll be offline...from PSN, which is were we belong, I guess. Unless we decide to install OFW, in which case we lose all our homebrew, but at least we can buy that Faerie RPG!
The point is, any homebrewer with a clue knew that denial of PSN access would happen, it's a natural consequence of doing what you want with your own property. Your PS3 might be yours, but PSN is Sony's - and they have the right to deny access to whomever they see fit. PSN access is not a right - it's a privilege.
Oh, and babyghost853 - don't be a dick.
Just because you have rights doesn't mean that you can disregard others' rights. Yes, I'm talking to you, cedric69, and anyone who might feel the same way about "punishing" Sony for their transgressions. You want to see Sony ravaged by piracy? Then you want to also punish the publishers who distribute the games, the developers who make them, and, ultimately, when they decide to move all their development to another platform (unlikely in the extreme, I know, but still...), the legit consumers who want to buy and play the latest games for their favourite system. That's not fair. Don't wish ill on those who have nothing to do with Sony's behaviour.
Not that I'm drinking the industry kool-aid regarding piracy - the false statistics and shoddy tactics employed by the industry in their "fight against crime" makes my blood boil sometimes - but everyone here has to admit that there ARE pirates out there, however few, and that it IS a problem, albeit a small one. I read a recent study from a Spanish university that concluded that of all the people out there who use BitTorrent, only 100 or so users generate two-thirds of all BitTorrent traffic. And half of those are spreading false copies for movie companies! Here's the link: From TG Daily
Nonetheless, piracy is still a legitimate, if trifling in the grand scheme of things, concern, especially for ill-informed shareholders who panic at the latest industry hyperbole and demand Sony do something about this, or they'll sell their shares. And, since a publicly-listed corporation's only loyalty is to its shareholders...well, you get draconian measures like DRM, online passes and what Sony have allegedly done with OFW 3.56. So don't hate the players, hate the game.
Like it or not, CFW makes online cheating on PSN easier. Not that it wouldn't exist without it, or will suddenly cease to exist if all CFW'd machines go offline for good, but we as homebrewers cannot deny that easier cracking of the system inevitably leads to easier methods of cheating online. See, when it's cracked, the PlayStation 3 becomes just like any other tool - it can be used for both good and evil purposes, it all depends on the hands that wield it. And, since we "good" homebrewers cannot control who else can install CFW on their machine (it's not like we can force them to take a personality test, is it?), it's only inevitable that some bad apples will spoil the orchard, as it were. So don't dismiss the other side as not having legitimate concerns, because they do.
If you're on CFW, why would you expect PSN access anyway? And if you don't expect it, why act like you do? Of course Sony are going to deny you access to PSN if you're on a firmware that's not entirely theirs, it's their duty to their shareholders and development partners. Although it would be nice of them to at least allow CFWers to access the PlayStation Store, we don't know whether that might compromise the rest of PSN, and thus the sensible thing to do is to remove access entirely.
You can still access PSN using a DNS trick, but that will last only a few days more at most (and I know that ugly-avatar'd tinfoil-hatter kitch9 has his own conspiracy theory about that, but the less said about that the better), so if any CFWers have any PS Store credit left, they'd better spend it soon. After that, Sony will close the loophole, and we'll be offline...from PSN, which is were we belong, I guess. Unless we decide to install OFW, in which case we lose all our homebrew, but at least we can buy that Faerie RPG!
The point is, any homebrewer with a clue knew that denial of PSN access would happen, it's a natural consequence of doing what you want with your own property. Your PS3 might be yours, but PSN is Sony's - and they have the right to deny access to whomever they see fit. PSN access is not a right - it's a privilege.
Oh, and babyghost853 - don't be a dick.
Is it just me, or has this whole thing been way overblown?
Granted I only read the first couple pages, what makes this any different from what Microsoft does to ban hacked consoles? How is this a rootkit? I read a lot of speculation and jumping to conclusions, but no definitive answer.
I was strongly opposed to Sony's removal of OtherOS an I do believe users have the right to circumvent security on their own hardware should they wish, especially after the OtherOS fiasco. On the other hand, I also believe Sony has a right to protect their PSN service from people who may use compromised systems to cheat or otherwise be a nuisance on their network.
The only thing I can ascertain for sure from what I've read is this new remote code execution apparently helps detect compromised systems for a possible later banning from PSN. Is this similar to what Microsoft does? If so, why are we complaining?
IMO, they've been much too slow in bringing down the banhammer.
Granted I only read the first couple pages, what makes this any different from what Microsoft does to ban hacked consoles? How is this a rootkit? I read a lot of speculation and jumping to conclusions, but no definitive answer.
I was strongly opposed to Sony's removal of OtherOS an I do believe users have the right to circumvent security on their own hardware should they wish, especially after the OtherOS fiasco. On the other hand, I also believe Sony has a right to protect their PSN service from people who may use compromised systems to cheat or otherwise be a nuisance on their network.
