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Rogue One is a better Star Wars film than The Force Awakens

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This is exactly it.

I'm okay with giant planet destroying weapons.
I'm okay with space magic.
I'm okay with spirits of the dead communing with people that are still living.
I'm not okay with the Starkiller base laser splitting into more lasers WHAT THE FUCK JJ
The Starkiller base bugs me the most about TFA, but it still doesn't bother me too much. At the end of the day, I said to myself "if they have the ability to build a death star, or death star-like base, why the fuck wouldn't they?" In fact, it would be silly for them to NOT keep building shit that powerful. The problem is more in the secruity they put on those damn things. Might be time to outsource.
 

Surfinn

Member
That doesnt change the fact they were introduced. People are not going to forget about how Time Travel was originally explained in Harry Potter only because the new book/play does whatever the fuck it wants with the concept.

People had problems with it and rightly so.
The main films aren't going to go into quantifying the force or undermine it's mythology, so in a way it doesn't really matter what's canon in the cartoons. They're virtually eliminating those elements from the episodes since they don't utilize them.

Uou'll probably never see the word Midichlorians in the movies again, for example, so at some point it's essentially non canon
 

Davide

Member
I love the movie but Starkiller base is the weakest thing about it.

For the Empire it made some degree of sense as to how they could fund it since they were in control of the majority of the galaxy and had seized the money of the Separatist unions - Trade Federaation, Muun bankers - or something to that effect. Starkiller base comes just after Death Star II in the previous film, it's more huge (why?), it must be ridiculously expensive, and even I wasn't quite sure if it was part-planet.

EDIT: So it is a planet. Nevermind.
 

Fj0823

Member
The main films aren't going to go into quantifying the force or undermine it's mythology, so in a way it doesn't really matter what's canon in the cartoons. They're virtually eliminating those elements from the episodes since they don't utilize them.

Uou'll probably never see the word Midichlorians in the movies again, for example, so at some point it's essentially non canon

Just like Saw Guerrera from The Clone Wars didn't matter...sure.

The story group works to do exactly the opposite of what you're saying. The most theyll do is write around the canon, but they've been pretty clear that things will not become "non canon" just because they aren't mentioned

It's also funny to see people pull the "cartoons don't count" trump card even when the concepts I'm referring to come from the prequels which are clearly not being ignored, the shows only expanded on them a bit
 

DeanBDean

Member
Just like Saw Guerrera from The Clone Wars didn't matter...sure.

The story group works to do exactly the opposite of what you're saying. The most theyll do is write around the canon, but they've been pretty clear that things will not become "non canon" just because they aren't mentioned

Like most of the audience for Rogue One, I haven't seen The Clone Wars. So he was just Forrest Whittaker in a big suit with a weird voice who shoved brain slugs on former Imperial pilots for some reason. And someone who seemed way more interesting in the trailer than in the actual movie.

If anything from the Clone Wars is inconvenient to a future movie, especially a future mainline number, the story group will find an excuse for it, not shoot down an idea that's good for that movie.
 

Davide

Member
If anything from the Clone Wars is inconvenient to a future movie, especially a future mainline number, the story group will find an excuse for it, not shoot down an idea that's good for that movie.

My hope is Christopher Nolan directs a brilliant Clone Wars film and wipes away everything made by Filoni.
 

Surfinn

Member
Just like Saw Guerrera from The Clone Wars didn't matter...sure.

The story group works to do exactly the opposite of what you're saying. The most theyll do is write around the canon, but they've been pretty clear that things will not become "non canon" just because they aren't mentioned

It's also funny to see people pull the "cartoons don't count" trump card even when the concepts I'm referring to come from the prequels which are clearly not being ignored, the shows only expanded on them a bit
I'm not saying they're non canon. I'm saying it's as IF they're non canon (specific shitty ideas from a particular movie or show) because those ideas are simply ignored, moving forward in the main films. I'm talking about the way the force is used specifically. Of course they use stuff from the PT and cartoons. But the more obviously shitty stuff like Midichlorians will never see the light of day in the main films.
 

DeanBDean

Member
My hope is Christopher Nolan directs a brilliant Clone Wars film and wipes away everything made by Filoni.

