Support NeoGAF

[DieH@rd]

Tom Warren (WinRumors Guy) posted it at the verge,
http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/16/3090944/microsoft-xbox-720-kinect-2-kinect-glasses-doc-leak-rumor

He said its inline with other documents that come out of microsoft (styling etc).

This is real, guys.

Verge sourced the news from NEOGAF.


My take:
This could be real, as a very old internal document that was made in a rush. 120W system that sells for 299$ is more than feasible, 2 APU and 1 BC CPU is weird [probably will be discontinued after few years], ddr4 is most likely a placeholder, projectglass/kinect2/ar glasses/cloudcomputing fit in the picture of future gaming.

 

[maquiladora]

Genuine Microsoft document confirmed.

 

[painful fart]

Verge sourced the news from NEOGAF.


My take:
This could be real, as a very old internal document that was made in a rush. 120W system that sells for 299$ is more than feasible, 2 APU and 1 BC CPU is weird [probably will be discontinued after few years], ddr4 is most likely a placeholder, projectglass/kinect2/ar glasses/cloudcomputing fit in the picture of future gaming.

Pretty much my take as well. If this turns out to be fake later on, hats off to the guy who did it.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Did you not catch that guy a few weeks ago who had pretended to be Japanense for months and months on this forum, only to account suicide after he was caught. Believe.

lol

 

[AngryMoth]

Thing that gives me the pause is them thinking they can hit $299 at launch. Allowing $100 for "Kinect V2" they would be building the box for $199. 4GB of memory? Multiple CPUs? No way in hell. Seems like an impressive fake. Actually I don't know, those drawings lend it a lot of credibility and it is from 2 years ago so who knows.

Can you imagine if this suprise event they're holding in LA on Monday is to reveal "Project Fortaleza" or more likely XTV and inadvertantly corroborates this? Holy shit :lol

 

[manzo]

Genuine Microsoft document confirmed.

Yeah, the whole document basically smelled like nickel&diming your userbase. How to sell more DLC, how to get them to pay for more subscriptions etc.

 

[nasos_333]

C'm on, you're now grasping at straws to discredit the document. Do you really think a faker took the info from the Nukezilla reports and only then created a 56 page document, including lots of drawings in the exact same style as the ones shown on Nukezilla? The guy must be the Van Meegeren of hoaxers.

Nukzila news are reported in 2012, how do we even know it is a 2010 document ?

 

[kruis]

Nukzila news are reported in 2012, how do we even know it is a 2010 document ?

It's written from a pre Holiday 2010 perspective. See page 7. There's also a date (Sep 24), so it looks like this document was discussed on a meeting almost two years ago.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Thing that gives me the pause is them thinking they can hit $299 at launch. Allowing $100 for "Kinect V2" they would be building the box for $199. 4GB of memory? Multiple CPUs? No way in hell. Seems like an impressive fake

From my understanding it does not say that there are indeed multiple CPUs inside the Xbox 720, it reads like this is more of a suggestion/a theoretical note for what is necessary to achieve backwards compatibility. How the engineers will build this in the end is probably another story.

 

[nasos_333]

It's written from a pre Holiday 2010 perspective. See page 7. There's also a date (Sep 24), so it looks like this document was discussed on a meeting almost two years ago.

If that is true, then is totally meaningless anyway

But TBH, stating a plan for a 299$ xbox 720 + Kinect 2.0 is stretching it, it just feels fake

The 2 APUs and a sum of 9 CPU cores and 2 GPUs is also a bit too much to believe i guess

Then there is the 4 Kinect players thing, unless the guy that made this had zero knowledge about Kinect, this is probably fake

 

[mysocksarepink]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/92821757/XBox-720-9-24-Checkpoint-Draft-1

Credit to jeff_rigby.

A portion of this was came out awhile back.

really? no juicy info in op!?

