BlastProcessing
Member
If that was them showing restraint, I shudder to think what things will look like in a few more years.
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Rogue One vs. The Force Awakens | LFTS video essay.
- Thread starter seventynine
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If that was them showing restraint, I shudder to think what things will look like in a few more years.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
They showed restraint? So C3PO, R2D2, Ponda Baba, and Evazan all played integral roles in the plot? Jyn having a Storm Trooper doll as a kid made sense, when that would literally be like an American child in 1943 having a cute little stuffed Nazi soldier doll? The camera just had to zoom in on the blue milk sitting on the counter in young Jyn's home?
They were just as guilty of cheap fan service moments as TFA was. This back and forth between people in both camps trying to say one or the other movie was more egregious in this area is wasted effort.
Neither movie was above whoring their most-loved characters, locations, ships, and moments out to Star Wars fans because they knew that doing so would be enough to sell boatloads of tickets and merchandise. And it worked.
Arguing about which movie gave out the most handjobs just seems pointless, IMO.
Yeah, I was especially touched when that cardboard cutout of the funny joke robot was killed. And then those two cardboard cutouts who died hugging on the beach instead of trying to run. Sad stuff.
Side note: Anyone else notice that most of the deaths in Rogue One were completely unnecessary and usually happened because the character just decided it was time to die?
Jyn's mom didn't need to reveal herself to those soldiers. Did she think she'd convince them to not take her husband? All she did was increase the odds of herself, her husband, and/or her child being killed.
Saw didn't have to die. He just decided for no reason that he was done running and resigned himself to his fate.
Rook died because he forgot how to run after seeing a grenade land in front of him. He just stared at it, resigned to his fate.
Baze died because he saw their ship explode in the distance and because his friend died a moment earlier. So instead of working to further the mission, he resigned himself to his fate and walked toward a group of armed soldiers until one shot him and another exploded him. Also, he didn't even try to run from the grenade that took his life.
Which brings us back to Jyn and Tonic, or whatever his name was. Hugging on the beach instead of running for a ship, running for cover, or digging a fucking hole to dive into and pray?
What is it with characters in this movie deciding to not even attempt to escape from death?
Rogue One is loaded with unearned attempts at heart-string tugs.
Waiting patiently for "TFA too!" comments, because we all know that when a thing can't be defended on its own merits, the next best thing is to tear something else down.
Edit: Removed some smug shit on my part thanks to Mr. Roberts pointing it out. Apologies.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Edit: Double post. Sorry.
I mean, if you like it, you like it, but for story purposes it's there for fan service.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Jesus Christ, Plop. You sound like John Doe in the back of the car in Seven.
"Only in a world this sick..."
Seriously, the way you guys percieve and discuss "fanservice" is kinda fuckin weird, sometimes. A lot of the time. It's so disdainful.
And this is just kinda fucked up.
"These people didn't really emotionally connect. They're just easily tricked, is all!"
brandonh83
Banned
I liked seeing Krennic having scenes with Vader, basically a running theme is that the entirety of the Empire is terrified of him and they're only trying as hard to do things as they do because Vader will kill them if they fuck up. Krennic's arc in the film is basically trying to impress his higher-ups and frequently failing to do so-- and I think the Mustafar scene contributed to that greatly. It shows how much pressure is on Krennic and why he's so hellbent to get this shit done.
But of course since Vader is in the scene and everyone likes Vader, it's just fan service, despite working perfectly fine in context.
Both films are pretty poorly written. One just inhabits familiar territory, while the other fails at establishing a new one, which is why I ended up liking Rogue One more. TFA feels completely forgettable because they reused so many familiar story elements. I think it will ultimately be viewed as a mistake or a lost opportunity. The characters don't really advance and it feels like a setup for Last Jedi. Maybe that's the point of a 'soft reboot' but I hoped for more from a Star Wars film.
Intheflorsh
Banned
The Rogue One vs. TFA debate is reaching Bernie vs. Hillary levels of insufferable.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The guy in the video considers the Vader scene well placed and a positive contribution to the film's storytelling, doesn't he?
I mean, not to say people need to agree with the guy's opinions on screenwriting (which are buttressed by a lot of Syd Mead, as it turns out) but he is making the case that the sequence does work on its own.
But that "fanservice" purity test fails it out for certain segments of the fanbase, I guess.
Hah, shit, speaking of "purity tests."
I mean, not to say people need to agree with the guy's opinions on screenwriting (which are buttressed by a lot of Syd Mead, as it turns out) but he is making the case that the sequence does work on its own.
But that "fanservice" purity test fails it out for certain segments of the fanbase, I guess.
Hah, shit, speaking of "purity tests."
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
I guess maybe I worded that poorly.
