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[jbug617]

The only specs out there for Scorpio is this:

8 CPU Cores
Over 320GB/S of Memory Bandwidth
6TF GPU

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I'm saying that Xbox Scorpio could be just like what the Neo is to the PS4 a APU with 2X the CUs with a higher clock speed & because Polaris is capable of half-precision computation Microsoft was able to say that it is 6tflops because


24 compute units clocked at 1Ghz would be 3tflops single-precision & 6tflops half-precision.


Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

Oh god.

Lol.

The idea that Sony will have a weaker console is making people delirious.

 

[JP]

Apart from the obvious giveaway due to what it's called, does anybody have a video that could explain what "checkerboard rendering" is, to a beginner? Preferably something that explains the positives and negatives of such an approach?

It keeps getting mentioned here and obviously the name itself suggests something but I just don't know what it means in real world terms. I've searched for videos but I've not been able to find anything that covers it.

Thanks.

 

[KOHIPEET]

Oh god.

Lol.

The idea that Sony will have a weaker console is making people delirious.

This.

IMO, the idea of seeing U4 with 2.3 times the graphical fidelity makes ME delirious.

 

[Sporran]

Apart from the obvious giveaway due to what it's called, does anybody have a video that could explain what "checkerboard rendering" is, to a beginner? Preferably something that explains the positives and negatives of such an approach?

Ive not got a foggey, but found this Ubisoft presentation that covers the topic. P45 onwards

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vaul...s/El_Mansouri_Jalal_Rendering_Rainbow_Six.pdf

 

[mieumieu]

Apart from the obvious giveaway due to what it's called, does anybody have a video that could explain what "checkerboard rendering" is, to a beginner? Preferably something that explains the positives and negatives of such an approach?

It keeps getting mentioned here and obviously the name itself suggests something but I just don't know what it means in real world terms. I've searched for videos but I've not been able to find anything that covers it.

Thanks.

You can find some details in the Rendering Rainbow Six Siege presentation.

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vaul...s/El_Mansouri_Jalal_Rendering_Rainbow_Six.pdf

Basically reconstructing the image temporally by alternating the samples it will render each frame.

edit: beaten... but you can also see http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-rainbow-six-siege-face-off for a more readable explanation.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

This.

IMO, the idea of seeing U4 with 2.3 times the graphical fidelity makes ME delirious.

I don't see what the big deal is. Even a "weaker" Neo will still produce stunning results. People need to get a grip and just enjoy their games. Scorpio being more powerful doesn't suddenly make all your PS4 games look like shit and less enjoyable.

 

[cebri.one]

It's 2014 all over again.

 

[mrklaw]

You realize you will see every game in 4K as your output right?

 

[ShadowFox08]

You realize you will see every game in 4K as your output right?

Not until next generation. Not even Scorpio can support that with 60 fps.

 

[JP]

Ive not got a foggey, but found this Ubisoft presentation that covers the topic. P45 onwards

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vaul...s/El_Mansouri_Jalal_Rendering_Rainbow_Six.pdf

You can find some details in the Rendering Rainbow Six Siege presentation.

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vaul...s/El_Mansouri_Jalal_Rendering_Rainbow_Six.pdf

Basically reconstructing the image temporally by alternating the samples it will render each frame.

edit: beaten... but you can also see http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-rainbow-six-siege-face-off for a more readable explanation.

Thanks for that, that gives me an idea of what it is. I'm surprised at how much of a saving it gives in relation to performance.

 

[GhostTrick]

I'm saying that Xbox Scorpio could be just like what the Neo is to the PS4 a APU with 2X the CUs with a higher clock speed & because Polaris is capable of half-precision computation Microsoft was able to say that it is 6tflops because


24 compute units clocked at 1Ghz would be 3tflops single-precision & 6tflops half-precision.


Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

That's really far fetched. But to be fair, this could also happen. Although I doubt it's happening. I think it was about twice more CU, it would be released sooner.

