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[Bonen no Max'd]

I'm still hung up on how El_Tiguere is a dirty capitalist rentier and offers the most passionate and dumb arguments for Sanders.

Basically what my response would be. Let me be very clear: I think there is plenty of room for just about all of the WWC inside the tent in theory. My contention is that many of them don't actually want to join the tent because of who else is in it. Anyone who's cool with all of us can be one of us

At some point though the tent will be stretched too far. We can already agree that compromising with racism and white supremacy is a step too far (well mostly, we do have Manchin in the party), why can't voters and activists push to make it a party more like how they want it to be? Your response to challenges to the existing power structures in the party is that you don't like them, which means you don't want the power structures of the party to be changed and want a neoliberal party. That's fine, if you want a neoliberal party if you just say it, but trying to tell people who want a social democratic party that they shouldn't because it would involve changing power holders seems off base to me?

Simply find me the poll that says they support Medicare for All even if middle class taxes have to rise and I'll be with you.

Counterpoint: if we always refuse to raise taxes ever again we will eventually run out of money as the GOP continues to lower them every time we get power. Also, how about we shrink the military-industrial complex or something.

I think people are using it like it's a level above liberal, kind of like going super saiyan.

Not sure how much of this is just a joke, but neoliberalism refers to austerity, privatization of public services, deregulation, and market-oriented reforms.

 

[DarkKyo]

The primaries were not rigged.

They weren't rigged but I have a hard time keeping a straight face while saying it was fair. Super delegates are some serious bullshit.

 

[Sean C]

They weren't rigged but I have a hard time keeping a straight face while saying it was fair. Super delegates are some serious bullshit.

Clinton would have won without the superdelegates, and by the end of the primary season Sanders' campaign was talking about appealing to the superdelegates to overturn Clinton's pledged delegate lead.

 

[Cyframe]

The link between economic injustice and racial injustice of the private prison system was clear as day: lobbyists of the private prison system and oligarchs getting their way while the rest get ignored. It's too bad that you missed such a blatantly clear link. But pray tell, in your discernment of the issues, what was Hillary promising you in terms of the imprisoning of young black men? I guess I missed that one.

Let's go all the way back to the first post in this thread, and why it was made. Bernie Sanders said that Trump voters aren't racist and that Hillary and the Democrats were responsible for their loss. There needs to be accountability all around, not equal obviously but, xenophobia was a reason why many voted for Trump, and I don't think that fact can be glossed over at this junction.

But please tell me I don't know anything about the prison system and go into a tirade as if I've forgotten "Bring Them to Heel" Clinton.

EDIT:

If we're supposed to look past Trump voters racism, tell me why, minority democratic voters are being greeted with things like:

I do hate the Clintons. There is too much to hate there (which is why Hillary always had similar unfavorable ratings to a swindler like Trump). She was crucified for reasons of her own doing (such as having an illegal server in your basement to run your side deals with her bud Sydney Blumenthal). I am glad that they have been forced into political exile. Had Democrats in this thread harping on the mistreatment of blacks by whites placed enough emphasis on the white Clintons mistreatment of black Haitians, perhaps we would be celebrating President Bernie appointing a progressive Justice to the courts.

Like, it wasn't white people bringing up the Haitian wage issue. It was my community, and a Black protester who had the courage to ask Clinton about her comments on Black people.

 

[El_Tiguere]

That poll doesn't say that a majority of Americans support single-payer healthcare. It says that 60% of Americans favour the government "ensuring health care coverage for all Americans". That does not mean single-payer.

Fine it's a Medicare for all type of system (see the other poll).

if you could find me a poll where a majority of Americans voiced their support for single-payer, I would have to see what they thought after being read a barrage of the non-stop GOP attacks against it before I found it remotely convincing evidence. The public believes lots of things in the abstract, but are easily turned against it by scaremongering when it comes time to implement it.

"hey guys let's not pursue a policy favored by most Americans because the other side will be meanies and will talk bad about it!"

Congrats... this is the same losing attitude that so many were fed up with about Democrats in Congress.

The primaries were not rigged.