 

[kruis]

If that is true, then is totally meaningless anyway

But TBH, stating a plan for a 299$ xbox 720 + Kinect 2.0 is stretching it, it just feels fake

It can be done, since the Xbox 720 is not supposed to be a huge step up from the current model. It's not a generational leap like the difference between the first Xbox and 360, it's only halfway there. As you may have noticed, MS is not exactly focused on hardcore gamers anymore. Even the current Xbox 360 is being primarily positioned as a device for casual gamers (Kinect) and multimedia experiences (streaming media). The gaming part is the least interesting bit from MS' perspective. This document fits right in with that approach.

 

[TheOddOne]

It can be done, since the Xbox 720 is not supposed to be a huge step up from the current model. It's not a generational leap like the difference between the first Xbox and 360, it's only halfway there. As you may have noticed, MS is not exactly focused on hardcore gamers anymore. Even the current Xbox 360 is being primarily positioned as a device for casual gamers (Kinect) and multimedia experiences (streaming media). The gaming part is the least interesting bit from MS' perspective. This document fits right in with that approach.

It was never actually only focused on hardcore gamers, it just failed getting a broader audience earlier in the generation. Even use to be mocked as being something only for frat guys.

It's still an opinion, that they don't focus on "core" gamers. Everything, if done proper research, show that they are still focused on them -- contrary to what people want to believe on the internet.

 

[nasos_333]

It can be done, since the Xbox 720 is not supposed to be a huge step up from the current model. It's not a generational leap like the difference between the first Xbox and 360, it's only halfway there. As you may have noticed, MS is not exactly focused on hardcore gamers anymore. Even the current Xbox 360 is being primarily positioned as a device for casual gamers (Kinect) and multimedia experiences (streaming media). The gaming part is the least interesting from MS' perspective. This document fits right in with that approach.

How do you know all that ?

MS seems more focused on core games then ever before

They have sequels to every big core game coming, Halo, Fable, Gears, Forza etc

360 just got Witcher 2 and is getting Dawnguard exclusively for 30 days

They even have xbox 1 games like Orta revisited in Crimson Dragon

Ryse from Crytek could be big too

So, how do we know xbox 720 is going to be only a small step above 360 for sure ?

Why would MS go for a certain fail route, when 360 route was the one that worked for them ?

I cant believe they are not aware that one of the main reasons 360 lasted, remained relevant and got so big was the super powered hardare

4GB ram, 9 CPU cores and 2 GPUs seems like a huge step above TBH right there and that was a 2 years old doc if it is not a fake

The problem is that getting such a powerfull system with so many cores and Kinect 2.0 for 299$ which is same as 360+Kinect is not happening

 

[M°°nblade]

Holy fuck shit megaton leak.

X720: (target is 8x X360)
- blu-ray drive
- USB 3
- >32 MB edram
- 4GB DDR4 RAM
- DX11.1 GPU
- $300 launchprice
- x360 cores for BC
- 10 year life cycle
- Kinect 2
- 120 + 50 Watt

Also, MS expects PS4 to arrive end 2013 on their roadmap.

 

[DieH@rd]

Im counting on Sony to remain the "Ferrari" of the videogame business. MS is obviously not aiming for big jump with its 120W sucessor to x360. It will have power to create x5 visuals, but todays tech can produce so much more in the 200W power envelope.

I want PS4 to be crazily fast, but stil made from easy to code hw. Give us good AMD APU, one big dedicated GPU, 4gb of gddr5 ram, and then task all of your 15 1st party studios to create good content.

 

[nasos_333]

I wonder how they expect a 10 year life cycle, if the price is 200$ lower than xbox 360 at lauch

Maybe they meant a 10 month cycle ?

 

[szaromir]

But if it's real, where is Xbox 361 and other news they allegedly have slated for 2012? Unless the whole schedule's been pushed one year back, which I suppose could be driven by developers' wishes for beefier hardware and Nintendo's relatively weak vision. Still, I don't see them waiting til 2014.

Back in 2010 they might have thought they'd get a 32nm 360 but the dates slipped?

 

[M°°nblade]

Im counting on Sony to remain the "Ferrari" of the videogame business.

I want PS4 to be crazily fast, but stil made from easy to code hw. Give us good AMD APU, one big dedicated GPU, 4gb of gddr5 ram, and then task all of your 15 1st party studios to create good content.