If they feel that connection, I get it. But the moments just felt unearned. The deaths were obviously put there to elicit a reaction, and if that's what happened, mission accomplished. But it all felt like the type of thing slapped into the script to whittle down the character numbers until the last two (Jyn and the guy who's name I can never remember) were left.
But it's all just my opinion. And I'm a shithead, so who cares what I think?
brandonh83
Banned
Oh please.
They do advance. Rey, Finn, Kylo, and Han are in all much different places than they were at the beginning. Han... maybe more so than the others, literally.
The disdain people seem to have for ANY reference towards previous entries in the Star Wars films is indeed starting to feel weird. It's like everyone saw the Nerdwriter video on intertextuality and agreed that the greatest crime a Star Wars movie can commit is referencing Star Wars.
Well, frankly I think Krennic was pointless in the movie. I get what they were trying to do—"let's show people the true horrors of the empire—middle management!" and they wanted to have a character with a connection to Rebel Girl's dad. But in an ideal world where we actually had Peter Cushing on set and weren't spending a lot of money to make a uncanney version of him, you could have folded everything into Cushing's character and been better off. The only real advantage Krennic has for the filmmakers is they can have an evil dude they can off without messing up the canon.
As for the video essay, I feel like it's "THIS IS WHAT I LEARNED IN SCREENWRITING, IT IS LAW" applied liberally. Yeah, "show don't tell" is a good rule of thumb, but stuff like having active versus reactive protagonists isn't a question of objectively better storytelling devices. Despite his desire to get off Tatooine Luke spends a lot of time just reacting to things and following the desires of people around him in the first movie; he doesn't really break that mold until Empire, but that's not an issue for the arc Star Wars is going for.
I don't necessarily disagree. I find both of the movies entertaining but I have no burning desire to watch them again. I appreciate Rogue One as extending past the classic Star Wars formula even as it hewed unnecessarily to its trappings. They seem to run afoul of the same issues as the Star Trek reboots (which I'm personally more invested in as a fan and still find really annoying in terms of dumb fan service while treating the characters really badly.)
It's only a problem if you crutch on it so hard that you forget to make a movie that stands on its own.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You're not a shithead, I just thought the shit went over the top there for a sec. I mean, functionally, that is what's happening in the script. But that function doesn't negate all the other things built on top of it, anymore than a person is just a bunch of bones in a meat bag. I'm not saying it can (or should) work for everybody, and I definitely understand why people aren't connecting with those characters (I myself believe TFA is a better written film, and possesses more interesting/fully developed characters), I'm just saying that maybe the people it did work for weren't necessarily emotionally swindled into it like easy marks on a European Vacation or whatever.
shiftplusone
Member
search: "Rouge"
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dammit GAF
Yeah it's gotten wild. sure, RLM pointed out how terrible it was in the prequels and how it can do an awful thing where the more familiar the world the smaller it feels. The prequels were full of that stuff.
But not every reference towards other star wars films is Greedo in TPM
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dammit GAF
Yeah it's gotten wild. sure, RLM pointed out how terrible it was in the prequels and how it can do an awful thing where the more familiar the world the smaller it feels. The prequels were full of that stuff.
But not every reference towards other star wars films is Greedo in TPM
gutter_trash
Banned
TFA character dev >>>>>>>> R1 character dev
Totally agree about the part in Rogue One where suddenly everyone was supporting Jyn after the council meeting. It's like there was a gap there after they just had a tense argument on the ship. Made no sense. The first half of the movie was totally a mess. The reshoots and changes to the script totally messed it up.
brandonh83
Banned
You're free to think that, hell I ain't here to tell you how to feel about characters in a movie! That being said, he was the central antagonist in this particular movie, and I was just trying to explain why I think that scene is more than just "fan service." I also don't think they should have to worry about having established characters and elements across these movies because some people on the internet might argue that it's fan service. These movies are, largely, just meant to be fun and having scenes/characters/elements that evoke positive emotions in people that like this sort of thing isn't exactly a tragedy or filmmaking flaw.
Like with people that complain that Episode VII has too much fan service-- to me, again, it's simple continuity. There are nods and callbacks out of fun, sure, but not everything is there for nostalgia pandering. If they did this without anything carried over from IV-VI, to me it wouldn't feel right unless they couldn't, and it's an absolute miracle to me to this day that they were able to secure Hamill, Fisher and Ford for it. And they managed to close one character up completely in a much better way, IMO, than the previous episode. We'll see what they do with Leia considering what happened with Carrie, but I think we're lucky that they were able to do what they did and it seems like Hamill is in pretty decent health and spirits still.
Maybe I'm just too busy counting my blessings than worrying about message board definitions of fan service or nostalgia pandering or what kind of mandatory laws should be in place when these fine storytellers are writing their Star Wars.
It's some weird shit, dude.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Personally, I like a little referencing. It makes sense in a fictional universe to link all the pieces together. But both of the newest movies crossed a line at some point, in my opinion.