 

[onQ123]

Oh god.

Lol.

The idea that Sony will have a weaker console is making people delirious.

Never forget (They never said it was single precision FP32 )

http://www.ign.com/articles/2005/05/16/e3-2005-ps3-tech-specs-2

 

[Putty]

Not until next generation. Not even Scorpio can support that with 60 fps.

I got the reference, alas you did not.

 

[dragonelite]

I'm saying that Xbox Scorpio could be just like what the Neo is to the PS4 a APU with 2X the CUs with a higher clock speed & because Polaris is capable of half-precision computation Microsoft was able to say that it is 6tflops because


24 compute units clocked at 1Ghz would be 3tflops single-precision & 6tflops half-precision.


Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

Dude come on this is some misterx media level of Spinning. Unless the joke went over my head.

Not until next generation. Not even Scorpio can support that with 60 fps.

Wouldn't be surprised if devs will target 1080p with 4xMsaa for 1080p screen and reconstruct a 4k target with msaa samples and temporal information maybe Sony will provide some optimized API calls to do it.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Apart from the obvious giveaway due to what it's called, does anybody have a video that could explain what "checkerboard rendering" is, to a beginner? Preferably something that explains the positives and negatives of such an approach?

http://wccftech.com/ubisoft-figured-fit-lot-stuff-esram/

"With Temporal Checkerboard rendering you can win up to 50% GPU time without significant quality loss. This technique also allows you to cut the memory footprint of all fullscreen render targets by half. Using a GPU-Driven pipeline can vastly improve drawcall count scalability allowing you to draw tens of thousands of possibly unique objects per frame."

 

[Aceofspades]

Oh god.

Lol.

The idea that Sony will have a weaker console is making people delirious.

Its just onQ123 usual "uprendering" and now "double precision/single precision" madness.

 

[Matt]

I'm saying that Xbox Scorpio could be just like what the Neo is to the PS4 a APU with 2X the CUs with a higher clock speed & because Polaris is capable of half-precision computation Microsoft was able to say that it is 6tflops because


24 compute units clocked at 1Ghz would be 3tflops single-precision & 6tflops half-precision.


Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

Lol, nah.

 

[John_B]

The numbers listed for Scorpio's memory bandwidth does not look misleading though. It would make little sense if the GPU was only 3 teraflops then.

Will there even be that much of a visual difference between Neo and Scorpio? Paired with a 4K display both will render the same assets as on PS4 and X1 just at 60-100% of 2160p. If Neo renders a title at 75% and Scorpio renders it at 90% will it be a big distinction?

Paired with an HDTV display both will likely bump the frame rate and the quality of the assets at 1080p, but again likely not to a distinction as big as 30 vs 60 fps.

 

[Sayad]

Not until next generation. Not even Scorpio can support that with 60 fps.

https://twitter.com/aarongreenberg/status/396066138875912192

 

[mrklaw]

http://wccftech.com/ubisoft-figured-fit-lot-stuff-esram/

"With Temporal Checkerboard rendering you can win up to 50% GPU time without significant quality loss. This technique also allows you to cut the memory footprint of all fullscreen render targets by half. Using a GPU-Driven pipeline can vastly improve drawcall count scalability allowing you to draw tens of thousands of possibly unique objects per frame."

given the relatively good impressions of this tech, I think Neo could look pretty nice on a 4k screen using a starting resolution above 1080p - maybe 1920x2160 and then horizontally stretching it to 4k.

But that also means that Scorpio - which I had pegged as struggling to hit 4k considering many Xbox one games struggle to hit 1080p - will also benefit greatly from this. Unless MS pushes for the dynamic resolution approach due to synergy with windows 10. In that case there could be a potential for neo closing the perceived resolution gap to scorpio

 

[gtj1092]

Well, the jump will not be as high if you buy every iteration, but if you skip some I don't see how the jump wouldn't be the same as a full generation.