I would like to see an even more powerful console like this but would this be smart for sony?

Are better looking first party games worth either losses or a $100 higher pricetag?

 

[Saiyar]

Wow, that looks like way too much work to be fake. Reading...

So many saying its fake. Who the hell other than some company or paid firm would put so much effort into something like that? I really doubt a single individual would sit and make all that shit up.

lol at the amount of work that went into this if its a fake..

Seems like a heck of a lot of work if fake.

If fake, the amount of work that went into creating this goes far beyond a simple photoshop into "crazy nutter" territory.

After Warhammer 40k pancake edition I will never doubt the amount of effort that a person can put into a hoax.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

At first I thought "56 pages? this must be real. Who'd bother spending that much time on a fake?" Then I remembered that this gas the internet we're talking about. The core specs seem plausible though.

 

[Speedymanic]

It can be done, since the Xbox 720 is not supposed to be a huge step up from the current model. It's not a generational leap like the difference between the first Xbox and 360, it's only halfway there. As you may have noticed, MS is not exactly focused on hardcore gamers anymore. Even the current Xbox 360 is being primarily positioned as a device for casual gamers (Kinect) and multimedia experiences (streaming media). The gaming part is the least interesting bit from MS' perspective. This document fits right in with that approach.

Hardcore gamers don't exist. They never existed. What did exist were people who were dedicated to gaming, they loved gaming and still do and all companies are still providing games for those gamers.

But as with any company, you either diversify or die, which is why....

Sony are going after dat casual market with games like All stars and other games directed towards the casual market. And aiming for the children's market with that shite book of theirs.

Ninty, well it's apparent which market they'll be aiming for. Unfortunately, they've forcused too much on this market which has left their other market lacking.

MS hit a sweet spot with Kinect and they'll continue down that path but that doesn't mean they've abandoned the market that helped to make them a success in the beginning.

Just look at this years releases so far, MS have released more games that appeal to long term gamers than Sony.

So yeah. MS have totes abandoned their core market. OH NOES!

...

:/

 

[AngryMoth]

There's some real gold in the comments on theverge story, Nintendo/Sony are doomed etc

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

Aside from this not written in language consistent with internal memorandum, in all my years preparing tax documentation for video game console manufacturers, I never saw a single internal document make a reference to numbered generations. In fact, I used it once and was explicitly told that the industry norm is to use terms such as "previous" "current" and "next" as descriptors, not numbers.

 

[nasos_333]

Just look at this years releases so far, MS have released more games that appeal to long term gamers than Sony.

So yeah. MS have totes abandoned their core market. OH NOES!

...

:/

Exactly

I just finished Withcer 2 and i cant see anything casual about it

It is funny that the myth of 360 going casual is still around, that was the result of a single dry year start in 2011 and nothing more, they just needed to kickstart Kinect and get some casual crowd, which is why they had a few months focus on casual games

Now their full focus is on core games, be Kinect, pad or hybrid ones makes no difference

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I wish they weren't so gung ho about Kinect.

 

[Mistle]

Wow, I browsed a few pages and scoffed at the fake-ness, but now it's apparently in line with other Microsoft documents...

It looks so amateur, haha. Crazy if real

 

[ekim]

Old document is old. This seems to me like an idea how the 720 should be ideally. This doesn't confirm anything.

 

[Dabanton]

Hardcore gamers don't exist. They never existed. What did exist were people who were dedicated to gaming, they loved gaming and still do and all companies are still providing games for those gamers.

But as with any company, you either diversify or die, which is why....

Sony are going after dat casual market with games like All stars and other games directed towards the casual market. And aiming for the children's market with that shite book of theirs.

Ninty, well it's apparent which market they'll be aiming for. Unfortunately, they've forcused too much on this market which has left their other market lacking.

MS hit a sweet spot with Kinect and they'll continue down that path but that doesn't mean they've abandoned the market that helped to make them a success in the beginning.

Just look at this years releases so far, MS have released more games that appeal to long term gamers than Sony.

So yeah. MS have totes abandoned their core market. OH NOES!