Man, the dogfight in that Dunkirk preview before Rogue One was incredible. A Star Wars movie with stuff like that, and Tom Hardy playing anything...
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Did you miss the part where Rey uses the Force to pull the lightsaber toward her, then proceeds to kick Kylo Ren's ass? I'd say that had something to do with it.

giphy.gif


Visual storytelling. That fight, the saber catch, that moment when they're locked and Kylo mentions the Force was the "awakening" for her, hence the title.

What does that actually have to do with her wanting to be a Jedi? Being a Jedi is a way of life. A belief structure. A mindset.

Rey pulling the Lightsaber was her accepting the fact that she can use the Force, not that she wants to become a Jedi. As Maz Kanata shows, having an aptitude for the Force doesn't automatically mean you are a Jedi. The Star Wars universe is bigger than just Siths and Jedi. I stand by what I said. Nothing Rey did or said in The Force Awakens points to her wanting to be a Jedi. Learning about her abilities? Totally. Using those abilities to pursue the Jedi belief system? Eh, not so much.

The Force did indeed awaken in Rey. The Jedi did not awaken in Rey.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Did you miss the part where Rey uses the Force to pull the lightsaber toward her, then proceeds to kick Kylo Ren's ass? I'd say that had something to do with it.

giphy.gif


Visual storytelling. That fight, the saber catch, that moment when they're locked and Kylo mentions the Force was the "awakening" for her, hence the title.

She "awakened" before that scene though, which is why Snoke mentioned it to Kylo who also felt it. :p
 

JB1981

Member
What does that actually have to do with her wanting to be a Jedi? Being a Jedi is a way of life. A belief structure. A mindset.

Rey pulling the Lightsaber was her accepting the fact that she can use the Force, not that she wants to become a Jedi. As Max Kanata shows, having an aptitude for the Force doesn't automatically mean you are a Jedi. The Star Wars universe is bigger than just Siths and Jedi. I stand by what I said. Nothing Rey did or said in The Force Awakens points to her wanting to be a Jedi. Learning about her abilities? Totally. Using those abilities to pursue the Jedi belief system? Eh, not so much.

Now that you mention it, does anyone know what Rey's desires are? What are her goals, motivations, dreams? Does she want to become a Jedi? Why is she even going to see Luke? She is "accepting her destiny?" What does this even mean? She is a reactive character and Ill defined other than being held back by her need for family
 

Fj0823

Member
Like most of the audience for Rogue One, I haven't seen The Clone Wars. So he was just Forrest Whittaker in a big suit with a weird voice who shoved brain slugs on former Imperial pilots for some reason. And someone who seemed way more interesting in the trailer than in the actual movie.

If anything from the Clone Wars is inconvenient to a future movie, especially a future mainline number, the story group will find an excuse for it, not shoot down an idea that's good for that movie.

Most of the audience in my cinema complained about the final scene of Iron Man 2 being just a Hammer on the ground.

Thor non canon confirmed.

Seriously those kinds of cameos and characters are for the fans, and to reward them for being invested in the EU and reassure you it all belongs together in the same story. The complete opposite of "not counting" and "ignoring" it. Like Marvel does

They embrace it, and use it when needed, it's certainly not an inconvenient to people like Pablo Hidalgo or the rest of the story group

It wouldn't surprise me to see a character like Hera Syndulla or Dr Aphra appear in a movie, throw a small reference to a previous adventure and then develop from there, like they did with Saw.

Obviously they are not going to require the viewer to know their TV adventures for the plot of the movie
 

jett

D-Member
Rogue One should have been a trilogy. First episode: Jyn's childhood, Galen/Lyra/Krennic friendship, Saw Gerrera stuff. Second episode: Cassian's introduction, Jedha stuff, Galen's rescue/assassination mission. Third episode: Battle of Scarif.

Good lawd. Someone actually wants three movies with these trashfire characters?
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Now that you mention it, does anyone know what Rey's desires are? What are her goals, motivations, dreams? Does she want to become a Jedi? Why is she even going to see Luke? She is "accepting her destiny?" What does this even mean? She is a reactive character and Ill defined other than being held back by her need for family

Her desire is to be reunited with her family. Why does it need to be more complicated than that? It's kind of a basic primal need of humans to want to feel like they belong to something. They left her when she was a very young girl, and I think most of us would want to know why if we were in her position. She's definitely very reactionary in TFA for the first half of the movie, but then she begins to take charge of her fate. She wasn't seeking out Luke for her. She was seeking out Luke because it was the last thing she wanted to do for the Resistance. She found companionship in Finn, Han, and Chewie, but that doesn't solve her desire to know the truth about her past. She can't move forward until she's able to put her past behind her. For her, that won't be possible until she learns the truth.