If you had your head in the sand...

 

[Sean C]

"hey guys let's not pursue a policy favored by most Americans because the other side will be meanies and will talk bad about it!"

Congrats... this is the same losing attitude that so many were fed up with about Democrats in Congress.

Er, no, the point is that Americans do not actually favour this policy with any sort of reliability.

Indeed, many, many of the arguments that the GOP made that were so successful in poisoning ACA's reputation for so long was by suggesting it actually was some sort of government healthcare takeover.

Moreover, repeated attempts to enact single-payer at the state level have shown that people do not want to pay the taxes necessary, even in places like Vermont, where it nearly torpedoed the state's Democratic governor. If you can't get Vermont onboard, you are not ready to go nationwide.

 

[kirblar]

They weren't rigged but I have a hard time keeping a straight face while saying it was fair. Super delegates are some serious bullshit.

Super Delegates are not bullshit. Super Delegates are there to break ties in the case of neither candidate amassing enough regular delegates to claim a majority, or to throw a wrench in the system and change the outcome if a candidate like Trump (or John Edwards post-"cheated on his wife with cancer") were to win the nomination and be a disaster in '08.

They didn't veto Obama for Clinton, they didn't veto Clinton for Sanders, and they wouldn't have vetoed Sanders for Clinton (as much as I would have wanted them to.)

If you or CNN or DailyKOS or TYT or RT or whoever is counting them in the total- you are wrong. No one considers them part of the game- they're endorsements, but they're not set in stone, and they're not going to come into play in most elections.

You don't think the GOP wishes they were had been able to veto Trump?

 

[BeesEight]

Lol, you're so transparent about your hate of her it's ridiculous. Explain to my why when the private speaking engagements of hers were leaked she said the exact same things she said in public? This is the type of dumb irrational hate of her that led to her being crucified for no reason

If I remember correctly, her private speaking engagements were different from her public statements - she confessed that her stances were actually more progressive but in order to sell them to the American public you had to first speak to the expectations of your audience if you hoped to convince them through dialogue to your position.

I believe one of the "controversies" from her leaked private speaking engagements was that she actually supported single-payer but knew it couldn't be enacted whole sale because Americans wouldn't support it immediately.

Let me look it up...

Then with my husband's administration we worked very hard to come up with a system, but we were very much constricted by the political realities that if you had your insurance from your employer you were reluctant to try anything else. And so we were trying to build a universal system around the employer-based system... So we're really just at the beginning. But we do have Medicare for people over 65. And you couldn't, I don't think, take it away if you tried, because people are very satisfied with it, but we also have a lot of political and financial resistance to expanding that system to more people. So we're in a learning period as we move forward with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act. And I'm hoping that whatever the shortfalls or the glitches have been, which in a big piece of legislation you're going to have, those will be remedied and we can really take a hard look at what's succeeding, fix what isn't, and keep moving forward to get to affordable universal healthcare coverage like you have here in Canada.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-hillary-clinton-private-speeches-released-2016-10

I actually gained a lot of respect for Clinton after her private donor speeches were leaked. I honestly don't know how people weren't more enthused to have an intelligent, thoughtful but experienced politician who knew not only what was necessary but the reality for executing it in power.

No, instead you got an idiot with 0 political experience and more controversies than you could fit in a wikipage and a bunch of angry... fans who are still embittered because they prefer the cult of personality around their candidate instead of someone 99% on their page but not 100% there.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

If I remember correctly, her private speaking engagements were different from her public statements - she confessed that her stances were actually more progressive but in order to sell them to the American public you had to first speak to the expectations of your audience if you hoped to convince them through dialogue to your position.

I believe one of the "controversies" from her leaked private speaking engagements was that she actually supported single-payer but knew it couldn't be enacted whole sale because Americans wouldn't support it immediately.

Let me look it up...



http://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-hillary-clinton-private-speeches-released-2016-10

I actually gained a lot of respect for Clinton after her private donor speeches were leaked. I honestly don't know how people weren't more enthused to have an intelligent, thoughtful but experienced politician who knew not only what was necessary but the reality for executing it in power.