...

:/

Pretty much spot on. I cringe when I see people who should know better saying MS has abandoned the 'core' gamer looking at the games I've brought for my 360 just this year says no they have not.

If MS has abandoned them so have Sony as they have practically the same aims and games.

 

[kruis]

Hardcore gamers don't exist. They never existed. What did exist were people who were dedicated to gaming, they loved gaming and still do and all companies are still providing games for those gamers.

But as with any company, you either diversify or die, which is why....

Sony are going after dat casual market with games like All stars and other games directed towards the casual market. And aiming for the children's market with that shite book of theirs.

Ninty, well it's apparent which market they'll be aiming for. Unfortunately, they've forcused too much on this market which has left their other market lacking.

MS hit a sweet spot with Kinect and they'll continue down that path but that doesn't mean they've abandoned the market that helped to make them a success in the beginning.

Just look at this years releases so far, MS have released more games that appeal to long term gamers than Sony.

So yeah. MS have totes abandoned their core market. OH NOES!

...

:/

MS won't abandon core gamers, but it's not their no 1 priority since they believe they've already got that covered with a small number of best selling first party games (Halo, Gears, Forza and Fable) plus every big 3rd party game out there (COD, Skyrim, Fallout, FF, RE, Tomb Raider, etc etc etc. There's no need to invest in a huge first party games portfolio, because third party publishers are already doing a terrific job of creating an AAA+ games library for their platform. Those core gamers are already taken care of. That's why their current mission is finding new markets like casual gamers, families, sports fans, etc.

 

[Ghost]

A lot of this stuff seems no brainer from a planning point of view, will be interesting to see how much of it they can actually pull off. I imagine there's parts of this plan that were in a similar document before the 360 launched that were just never possible.

Also interesting that they basically see the onlive model taking over by 2015, that's only 2 years into their next cycle.

 

[nasos_333]

MS won't abandon core gamers, but it's not their no 1 priority since they believe they've already got that covered with a small number of best selling first party games (Halo, Gears, Forza and Fable) plus every big 3rd party game out there (COD, Skyrim, Fallout, FF, RE, Tomb Raider, etc etc etc. There's no need to invest in a huge first party games portfolio, because third party publishers are already doing a terrific job of creating an AAA+ games library for their platform. Those core gamers are already taken care of. That's why their current mission is finding new markets like casual gamers, families, sports fans, etc.

It is as much a factor as it ever was though

And actually they have more core games coming than ever in such a short period of time

I dont know what you have in mind when you say the core are not a priority, since by the games coming looks like it is 99.9% of their focus

If they dont come up with an as impressive as 360 gaming system for core gamers next gen, they will loose them all, so why would they ever do that ?

It is not like all casual games sell like crazy either, they only have to loose and maybe loose any advantage by coming up with a weak system

 

[iamshadowlark]

I honestly don't know what to make of this. Alot of stuff seems plausible or likely even, but some stuff is suspect.

 

[Voidguts]

After Warhammer 40k pancake edition I will never doubt the amount of effort that a person can put into a hoax.

can you elaborate? I.. think I missed that one..

 

[TheOddOne]

MS won't abandon core gamers, but it's not their no 1 priority since they believe they've already got that covered with a small number of best selling first party games (Halo, Gears, Forza and Fable) plus every big 3rd party game out there (COD, Skyrim, Fallout, FF, RE, Tomb Raider, etc etc etc. There's no need to invest in a huge first party games portfolio, because third party publishers are already doing a terrific job of creating an AAA+ games library for their platform. Those core gamers are already taken care of. That's why their current mission is finding new markets like casual gamers, families, sports fans, etc.

Go look up their job listings, they are investing hugely in broadening their "core" library.

 

[Xun]

Not as powerful as I was expecting, but this is from 2 years ago, and cloud gaming would render that argument (mostly) obsolete.

 

[Saiyar]

can you elaborate? I.. think I missed that one..

In January this year a rulebook for 40k 6th edition appeared online. It was over 100 pages long with proper formatting and fonts. It turned out to be fake in the end but it was so well done it fooled everyone.