This is actually what I like about iterative releases, it's ultimately your choice when to jump to new hardware and I think you'd be able to keep a console for longer than you would on a traditional generation cycle (a normal one, not the almost 10 year long the last one was)


There's actually something very unique about Ms platform : The fact that it's the exact same network, with the exact same APIs and libraries. You don't need to support cross play (save for the guidelines about handling different input methods), you just implement the network on your game and it works on Xbox, scorpio and pc if you like. Convenience is key for a feature to get developer support.

Which is also why we don't see much cross gen games with a shared community. The 360 live is different from the xbone's, you still have work to provide interop between those two. But from now on Xbox live is just a single entity on Xbone, Scorpio, pc and whatever comes next, so it's zero work for the dev to have those platforms sharing the same user base.

So would you rather have had battlefield stay at 32 players this generation rather than jumping to 64? Do PC gamers not rejoice when a new generation starts because the base line for development increases? I don't want to play against someone owning a ps4 if it means the ps5 version has to be gimped.

 

[Ushay]

I'm saying that Xbox Scorpio could be just like what the Neo is to the PS4 a APU with 2X the CUs with a higher clock speed & because Polaris is capable of half-precision computation Microsoft was able to say that it is 6tflops because


24 compute units clocked at 1Ghz would be 3tflops single-precision & 6tflops half-precision.


Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

Swinging for the fences here son.

 

[wonderful103]

Lol, nah.

I personally can't wait for the next grass gate. Question is if it happens before or after more about scorpio leaks

 

[longdi]

The numbers listed for Scorpio's memory bandwidth does not look misleading though. It would make little sense if the GPU was only 3 teraflops then.

Will there even be that much of a visual difference between Neo and Scorpio? Paired with a 4K display both will render the same assets as on PS4 and X1 just at 60-100% of 2160p. If Neo renders a title at 75% and Scorpio renders it at 90% will it be a big distinction?

Paired with an HDTV display both will likely bump the frame rate and the quality of the assets at 1080p, but again likely not to a distinction as big as 30 vs 60 fps.

The difference will be larger than PS4>X1.

All 4 consoles will still target PS4/X1 base specs. So when you see PS4 with 'just' a 0.5Tflops over X1, imagine Scorpio with 1.8Tflops advantage over Neo. Sony new console will get rekt in DF h-to-h videos.

As such, I am certain Sony will sell Neo this Oct, at 399~429. Neo is the new Slim.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

You realize you will see every game in 4K as your output right?

I understood that reference.

 

[scently]

given the relatively good impressions of this tech, I think Neo could look pretty nice on a 4k screen using a starting resolution above 1080p - maybe 1920x2160 and then horizontally stretching it to 4k.

But that also means that Scorpio - which I had pegged as struggling to hit 4k considering many Xbox one games struggle to hit 1080p - will also benefit greatly from this. Unless MS pushes for the dynamic resolution approach due to synergy with windows 10. In that case there could be a potential for neo closing the perceived resolution gap to scorpio

Why exactly will MS push for something that will make the console look worse. They have already said that the power there is for the developers to do with as they see fit. If you feel these techniques are going to be beneficial to Neo, I see them even more beneficial for Scorpio. I can see a situation whereby the Neo is targeted at a particular resolution and effects, while Scorpio targets a higher res and more effects or fidelity, and both reconstructed to 4k.

 

[Detective]

Never forget (They never said it was single precision FP32 )

http://www.ign.com/articles/2005/05/16/e3-2005-ps3-tech-specs-2

My guts tells me that you are one of Crazy Ken believers . PS3 120FPS and 4D.

Keep it up. Am having a blast

 

[[Agent]ZeroNine]

Is it clear whether or not if a developer can opted to keep their game's resolution at 1080P and just jack the graphics way up?

Apologies if this question has been asked before. This thread moves like a runaway train.