I don't know why Rey was chosen to go give Luke his loghtsaber instead of Leia, but perhaps Rey volunteered to bring Luke his lightsaber, because she thinks he knows something about her family, or just for guidance in how to use her new powers.

We get little pieces of her desires/interests through a lot of visual storytelling in the early parts of the movies. She seems to have an affinity for old machinery, and rebel pilots. She also shows an interest in old stories of Jedi and the Rebellion, but it seems like more of the type of interest we often have in our own history, like World War 2, or the Civil War. She watches the ships take off and land on Jakku, and she watches the families that come in and out of the port, so we know she's compassionate and wanting of a connection. Unkar is her only "close" relation, and he's a twat. How Rey grew up to have such empathy being raised by that dude is the real mystery, but I digress.

What makes Rey interesting to me is that we don't know what her "destiny" is. It isn't clear or spelled out for us. We know she has the capacity to do and be good, and be selfless, as she displayed in TFA, but she's also very much determined to be her own person, and has a hard, rebelliousness to her as well. Kylo Ren by contrast, has put himself in a box by trying to emulate his grandfather. He feels like he has no choice but to follow down this dark path, because of his lineage. His parents and Uncle so throughly embody the "good" and "just" and "heroic," but they deny that very human part of them that is dark, and imperfect.

Rey is "free" because she has no lineage she knows of, but feels torn between being free and living her life, and the new responsibility of wielding such Force potential. What she's ultimately going to do isn't written in stone. By the end of A New Hope, we knew Luke was going to go on to do heroic things. There was a big fanfare and ceremony to declare that he was a good dude doing good stuff. At the end of TFA, there's a big fat question mark for all of the characters involved: what's next? There's no clear direction the ending of TFA gave to us. We may think, because it shares a rhythm with the original trilogy that we know how it's going to play out, but we don't.

Rey certainly could become a Jedi, but that doesn't seem to be what she wants. She's too hung up on her past, and the whole entire cast of TFA was reactionary. I don't think it's something that solely on Rey's characterization.
 
This is exactly it.

I'm okay with giant planet destroying weapons.
I'm okay with space magic.
I'm okay with spirits of the dead communing with people that are still living.
I'm not okay with the Starkiller base laser splitting into more lasers WHAT THE FUCK JJ



Can't wait for the Force Awakens Special Edition where they add a shot of a giant prism floating in space.
 
What does that actually have to do with her wanting to be a Jedi? Being a Jedi is a way of life. A belief structure. A mindset.

Rey pulling the Lightsaber was her accepting the fact that she can use the Force, not that she wants to become a Jedi. As Maz Kanata shows, having an aptitude for the Force doesn't automatically mean you are a Jedi. The Star Wars universe is bigger than just Siths and Jedi. I stand by what I said. Nothing Rey did or said in The Force Awakens points to her wanting to be a Jedi. Learning about her abilities? Totally. Using those abilities to pursue the Jedi belief system? Eh, not so much.

The Force did indeed awaken in Rey. The Jedi did not awaken in Rey.

I agree with all this and it's why I believe Kylo is actually the last Jedi the title is referring to.
 

Surfinn

Member
Now that you mention it, does anyone know what Rey's desires are? What are her goals, motivations, dreams? Does she want to become a Jedi? Why is she even going to see Luke? She is "accepting her destiny?" What does this even mean? She is a reactive character and Ill defined other than being held back by her need for family
Well Luke doesn't wanna be a Jedi until his aunt and uncle get fried and he wants to feel connected to his dad. He originally wanted to go into the academy. Rey wants to embark on her journey to find a similar belonging.. To find her family. Maz, through the force, tells her to stop waiting and that her belonging lies ahead.. in finding Luke. This is literally told to you via the film's dialogue.

Oh and she discovered some of that belonging in BB-8 and wanted to help him because of it.. And because of interest in the resistance. Which is why she initially wanted to help Finn.

It's not outright stated in the film's dialogue like some of the other stuff, but Rey wants to fly a ship. She wants to get off Jakku and embark on an adventure.. If it weren't for her undying loyally to the people she's waiting for. This is shown through visual storytelling when she puts on the helmet and looks into the sky.. She sees a ship flying away and disappearing into the atmosphere. She also has rebel dolls and other various items in her makeshift home.