 

[Biggzy]

This here strongly indicates cloud gaming: "access to the latest and greatest experiences without upgrading hardware."

 

[Biggzy]

Although, this will be 3 years old by the time the next Xbox will be out - we think - so I wouldn't be surprised if the specs significantly change.

 

[2MF]

Wii U is next-gen confirmed!

 

[dragonelite]

Kinda dissapointed in the projected specs 6~8 times.
had hoped on more 8~10 times 360.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

It was never actually only focused on hardcore gamers, it just failed getting a broader audience earlier in the generation. Even use to be mocked as being something only for frat guys.

It's still an opinion, that they don't focus on "core" gamers. Everything, if done proper research, show that they are still focused on them -- contrary to what people want to believe on the internet.

Microsoft and Sony are absolutely no different in what audiences they're going after, it's just that sometimes one of them is more successful with the wider audience than the other (Sony in the last generation, Microsoft in this one), and once the cards are dealt, you focus on the audience you managed to capture. Then the next generation comes around and you do your best to capture everyone once again.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Exactly

I just finished Withcer 2 and i cant see anything casual about it

It is funny that the myth of 360 going casual is still around, that was the result of a single dry year start in 2011 and nothing more, they just needed to kickstart Kinect and get some casual crowd, which is why they had a few months focus on casual games

Now their full focus is on core games, be Kinect, pad or hybrid ones makes no difference

Witcher 2 was published by MS? Pretty sure it is published by Namco and could theoretically come out on PS3.

 

[jeff_rigby]

After reading the whole thing through while keeping in mind that this quite possibly is a fake, the Smartglass propositions made me believe the docs.

I guess the only way to know if this is real; if this doc would've leaked way before E3 (not counting NukeZilla), then I'd say this is real. Now that Smartglass is known to everyone, there is a high probability that this is fake.

Interesting document nonetheless. It was a nice read while drinking my Saturday-morning coffee, fake or not.

This is where the setting started to fall apart for me. Unless there really WAS a "361" coming but got cancelled?

Remember this is a 2 year old draft on the business reasons for a 720 release compiled for presentation by most likely non-technical office help.

As to XTV not appearing yet, it needs to wait for Webkit2 support in enough CE TVs and blu-ray players to make it economically practical (chicken and egg). That's been delayed and should be available before Sept of this year.

Why do we need a next gen Xbox in 2013?

Xbox 360 Will not support full range of XTV platform scenarios (e.g. 1080p video + Video Chat +HTML5 Apps)

•Lacking modern entertainment capabilities (e.g. Blu-ray, Native 3D output, 2x1080p in/out)

• Can’t run “always on”/low power states
• Can’t run multiplexed or concurrent applications and services

Xbox 361 cheaper Xbox360 with more features and will support XTV:

Found it page 50, more there that's interesting:

HDMI pass-thru (IF the PS3 had this then Google TV would be possible)
HD-Homerun => access to a Homerun Digital TV tuner? This is just software in Xbox if you have the tuner connected to Cable or Antenna as well as your home network.
XTV with full 1080P and overlays (Not possible on Xbox 360)

More is implied here, HDMI pass-through implies always on low power modes, Xbox361 as the only input to your TV with it controlling your picture with overlays, windows with information from the web and more.

Xbox 361 to be low cost is going to be an all in one 32nm SOC and use 2012 manufacturing technology that went on-line at Global Foundries 1th quarter 2012 and IBM I think a few months before. The SOC if being made now, Xbox361 should ship this holiday season (After Sept when Webkit2 makes XTV practical for Samsung among others).

Calls of fake could be true but I doubt it. 8X Xbox360 is low considering the latest rumors as 2 years ago Microsoft would only be guessing and AMD HSA efficiencies exceed what could be expected performance increase enabled with 28nm, SOC, concurrent cache, eDRAM etc. Having 2 GPUs so one can be used for low power is also not needed with an AMD design as the GPU can turn off parts that are not needed to save power.

All in all very well thought out if fake with a 2010 viewpoint that would take much thought to fake.