The only thing I can ascertain for sure from what I've read is this new remote code execution apparently helps detect compromised systems for a possible later banning from PSN. Is this similar to what Microsoft does? If so, why are we complaining?
IMO, they've been much too slow in bringing down the banhammer.
babyghost853
Member
Dead Man said:
You can what the hell all you want. I know why I put him/her on ignore, I can't stand people that spread fud, he/she is not the only one I added. But then again if anyone can show me how this new system is vulnerable, and not just some straw-man what if someone managed to do what has not been done argument (i.e hack the psn servers.). I will gladly eat crow and apologise for my ignorance.
All I really see in this thread is a bunch of people who were all like "haha sony's fucked, ps3 has been hacked and there is nothing they can do about it." All bitching because sony found a way to do something about it.
I'm going to steal that quote now and put it to better use.
If you bought a ps3 hoping that some day it would be hacked and you could run cfw. What the hell?
If you bought a ps3 for cfw and didn't expect sony to fight back. What the hell?
If you thought sony would not respond to the hackers. What the hell?
If you bought a ps3 to play mario on it. What the hell?
I bought mine to play game, and guess what, it works for that, it also works for movies, music and a whole bunch of other crap that I don't really use. The fact that it might not or does not run cfw anymore means jack shit to me. I don't remember sony saying hey you can run cfw on you're ps3, they did say that about other os but that is a can of worms I will not open.
snorggy said:
Billions of knives are sold per year; it's odd that these knife companies trust their purchasers to NOT STAB PEOPLE. Necessary evils as an excuse is why things are so fucked up as they are.
Oh, and 'piracy' is not stealing. You can't steal something that doesn't belong to anyone.
babyghost853
Member
Dambrosi said:
Don't worry, I'm not, some people just need to be ignored. I read this entire thread and not just the bits I felt were relevant, some of the comments in here make me want to put a brick through my face and not just a palm.
They do have a right to remove features in new products ... they may not legally have that right for retroactive removal however. The courts will decide.snorggy said:
Getting past otherOS issues however, we now have a new pile of fun to shovel. Rootkits. I can't fathom how Sony thought this would go over well. Did they forget the entire Sony/BMG fiasco? Let's just say the courts will not be happy with this ... at all.
So as you say, Sony has the right to combat piracy ... as long as it's not breaking laws/treading on rights in the process. When we look back on this in a few years, many jurisdictions will have found Sony as batting 0 for 2 up to this point. Let's just see if they strike out completely. Your move Sony.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Agreed, just added you to my ignore list. I can do without your holier-than-thou condescending attitude.babyghost853 said:
Mr. Mister
Member
Raistlin said:
It isn't a root kit. Looks like you are batting 0 for 1.
I predicted this, however, they're toast, there's nothing they can do to stop CFW for 50+ million PS3s. Nothing. This might've worked before the keys were leaked, but it is a worthless cause now. In fact, if anything this just opens up another hole for jailbreaking PS3s in the future.
painful fart
Member
babyghost853 said:
Pretty good points. Sometime I also wonder why people are buying a console.
And yeah seriously, are people expecting the PSN servers to suddenly be hacked?
Mr. Mister
Member
Raistlin said:
Using the term alleged is dumb. Allege away but the fact is that this is nothing close to a root kit.
Diablohead
Member
Hacked could mean anything, there's a lot of things needed to make it work well with homebrew.Zeal said:
Ploid 3.0
Member
Diablohead said:
Dang I was waiting for the "oops we hacked it but now we can't log onto PSN anymore" or a lot of CFW people being locked out of ever logging onto PSN again. I want to see what happens when this verification check thing can't find what it's looking for.
Mr. Mister said:
It allows them to use the word Rootkit to make it sound sinister. Like Strider in MVC3!! (Rumor)
When I installed CFW on my PS3, I knew I was giving up PSN, but I was ok with that since I never used it anyways. The only thing I got off of PSN for the PS3 was that Metal Gear history thing. Besides that it was PS1 games, which I can still get with my PSP.
Anything else I get on LIVE.
Anything else I get on LIVE.
babyghost853 said:
The scene right now is kinda "powerless" and won't "attack" Sony full force because they don't have the tools to do it yet, as only the talented ones have access to the things that really makes the console vulnerable, like HV decryption. You can do so much with HV calls.
The thing here is that Sony is pissing off those guys with DMCA notices. And some of them already made ultimatums, if they piss them off a little bit more, those tools will be available to your average cracker and things might get nasty to the common user, and as I'm sure that will happen, the only thing to do here is to wait and see.
Good post. Better than most in this thread.Dante23 said:
I believe you're correct, since the "sides" (Sony and the hackers) only seem to get more extreme by the day. The really meaty stuff (HV decryption, NPDRM, etc) will be leaked soon at this rate, and Sony's behaviour is only encouraging that...well, inevitability, now.
But, on the other hand, with all that's happened, and remembering their duties to their shareholdes and partners - what else can Sony do?