With TFA it was right around when Finn bumped into the Dejarik table. Showing it was fine. Then it turns on and I groaned. Then Finn picks up Luke's laser training ball and I rolled my eyes so hard I could see my brain.
With RO, it was when Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan showed up. Of all the people on that entire planet, our heroes happen to run in to two of the most recognizable bit characters in Star Wars history? And then they show C3PO and R2D2 for literally no reason. They didn't even interact with anyone! C3PO just stood there, remembering the numerous chances he had to smother Anakin in his sleep.
Astral Dog
Member
It looked so cool though.from Vader tube to the chocking. Though i agree the white guy almost ruined the scene just by looking at the end that was not needed
theCalamity
Member
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
No, you're absolutely right. I just sometimes get so involved in making a point that I forget that these words are directed at other people who are capable of complex thought and emotion. I hammer out whatever comes to mind and hit send, and don't think twice until someone points out where I may have crossed a line and come across as condescending, when really it's just me being blinded by passion.
So I appreciate it. I need the reminder sometimes.
It's my favorite typo
Oh god.
If you made that, I love you.
Hell, I love you just for showing it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Great, now you sound like my therapist.
chrisPjelly
Member
The same way I felt 100%. They just had to make the characters likeable enough, and they blew it in SPECTACULAR fashion. Just misses it totally.
of course they do! the opening of Return of the Jedi is one of the best things in the series and from a plot perspective it's kind of a nightmare.
brandonh83
Banned
This stuff is just so completely innocent to me. VII was about infusing the old with the new, and for me it's cool to think that when I see that stuff in IV, that... 30 years down the line, however long it is, that a new character will bump into it. That and it's like... seconds of screentime in a 2 hour movie. If something like that makes your eyes roll, I dunno what to tell you. It was about these new characters becoming a part of this huge legacy. I love the fact that for example, despite Han dying, that the Falcon still has Chewbacca, Rey, etc. It's passing the torch to a new generation.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I'm interested to see if anyone actually disagrees with this and what their arguments are for that.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'd pull a few greater-than symbols out of there but I don't disagree.
But I also think (and the video makes mention of this) that the "men on a mission" type of movie that Rogue One is would have probably put the film at a deficit in a direct comparison even if they hadn't fumbled the first 20-30 minutes.
Basically - TFA nailed the characters more than anything else in the movie, which was really important, and the film contained room to get those characters right. If Rogue One had gotten one or two more passes at it, and fulfilled their characters' potential much more fullythey still would have come up short.
I think it comes down to the difference between having JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan writing the screenplay (and having Abrams translating the screenplay to live action himself) and having Whitta/Weitz turn in a script and having Gilroy/McQuarrie giving it once-and-twice overs before handing it to Gareth Edwards.
I feel like they tried to lean into Edwards strengths as much as possible, and that almost guaranteed the character work wasn't going to be as strong as TFA's.
I do think, that all said, that it's better than anything in Menace, Clones, or Sith.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
I agree it's mostly harmless. It just felt like too much after a certain point. I'm in the "less is more" camp for callbacks and nods.
I have a good friend who, when he says something witty or funny, repeats what he said and then goes on to explain why he said it. It's like, "Dude, you stuck the landing. Shut the fuck up."
I feel the same way here. Show me the Falcon and Dejarik table, TFA. Show me the blue milk, Rogue One. But when you come back around and show me all this other stuff too, it pulls me out of the movie and reminds me I'm watching a product.
But it certainly doesn't destroy either movie.
I agree with everything you said.
But that last sentence: I feel like Edwards would have had to actively try to sabotage his own movie to make it as bad as the prequels (or at least TPM and AOTC).
I engage in hyperbole a lot, but not here. Those movies are just garbage with almost no redeeming value, as far as I'm concerned.
Granted, it's not like I'm breaking new ground criticizing the prequels, but still. Rogue One, troubled production and all, had almost no chance of being that bad.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
I don't know what you mean exactly by helping a terrible plot. But, good characters can absolutely overcome a bad plot. TONS of movies get by on the characters. Outside of Force Awakens doing just that, the vast majority of comic book movies do that as well.
That's why the complaints of Marvel movies being too samey don't mean much to most people. They just want to see the characters they love. I mean, Guardians of the Galaxy was nearly plotless, and I still loved the movie. The plot doesn't have to be great, the characters do.
It's certainly not exclusive to comic movies either. Fast 8 just made a billion dollars. No one gives a fuck about the plots in those movies. They want to see The Rock and Vin Diesel do crazy shit.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Some of my favorite movies are basically plotless wanderings where the whole point is to spend time with great actors digging into amazing characters.
In Bruges, for example.
Big Lebowski has so much plot that it basically stops mattering at all by the 35min mark.
The Before Trilogy is a really good example.