 

[family_guy]

I'm not concerned with it being weaker. The 4k Bluray player functionality is what appeals to me. If they can include 1080p recording and have a chassis that could support larger 2.5 HDDs that would be icing on the cake. Hell surprise everyone Sony and put a PS3 chip in their for BC.

 

[Asmodai48]

The only specs out there for Scorpio is this:

8 CPU Cores
Over 320GB/S of Memory Bandwidth
6TF GPU

Right... Because its over a year away...

 

[Bitch Pudding]

You realize you will see every game in 4K as your output right?

Not until next generation. Not even Scorpio can support that with 60 fps.

joke-you.gif

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Right... Because its over a year away...

I think it safe to say Microsoft know what specs they will have already. I also think with Phil's emphasis on "true" 4K, 6TF and the tagline "most powerful console ever", he already knew about Neo's checkerboard rendering techniques and 4.2TF power.

 

[mrklaw]

Why exactly will MS push for something that will make the console look worse. They have already said that the power there is for the developers to do with as they see fit. If you feel these techniques are going to be beneficial to Neo, I see them even more beneficial for Scorpio. I can see a situation whereby the Neo is targeted at a particular resolution and effects, while Scorpio targets a higher res and more effects or fidelity, and both reconstructed to 4k.

Of course devs are free to do what they prefer. It isn't about what is specifically beneficial to Scorpio - MS are looking at this as a bigger picture than just Xbox, its a cross platform approach that needs to work well on PC too.

Sony is pushing this reconstruction approach, and MS have used dynamic resolution before and talked about it specifically in relation to Scorpio. It also potentially makes a 'play anywhere' game more easily portable between PC and XB1.

It may simply be something that MS uses in first party games, or they may recommend that approach. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Leyasu]

I think it safe to say Microsoft know what specs they will have already. I also think with Phil's emphasis on "true" 4K, 6TF and the tagline "most powerful console ever", he already knew about Neo's checkerboard rendering techniques and 4.2TF power.

Totally agree .

 

[onQ123]

Lol, nah.

Just checking

 

[onQ123]

Dude come on this is some misterx media level of Spinning. Unless the joke went over my head.



Wouldn't be surprised if devs will target 1080p with 4xMsaa for 1080p screen and reconstruct a 4k target with msaa samples and temporal information maybe Sony will provide some optimized API calls to do it.

I'm not spinning anything I'm just pointing out that if the GPU is using FP16 they could still say it's 6TF even if they are not talking about single-precision FP32.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I'm not spinning anything I'm just pointing out that if the GPU is using FP16 they could still say it's 6TF even if they are not talking about single-precision FP32.

Technically they could, but with what Phil said at E3 and presuming you believe Neo's 4.2TF is single-precision, do you really believe that to be the case?

 

[scently]

Of course devs are free to do what they prefer. It isn't about what is specifically beneficial to Scorpio - MS are looking at this as a bigger picture than just Xbox, its a cross platform approach that needs to work well on PC too.

Sony is pushing this reconstruction approach, and MS have used dynamic resolution before and talked about it specifically in relation to Scorpio. It also potentially makes a 'play anywhere' game more easily portable between PC and XB1.

It may simply be something that MS uses in first party games, or they may recommend that approach. We'll have to wait and see.

That will be hard to pull off in practice. I don't see how you can set a framebuffer of 4k and expect to scale dynamically between X1 and Scorpio. Every developer will do as they see fit. The dynamic scaling was just in response to how games with a dynamic res will run as full res on Scorpio.

 

[LukasTaves]

If you think tech advancement in a linear way, sure.
PC and mobile are the perfect example of stale. Legacy support is the biggest obstruction for innovation. Want to use new and better tech or architecture? Nope, it will kill compatible. Let's stick to the old tech until we can achieve full emulation.
Let's just stick to X% faster every year. How advance is that.

X% faster every year wouldn't be a linear growth.