It's a vicious cycle, and it's up to both parties to stop the bird-flipping before it reaches its conclusion.
It's amazing how much hacking a system seems to divide gamers. I am dead against piracy and not paying my way for movies and games that countless individuals have spent thousands of hours developing and sometimes millions of pounds bringing to life. I think if you ignore that fact and just pick these things up for free without caring or giving a shit about the implications this causes then fair enough. But would most of you be happy working for free and not being paid for your effort and hard work? Or would you be happy if you worked in the industry putting in ridiculous hours finishing a high quality project that yourself and a team have spent years in the making only to hear that someone played or watched it, really loved it, but didn't feel the need to pay a penny towards having the experience? I very much doubt it.
Then again there are so many people that hack their systems just because they love gaming and this opens up endless possibilities that would never exist due to licensing issues and companies refusing to update and share experiences that have long since past. It is a superb feeling to have everything you loved growing up with and also being able to play all of this on one system. And without hackers and the individuals that work hard creating the emulators for all of this we would never have this opportunity, especially out with using a PC. And even then I see people complaining on websites etc even though these individuals aren't getting paid to give you what you want. Many people seem to want or expect to have everything for nothing these days and it is a real shame this is becoming the case.
But then I seem to fall in the middle somewhere. Since Nintendo have completely botched up the Virtual Console here in the UK I refused to play through Super Metroid for the first time ever with a 576i, bordered screen when I could play it full speed, 480p and without borders and with better graphics on homebrew software. So I hacked my Wii, purchased Super Metroid on VC (since i'd never paid for it before), downloaded the ROM, and played it on the SNES emulator on the homebrew channel. And what a great experience it was, especially after comparing it to the VC version. I guess all I have to do now is send some praise or donate some money to the folks behind the emulation software!
But anyway I don't mind all of those that do this for legitimate reasons and have owned many of the stuff they have hacked the system for anyway. But for those who start manipulating software, pirating games and cheating online etc, well I have to say I don't have time for it. But each to their own I suppose...
Then again there are so many people that hack their systems just because they love gaming and this opens up endless possibilities that would never exist due to licensing issues and companies refusing to update and share experiences that have long since past. It is a superb feeling to have everything you loved growing up with and also being able to play all of this on one system. And without hackers and the individuals that work hard creating the emulators for all of this we would never have this opportunity, especially out with using a PC. And even then I see people complaining on websites etc even though these individuals aren't getting paid to give you what you want. Many people seem to want or expect to have everything for nothing these days and it is a real shame this is becoming the case.
But then I seem to fall in the middle somewhere. Since Nintendo have completely botched up the Virtual Console here in the UK I refused to play through Super Metroid for the first time ever with a 576i, bordered screen when I could play it full speed, 480p and without borders and with better graphics on homebrew software. So I hacked my Wii, purchased Super Metroid on VC (since i'd never paid for it before), downloaded the ROM, and played it on the SNES emulator on the homebrew channel. And what a great experience it was, especially after comparing it to the VC version. I guess all I have to do now is send some praise or donate some money to the folks behind the emulation software!
But anyway I don't mind all of those that do this for legitimate reasons and have owned many of the stuff they have hacked the system for anyway. But for those who start manipulating software, pirating games and cheating online etc, well I have to say I don't have time for it. But each to their own I suppose...
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Dambrosi said:
Regarding NPDRM, you don't think that will just been done by a pirate group or people selling pirated software anyway eventually?
FLEABttn said:
And it's only alleged because people don't understand what a rootkit really is. This is not a rootkit. Period.
As for this as well:
Raistlin said:
The only ruling so far in this issue has actually been ruled in favor of Sony... in Australia. I'm fully expecting the class action suit here in the US to be settled by attorneys for hardly any benefit to customers and fully in favor of getting attorneys as much money as possible and without a declaration of fault by Sony, meaning the courts will not resolve anything in the US.
Dambrosi said:
It's not a rootkit. At all.
Dos this enable privileged access to someone who otherwise doesn't have privileged access? No. Sony has always had privileged access to your PS3.
Does it subvert standard operating system functionality or other applications? No, as nothing in the standard operating system functionality or other standard applications is subverted.
There's no opinion on this, unless it's your opinion that the definition of rootkit is up for interpretation.
FLEABttn said:
Well I think whether or not Sony should have privileged access to your PS3 certainly is an opinion and is up for debate.
It's not a rootkit, but people are using the term for it because there is no language for what Sony is doing.
Rootkit - allows someone you didn't expect to execute instructions using your computer/hardware.
Sony's new firmware - allows someone you didn't expect to execute instructions using your computer/hardware.
Will it be bad that Sony can execute instructions on your hardware without your express opinion? Probably not, should they be allowed to? No.
If I'm renting a place, even if the landlord's brother/kid/whoever has a key to the place I am renting, I was expect them to stay the fuck out.
I would expect if Sony wants to execute code on my machine to get a dialog that asks me if it is okay - every time.