Honestly, plot is usually one of the the least interesting things about a good movie. Not to say there can't be great movies that are all about the plotting. But people pay a lot of attention to that single aspect of the film to the detriment of all the other elements that are often way more important to the story and its telling.
It's always more about the how and the why than the what. And all plot is really concerned with is the what.
In Bruges, for example.
Big Lebowski has so much plot that it basically stops mattering at all by the 35min mark.
The Before Trilogy is a really good example.
Honestly, plot is usually one of the the least interesting things about a good movie. Not to say there can't be great movies that are all about the plotting. But people pay a lot of attention to that single aspect of the film to the detriment of all the other elements that are often way more important to the story and its telling.
It's always more about the how and the why than the what. And all plot is really concerned with is the what.
I dont know if I disagree with it, but developed or not TFA had lame characters. I dont know what kind of trope Rey is(I dont mean mary sue) but shes always so happy and hopeful. Bleh. At least luke had some kind of family riddle about his father to drive him. I still have no clue what drives Rey.
Rogue Ones characters were more 'real.'
brandonh83
Banned
I get your reasoning, but I also feel like I'm in that same camp. I think that if the story were relying on the callbacks, rather than having anything new or interesting to say, that it would be more of a problem for me. While VII does have callbacks and repeated elements, I thought it was mostly in a cohesive way that made everything feel more related/connected. I didn't feel like they had these things as a smokescreen to cover up a lack of originality. Kylo Ren for example is wholly different from Vader and immediately has interaction with Rey, our new protagonist. Vader by comparison is basically a cool looking scary dude that has nothing to do personally with Luke until the next episode.
And no, I ain't downplaying Vader, fuck that, Vader is awesome in IV. I'm just pointing out crucial differences between these films, and I could keep going. Some callbacks and references don't make me feel like I'm seeing the exact same thing again. They make the world feel coherent, the story connected. Nothing more.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
what
Where
brandonh83
Banned
Did you... I mean, not watch the movie? What drives Rey is... a family riddle. Man...
Okay real talk, I gotta ask. I think it's okay to ask this at this point. Did some of you guys-- be honest-- watch The Force Awakens?
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
That she knows of? As far as I can tell she really wanted to get off that planet, maybe find her family. At one point she thought about taking a job offer from Han Solo. How that translates to saving the universe I dont really know. And now apparently shes a Jedi and she reallly wants to see Luke now.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Because she wasn't interested in saving the universe. When confronted by the fact that she's Force sensitive by Maz, she ran. She had no interest in that.
Once she left Jakku, Rey's only interest was in returning. She made this clear several times, until Maz told her that the people she was hoping would come back aren't coming back.
So she really, really wanted to get back. Which is the exact opposite of what you claim. So really, did you watch the movie?
Not being smarmy, but this is a point the movie hammered home repeatedly. She refused to leave Jakku until her family returned and only finally left because she was being chased. And even then, she made it clear she had to go back.
theCalamity
Member
Just a bit of a tangent, that attention is probably why so many people are so concerned with spoilers. People place way to much importance on plot than it should have. Like some people deride Mad Max because it barely has any story. Its plot boils down to them driving to a place and then driving back. But plot is just a roadmap. How it affects the characters and their response to it is what is interesting to me.
I think that unless one of these new films just drops the ball entirely, people are putting entirely too much weight on the shoulders of these screenwriters. They're just fun movies that call back to other fun movies.
The video essay was good though. He had some good points, but don't overthink it or you'll enjoy it less.
The video essay was good though. He had some good points, but don't overthink it or you'll enjoy it less.
brandonh83
Banned
Essentially Rey went from waiting years for someone to find her on Jakku, to learning of a much greater destiny possibly in store for her. After the events of the film, the Force "awakening" in her, the lightsaber calling to her, defeating Kylo Ren in battle, and gaining a direction on where Luke is, she realized that there's a lot more to her than just waiting around on a junk planet for someone to come scoop her up. She finally takes her life into her own hands, and it happens to relate to finding Luke and figuring out her connection to the Force, which she doesn't fully realize until toward the end.
She doesn't "randomly" want to find Luke or be a Jedi. Across the film she does things that she doesn't understand at all so it goes from her initial problem-- finding her family-- to accepting the fact that a potential greater destiny lies ahead. When she hands the lightsaber to Luke, to me her expression is saying "is this what I'm supposed to be doing?" By the end of the film she has questions about herself, not her family, and she logically deducts that finding Luke is about the best way to go about learning more about all this shit.
Truth. If I'm being honest, the first time I saw Fury Road, I mean I liked it but I wasn't super smitten by it because I didn't feel like much happened in the plot. But then upon repeat viewings I started getting into the characters more.
Now I think it's one of the best movies ever.
edit: you know I kind of like this thread, people are actually (for the most part) enticing more intellectual debate even if it's the same bullshit at the core.
Meh, basically the same thing.
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