A 20% growth every year for five years is almost 150% instead of just 100% faster. Ok reality the jump it's even bigger, 5 years ago gpus were hitting 1 teraflop, now they are hitting 10.

And if you call PC and mobile stale, how would you call console evolution? Mobile parts have caught up and past to last generation, and every generation consoles are slower compared to PC at launch. Drastically so even these days. For instance, neo isn't even announced and its gpu running at a higher clock is already on the market for only 200 dollars, and it's no where close to being a high end part. In fact there's gpu from two years ago that are very likely to outperform both neo and Scorpio. How's that not stale?

I know there are other reasons to have weaklings consoles but right now they are definitely behind the curve.

 

[cooldawn]

I'n not a technical egghead but I get the concept...however, they absolutely need to include a large HDD this time. 1TB at least...2TB would be ideal.

Also, on the up-side, Sony first party developers are really clever so even if this thing is underpowered history tells us at the very least first party titles will still blow minds. Perceptively bridging the gap somewhat.

 

[LukasTaves]

That will be hard to pull off in practice. I don't see how you can set a framebuffer of 4k and expect to scale dynamically between X1 and Scorpio. Every developer will do as they see fit. The dynamic scaling was just in response to how games with a dynamic res will run as full res on Scorpio.

They are also studying about dynamically scaling each setting individually. Devs would definitely do as they see fit, but it makes easier to support many fixed devices which could have different strengths.

 

[LukasTaves]

So would you rather have had battlefield stay at 32 players this generation rather than jumping to 64? Do PC gamers not rejoice when a new generation starts because the base line for development increases? I don't want to play against someone owning a ps4 if it means the ps5 version has to be gimped.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I actually said that if the console limit the game they should be dropped, for that game only.

Because battlefield demanding more than what ps360 were capable of pushing at decent framerates shouldn't limits the games that didn't like destiny, titan fall, call of duty and every other cross gen game that didn't had anything scaled back on last gen other than framerate or visuals.

 

[mabec]

Someone with insight and understands this better then me, why is it they keep using slow HDDs to load 4K content from? This can't be healthy.

 

[mieumieu]

Someone with insight and understands this better then me, why is it they keep using slow HDDs to load 4K content from? This can't be healthy.

Sony probably don't expect developers to use better textures than on the base PS4.

 

[Ushay]

Lol, nah.

Isn't Matt an insider?

 

[davidwhangchoi]

we are still hoping for this? They want to launch this before scorpio it wont be near Scorpio specs.

Btw amazon spain listed a new PS4 Model for 400€
http://vgleaks.com/amazon-lists-new-ps4-model-released-october-13-e400/

FWIW, Jim Ryan said this about Scorpio when asked:



https://www.vg247.com/2016/06/16/ps4-at-e3-we-shouldnt-rely-on-anybody-else-we-should-blaze-a-trail/

cool! thanks guys for the links =)

 

[GhostTrick]

If you think tech advancement in a linear way, sure.
PC and mobile are the perfect example of stale. Legacy support is the biggest obstruction for innovation. Want to use new and better tech or architecture? Nope, it will kill compatible. Let's stick to the old tech until we can achieve full emulation.
Let's just stick to X% faster every year. How advance is that.

Lol what ? PC and mobile KEPT using new and better tech or architecture. It didnt killed compatibility.

 

[Lady Gaia]

Someone with insight and understands this better then me, why is it they keep using slow HDDs to load 4K content from? This can't be healthy.

As opposed to SSDs? HDDs still offer more capacity at lower cost, and that's pretty much the end of the story.

 

[geordiemp]

Lol, nah.

So when do you think Sony will launch a Ps4 upgrade that is capable of 60 FPS open world gaming for enthusiasts ?

Neo is not looking good and it may delay Ps5 for another 3 years.

For once, MS making the correct technical steps by the look of things (assuming they put Zen in, Bandwidth and TF looks great).