No, instead you got an idiot with 0 political experience and more controversies than you could fit in a wikipage and a bunch of angry... fans who are still embittered because they prefer the cult of personality around their candidate instead of someone 99% on their page but not 100% there.

Yup. The same people who kept trying to push her being two faced and being less progressive and liberal in private were noticeably absent when those were leaked, or they focused on dumb shit. Like when she was speaking of the difficulty of millennials trying to be fully financially independent, and how some still lived with their parents, people somehow twisted it into a basement dweller insult. It was embarrassing

 

[El_Tiguere]

Yup. The same people who kept trying to push her being two faced and being less progressive and liberal in private were noticeably absent when those were leaked, or they focused on dumb shit. Like when she was speaking of the difficulty of millennials trying to be fully financially independent, and how some still lived with their parents, people somehow twisted it into a basement dweller insult. It was embarrassing

I'm happy to provide a refresher of all the shenanigans that anyone outside of the Clinton cultist echo chambers was following daily :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgwLHAC5mk9Ghblc6O7AXzxX5dNLlMg0hHUn-D_Ay7I/htmlview

 

[Armaros]

I'm happy to provide a refresher of all the shenanigans that anyone outside of the Clinton cultist echo chambers was following daily :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgwLHAC5mk9Ghblc6O7AXzxX5dNLlMg0hHUn-D_Ay7I/htmlview

Are you seriously going to post a former R/sandersforpresident spreadsheet as evidence?

While talking about echo chambers? Talk about lacking selfawareness.

 

[Jenov]

I'm happy to provide a refresher of all the shenanigans that anyone outside of the Clinton cultist echo chambers was following daily :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgwLHAC5mk9Ghblc6O7AXzxX5dNLlMg0hHUn-D_Ay7I/htmlview

Just a copy paste of one of the fields from there:

THE ENTIRE VP SHORTLIST (notice poor Bernie at the bottom of a very long list, he never had a shot) edit: apparently divided into "food groups" (Podesta's words) by race and gender lmao. Fucking liberals.

lol, come on.

 

[Cipherr]

I'm happy to provide a refresher of all the shenanigans that anyone outside of the Clinton cultist echo chambers was following daily :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgwLHAC5mk9Ghblc6O7AXzxX5dNLlMg0hHUn-D_Ay7I/htmlview

Oh lord have mercy, thanks for reminding me how absolutely insane this group of people are.

It truly is the Primary all over again. The wound that just wooooon't heal for these dudes, all these months later. lol

 

[pigeon]

I'm happy to provide a refresher of all the shenanigans that anyone outside of the Clinton cultist echo chambers was following daily :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgwLHAC5mk9Ghblc6O7AXzxX5dNLlMg0hHUn-D_Ay7I/htmlview

This pretty much sums it up.

"Somebody running for president against Bernie sent an email calling Bernie self-righteous! PROOF OF CORRUPTION BURN IT ALL DOWN"

 

[El_Tiguere]

This pretty much sums it up.

"Somebody running for president against Bernie sent an email calling Bernie self-righteous! PROOF OF CORRUPTION BURN IT ALL DOWN"

Keep reading further bud...

 

[Cipherr]

Keep reading further bud...

Give us a chance to catch our breath, this horseshit is hilarious. But trust and believe, we are reading

 

[TheLaughingStock]

This is absolutely patently false. Your "stable" national big banks had to be bailed out in the tune of +$700 billion by our treasury, and credit facilities/guarantees/swaps had to be dolled out to the tune of over $14 TRILLION dollars to keep these mega-banks from taking down the global financial system with them. Despite those short-term fixes, the Fed STILL had to facilitate over $4.5 TRILLION in QE to bail out financial assets (the infamous "wealth effect"), so you have no basis in saying that concentrating risk and power among fewer bigger hands is better for anybody.

The fact the Fed had $1 trillion + credit exposure and had to provide support for years via multiple avenues like the primary dealer credit facility, term auction facility, term securities lending facility and single-tranche open market operations....it's just sad how much assistance they needed.