Everyone should expect "leaks" by both Microsoft and Sony to get us to wait rather than jump on the WiiU when it comes out. Both don't want to impact this generation sales by announcing next generation.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

If MS has abandoned them so have Sony as they have practically the same aims and games.

But MS is playing it save with the same core games over and over again, while sony tries to establish new IPs. They're just serving the halo, gears and forza guys, but that's just a small group of core gamers. MS is not really interested anymore into getting the whole.

 

[Biggzy]

Remember this is a 2 year old draft on the business reasons for a 720 release compiled for presentation by most likely non-technical office help.

As to XTV not appearing yet, it needs to wait for Webkit2 support in enough CE TVs and blu-ray players to make it economically practical (chicken and egg). That's been delayed and should be available before Sept of this year.



Xbox 361 cheaper Xbox360 with more features and will support XTV:

Found it page 50, more there that's interesting:

HDMI pass-thru (IF the PS3 had this then Google TV would be possible)
HD-Homerun => access to a Homerun Digital TV tuner? This is just software in Xbox if you have the tuner connected to Cable or Antenna as well as your home network.
XTV with full 1080P and overlays (Not possible on Xbox 360)

More is implied here, HDMI pass-through implies always on low power modes, Xbox361 as the only input to your TV with it controlling your picture with overlays, windows with information from the web and more.

Xbox 361 to be low cost is going to be an all in one 28nm SOC and use 2013 manufacturing technology that went on-line at Global Foundries 1st quarter 2012 and IBM I think a few months before. The SOC if being made now, Xbox361 should ship this holiday season (After Sept when Webkit2 makes XTV practical for Samsung among others).

Calls of fake could be true but I doubt it. 8X Xbox360 is low considering the latest rumors as 2 years ago Microsoft would only be guessing and AMD HSA efficiencies exceed what could be expected performance increase enabled with 28nm, SOC, concurrent cache, eDRAM etc. Having 2 GPUs so one can be used for low power is also not needed with an AMD design as the GPU can turn off parts that are not needed to save power.

All in all very well thought out if fake with a 2010 viewpoint that would take much thought to fake.

Everyone should expect "leaks" by both Microsoft and Sony to get us to wait rather than jump on the WiiU when it comes out. Both don't want to impact this generation sales by announcing next generation.

First thing that came to my mind when I read the 2 gpu's. Like I said previously, if this is real then I expect some substantial changes when this thing eventually gets released.

 

[2MF]

It looks so amateur, haha. Crazy if real

Depending on the target audience inside Microsoft, it's very plausible that they would cut corners on making it look professional. Content is much more important than presentation when your purpose is to help brainstorming ideas inside the company.

 

[Blastoise]

Kinda dissapointed in the projected specs 6~8 times.
had hoped on more 8~10 times 360.

Not sure if serious?

 

[M°°nblade]

Depending on the target audience inside Microsoft, it's very plausible that they would cut corners on making it look professional. Content is much more important than presentation when your purpose is to help brainstorming ideas inside the company.

Same here.
When we need technical specifications about whether vendors can offer HL7, XML communications and DICOM compliance we specifically ask not to send glossy papers but just the nerdy details in word documents. As much details as they can give.

 

[dragonelite]

Not sure if serious?

What so far i have heard sony is pushing for 10 times ps3 at the minimal.
What can 6~8 times really bring.

Standard next gen should be 1080p instead of sub 720p/720p
869.760 pixel versus 2.073.600 you need 2.29 times more pixels to process.

I think people are going to expect 60 fps and more dev pushing it.
60fps should open up a lot of extra gameplay option games can get more faster because there is less temporal aliasing less conflict in peoples brain.
You are already at 4.6 times the performance. This is all theoretical performance increases and GPU only. Round that up to 5 times to get practical performance for 70% of the devs out there.

If you want to have better effects developers want that 8~10 times performance increase.
I want that performance increase. If next gen can't deliver 1080p and a lot of games 60fps im not even interested in getting them. Only reason to get one is maybe for xna like environment so i can compete with friends in a set topbox who can write better/faster code