There's more to her than you think.
 

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
I can barely fathom this personally.

TFA is a wild ride through and through. Flawed, yeah, but I care more about it doing well with it's relatively small cast as opposed to Rogue One.

That movie had too many goddamn characters for the lack of screen time the meaningful ones get.
 
I enjoyed The Force Awakens for the most part but Rogue One is easily the best Star Wars film since Empire. Great cast strong direction, fun script. Beautifully shot and the effects were well designed. Also it has the best space battle since Jedi which was the previous high water mark for me.


Tudyk does the best robots.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Either this writer at BMD is a Gaffer or they have been lurking our thread. Ha


http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/04/25/for-the-last-time-rey-is-not-a-mary-sue

But what's more ridiculous about the jab is how it rests in comparison with Star Wars' two other central figures: Anakin and Luke Skywalker. Luke, like Rey, was introduced to us as a gifted pilot who is unusually strong in the force. In A New Hope, he fired the fatal blow to the Death Star with his eyes closed after a ghost helped him summon the force. And then there's Anakin, who, at 9 years old, builds C3PO, wins a Podrace against professional and seasoned racers, and successfully pilots a starfighter without prior knowledge of the ship.

Luke and Anakin's skills are mostly relayed to us. We known Luke is a good pilot because he says so. We know Anakin is a good pilot because his mom says so. We know Rey is a good pilot because we spend an intimate morning with her dismantling a Star Destroyer in a ship graveyard, wearing an x-wing helmet while she looks to the stars, and escaping her prison planet on the Millennium Falcon. We know she's a capable fighter because we see her defend herself with her staff several times before she wields the lightsaber that calls to her. She can summon the force to perform a mind trick because, moments before, she was tortured with a similar tactic and fought back. We witness her development through silent exploration and in real time. Yes, it's fast. Yes, it's convenient. But it's no more convenient than Han Solo showing up at the last second to help Luke save the day. It's no more convenient than C3PO and R2-D2 happening upon Luke's farm and uniting him with his father's best friend and his long-lost sister. It's no more convenient than anything in Star Wars, a children's story that literally exists to tell pulpy, destiny-driven fantasy stories about outer space.
Great piece. I might just take to copy/pasting this every time someone dribbles out the Mary Sue slop about Rey. It's as succinct yet thorough a dismantling as I've read so far.
 
The Force did indeed awaken in Rey. The Jedi did not awaken in Rey.

Yep, I didn't say anything about Jedi specifically. As it looks the idea of traditional Jedi is about to be tossed.

However, at the time of this film specifically, you don't think Rey discovering all this and doing this and that made her want to further explore it? Finding Luke is the next obvious step.

She "awakened" before that scene though, which is why Snoke mentioned it to Kylo who also felt it. :p

The entire film is about Rey coming to grips with her powers, and that scene was the climax of all that. It was the cathartic moment.
 
Did anyone else feel the Death Star was more foreboding in this one then the other Star Wars movies? It felt like the Death Star was just going around getting shit DONE this time. And the guy who played Krennic was probably my favorite thing in the whole film.
 

isamu

OMFG HOLY MOTHER OF MARY IN HEAVEN I CANT BELIEVE IT WTF WHERE ARE MY SEDATIVES AAAAHHH
Finally got around to watching Rogue One and loved it. Not sure how anyone could think TFA is a better film. Kylo Ren as a villian is laughable in my opinion. Also Rey and Finn suddenly pulling top tier Jedi lightsaber skills out of their ass at the last moment? Yeah, no.

Rogue One wasn't perfect but I was much more entertained. Bring on more stand alone SW films.
 

Lord Panda

The Sea is Always Right
TFA is pretty disappointing (par for course for an Abrams film really) and I found Rogue One the more enjoyable movie. There are still heaps of problems with the movie but not so grating as TFA.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Finally got around to watching Rogue One and loved it. Not sure how anyone could think TFA is a better film. Kylo Ren as a villian is laughable in my opinion. Also Rey and Finn suddenly pulling top tier Jedi lightsaber skills out of their ass at the last moment? Yeah, no.

Rogue One wasn't perfect but I was much more entertained. Bring on more stand alone SW films.

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