 

[El_Tiguere]

Give us a chance to catch our breath, this horseshit is hilarious. But trust and believe, we are reading

This horseshit gave us Trump at the end of the day. Let's all laugh together.

 

[Armaros]

Keep reading further bud...

Couldnt be bothered to post the evidence that isn't absurd in the thread? And force your detractors to dig through shit for you?

 

[pigeon]

Keep reading further bud...

I mean, it's clear from the first page that this is a list of grievances, not a list of evidence. The fact that you can't tell the difference is really what's notable here.

 

[El_Tiguere]

Couldnt be bothered to post the evidence that isn't absurd in the thread? And force your detractors to dig through shit for you?

If Podesta emails are absurd, blame those who wrote them.

 

[Armaros]

If Podesta emails are absurd, blame those who wrote them.

Keep deflecting, that makes you look better all right.

 

[Jenov]

If Podesta emails are absurd, blame those who wrote them.

Dude, your source has an entire tab dedicated to fucking Project Veritas videos. As if it wasn't ridiculous enough.

Project Veritas, Rigging the Election - Part I: Clinton Campaign and DNC Incite Violence at Trump Rallies
Project Veritas, Mass Voter Fraud, Part 2: Bussing in illegal immigrants with fake IDs to vote in numerous states
Project Veritas, DNC Schemes to Bully Women at Trump Rally
Project Veritas, Rigging the Election, Part 3: Creamer Confirms Hillary Clinton Was PERSONALLY Involved
Project Veritas, Rigging the Election - Part 4: $20K Wire Transfer From Belize Returned
Project Veritas, HIDDEN CAM: Media Matters Brags About Sabotaging Roger Stone
Protect Veritas, Democratic Pollster Celinda Lake Tells Union Workers To Lie To Voters
Project Veritas, Major Hillary Donor Inside Dem Fundraiser: Blacks Are ”Seriously F***ed in The Head" <--- lol, this one

edit: for those that don't know Project Veritas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe

 

[kirblar]

John Podesta and Bernie Sanders just endorsed the same candidate in the VA Governor's race.

 

[El_Tiguere]

John Podesta and Bernie Sanders just endorsed the same candidate in the VA Governor's race.

Why go for the boring ones?

 

[Armaros]

Why go for the boring ones?

How about you post the evidence? It's pretty simple.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

Are you seriously going to post a former R/sandersforpresident spreadsheet as evidence?

While talking about echo chambers? Talk about lacking selfawareness.

It's more likely from the_donald. "Stupid liberals" comment and several links to the_donald subreddit. Also the timing of the leak.

 

[Armaros]

It's more likely from the_donald. "Stupid liberals" comment and several links to the_donald subreddit.

The first edition was from s4p early in the primary, I remember reading it, you can bet a bunch of it got repurposed for T_D. They both covered the same ground regarding Hillary.

 

[Platinumstorm]

It's interesting to revisit this topic and see someone talk about the bathroom bill and pretend like it was a pillar of Hillary's campaign. If minor mentions of trans rights send people into a rage, they need to be castigated and not catered to. Stop pretending trans rights were at the forefront of anything. And how dare anyone bring up their small population and stipulate that anything shouldn't be said about them.

And the other thing is, minorities live in rural areas. I did, and it was horrible. So people saying anything like we don't have lived experience with rural whites, come on now. My family was poor, plus I dealt with racism, and xenophobia and was sometimes granted conditional acceptance because I wasn't one of those "Blacks."

Addressing economic issues under a single umbrella doesn't and can't work. That's what Bernie attempted to do. He talked about college education but many Black youths are funneled into the prison system and will never benefit from a college education because a criminal record of any sorts for a Black person gets you blacklisted. Now Bernie did talk about the prison system, but in so many cases, he wasn't able to link them together into a cohesive plan. When I had any questions about Bernie's outreach, people just told me he marched with MLK, and that should placate me.

If Trump voters need to learn a hard lesson then democrats and others who are left learning are also going to learn that with minorities don't (rather can't) show up to vote if so many issues are simply neglected.

A lot of people are able to view this subject with the complexity it deserves. But I don't want to read a single think piece on why I need to be nicer to people who don't show the same level of respect. And I tire of thinly veiled threats to my well-being if I don't play nice. Read my other responses to see where the actual focus should be (imo).

I'm stating that trans rights took precedent in the debates over issues that affect vastly higher numbers of people, including all people who identify as trans, like global warming. That's not acceptable. My argument never once said to drop trans-rights from the Democratic message, only that it shouldn't be emphasized as heavily in campaign mode. That's the idea of a big tent; which is what my entire post advocated for. I additionally brought up how it was used as a campaign tool in NC as an economic issue just as much, if not more, than a trans-rights issue from the articles I have read, and I used the repeal deadline of just before the NCAA scheduling deadline to support that argument.

Your private prison point augments my point. The election of the Trump Administration has only bolstered the re-escalation of the use of private prisons, and it's rekindling the war against minor league drugs, and you've already pointed out exactly who it affects. You can affect change if you lose an election, but you cannot enact change unless you win.

I don't really like the idea of tying education cost to an economic justice argument. I consider it off in its own separate arrangement that's targeted at younger voters. I also don't find his free uni argument to be palatable to the nation anyhow. We especially need to have people back in the trades; and then also compensate those people within the trades appropriately.

I don't know if the last part is directed towards me, but that isn't my intent, nor did I ever show any indication that you should tolerate someone treating you poorly or discriminating against you.

 

[Cyframe]

I'm stating that trans rights took precedent in the debates over issues that affect vastly higher numbers of people, including all people who identify as trans, like global warming. That's not acceptable. My argument never once said to drop trans-rights from the Democratic message, only that it shouldn't be emphasized as heavily in campaign mode. That's the idea of a big tent; which is what my entire post advocated for. I additionally brought up how it was used as a campaign tool in NC as an economic issue just as much, if not more, than a trans-rights issue from the articles I have read, and I used the repeal deadline of just before the NCAA scheduling deadline to support that argument.

Your private prison point augments my point. The election of the Trump Administration has only bolstered the re-escalation of the use of private prisons, and it's rekindling the war against minor league drugs, and you've already pointed out exactly who it affects. You can affect change if you lose an election, but you cannot enact change unless you win.

I don't really like the idea of tying education cost to an economic justice argument. I consider it off in its own separate arrangement that's targeted at younger voters. I also don't find his free uni argument to be palatable to the nation anyhow. We especially need to have people back in the trades; and then also compensate those people within the trades appropriately.

I don't know if the last part is directed towards me, but that isn't my intent, nor did I ever show any indication that you should tolerate someone treating you poorly or discriminating against you.

Donald Trump was able to say "I don't care what bathroom Caitlyn Jenner uses" and that had no negative effect on him. That isn't to say that he's an LGBTQ advocate because even Jenner had to make a personal plea for him to talk to her about trans rights. But the small nods that democrats give to trans issues is not significant, usually, they give a speech and rattle off minorities at the end of it, which includes trans people.

It's not a contest between global warming and trans rights. Because I can tell you that small nods to at-risk minorities give them hope. But at the same time, how can trans people worry about things like global warming when they're at a higher risk for suicide, being killed, their killers getting away with a gay panic defense, job discrimination, healthcare discrimination and other issues? While listing those, I can't think of a single mainstream presidential candidate that devoted time(entire speeches and events) to those things. Do I think you would say to a trans person that global warming is more important than terminal life circumstances for them? I don't think so(I would hope not).

Obviously, speeches can be tailored to where someone is visiting a state, but I would 100% disagree with your assertion that trans issues are monopolizing time.

My main point in most of my responses is showcasing that certain rhetoric turns off exhausted and fearful marginalized groups. What's outreach to trump supporters that may be swayed to vote differently if it costs and demoralizes minorities? I think the focus is off here when I see Bernie Sanders bring up the dead horse deplorable comment or I see pieces telling me to be nicer to Trump supporters with a Black Trump supporter contrasting a white liberal in a news header. I have better community outreach prospects than to do that(poll closings, accessibility, combating voter intimidation, vote id laws).