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Saving Zelda -an in depth critique of the LoZ series

Okay. I'm confused. Long-winded as he is, I don't see too much to get really upset about - but even people I admire on GAF are ripping the guy a new one. What gives?

I don't want Zelda to be a western-style game; I don't want it to be an RPG. I want it to be an action-adventure title that challenges me to discover things and face enemies. That's what the early Zelda games were. And that's what I miss.

Even the examples he gave of games that Zelda could take notice of, SotC and Demon's Souls, are far from what people in this thread are suggesting he wants from the series.
I have no problem with criticism of the Zelda formula, the thing that bothers me is when people talk about "saving" the series and attempt to lay out some master plan in overly verbose wording to make themselves seem intelligent. I just find the writing style to be incredibly pretentious and, at the end of the day, purely lacking in substance.

It's the cotton candy of criticism, it might taste good at first but when you really dig into it you realize there isn't much there besides fluff. And even if there is a solid argument or two to be made from something buried in that fluff I find myself unwilling to deal with it because the digging just isn't worth the effort.
 

Dr.Hadji

Member
No. There is a difference between the early Zelda games and the new ones. I can still play LoZ, AoL, and LttP, and enjoy myself immensely. I didn't change; they did.

But but I thought Zelda was stale and unchanging? This doesn't make any sense.
 
All Zelda games have fundamental differences from one another. 1 was more about exploration, 2 was a sidescroller that's more RPG-like, 3 enhanced the puzzles and fighting, Majora's Mask focused on time, etc.

This seems to be yet another case where a person is attached to one of many sides of Zelda, and is disappointed no other Zelda game is similar. That's not a bad thing, it's just one person's opinion, but it just shows that everyone has different tastes.

(What's funny is that if all Zelda games were similar, people would complain about that, too...)
 

Vinci

Danish
But but I thought Zelda was stale and unchanging? This doesn't make any sense.

What doesn't make sense? You know OoT came out a long time ago, right? So yes, it can both have changed in the far past and yet be stale and unchanging during the recent past.

EDIT @ The_Darkest_Red: For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting the guy is brilliant. I'm saying that his criticisms ring true to my personal feelings about the series as well. His lack of suggestions over what could be done - which, IMO, is the meat to any intelligent critique - is notable.
 

Riposte

Member
That's a very long winded way of saying the game needs to be more like Demon's Souls. Well, anyway that what I get when I skim it. I would read it if I didn't get the impression half of what he is wrote is filler which doesn't interest me. Also I don't hold the original games of the series in a special regard. The series main problem is that the games are too easy and mechanically simple (though it doesn't help Skyward Sword is constantly trying to teach you how to play anyway).
 
I don't understand....is the complaint that a game that isn't an open world game isn't an open world game? I went from Skyrim straight to (like literally, last quest in skyrim, 10mins later playing Skyward Sword) and I love that it isn't open world...
I love that it's explicitly designed to work as a giant puzzle. His key analogy was pretty spot on, but I'm not personally seeing it as a negative.
 
No. There is a difference between the early Zelda games and the new ones. I can still play LoZ, AoL, and LttP, and enjoy myself immensely. I didn't change; they did.

that's weird, because i can't play LoZ or AoL, but i can play LttP, OoT3D, Wind Waker and Skywards Sword.

still being able to replay an old game you played back in the day and still enjoy it doesn't mean it's held up. i didn't play any of the 2D zeldas back in the day. Wind Waker was the first zelda game i played.

LttP and LA have held up, but the NES ones haven't. important games? sure. something people that loved them can still get love from? sure. something you'd recommend to someone who hasn't played them before outside of 'everyone SHOULD have played this game'?

not so much.
 
Oh not this BS again, NO NO NO Zelda don't need to messing around with it, just because you didnt like the last one or you want a steampunk one or what every, I want Zelda to be a Zelda game

they always changing it, and they always someone not happy with that one or think it should be more like this or that

I don't want this BS again it don't need saving let them get on with it
 
Nonsense. That's the best part of Zelda, not a flaw.
If anything, are other games that should learn something from it. Like Bethesda and their inability to make their worlds interesting or useful in any way beside being nice looking panoramas.

So the best part about Zelda is being run through a series of gauntlets to find items that are no more useful than a normal key, just to get to the next area and do it again? So, exploring and finding items to help you explore in more interesting ways would be bad? It would be bad if the claw shot allowed you to climb more places than the ones the designers 'want' you to?

What it seems he is saying does not mean that the world should be completely open, but that how you explore the environment is up to the player, rather than a linear experience disguised as an exploration adventure game.
 

udivision

Member
All Zelda's are action puzzle games. They aren't epic adventures, even though they consist of elves and magic and prophecies. People kind of trick themselves into thinking that it's something more. They see those fantastical elements and latch on to them.

This wouldn't be an issue if you swapped Zelda characters for Mario ones.
 

ghibli99

Member
I haven't played TP, and I'm only a few hours into SS, but I've played just about all the others, and enjoyed them quite a bit. Were there things that I didn't care for? Sure, but that's just about every game.

Personally, I really enjoy the familiarity of Zelda games. That same sound when you open up a path or do something right. The layered way in which items you attain help you traverse dungeons or areas of the overworld that you couldn't get to before. This all lends itself to the feeling that Link is getting stronger with more skills and tools at his disposal.

I think that's a core feeling that a lot of gamers like, even though Nintendo has unquestionably made them more accessible, and as a result, easier. It would be neat to see the next Zelda come with a Master Quest from the get-go for seasoned series vets.

But broken and in need of saving? Hardly.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
So... every Zelda aside from the first one have broken mechanics...



...yeah this is dumb.

Using those standards, almost every game that originated from the 8-bit Nintendo era is "broken", because almost every single game has been fundamentally changed, experimented with, or evolved in some way.

It seems pretty foolish to take such an incredibly narrow, reductionist view, but it... it's a common point of view among hardcore gamers.

Here's how you "break" the fundamental concept of a series:

Street Fighter V: The World Murderer is a first person shooter in which Guile gets tired of being a family man and goes to Iran to clean house, and there's nary a fighting game mechanic in any point of the game.

But Zelda through every iteration has been an action adventure game centered around progressing between dungeons that are mazelike and require some combination of combat and puzzle solving to clear.

Almost every single Zelda game of note fits this description perfectly. Most, epitomize it.

The exact expression of the formula has changed and morphed over the years, going back and forth, up and down, and sometimes sideways. But it has stayed remarkably true to its roots, where a lot of games have not.

A lot of the criticisms of Zelda end up sounding like the claims that 3D Mario is absolutely nothing whatsoever like 2D Mario because grabbing a star at the end of a level is in no way like touching a flagpole. With such critics digging their heels in doggedly and insisting that every successive 3D Mario game which is more and more EXACTLY like 2D Mario is somehow still nothing at all like 2D Mario. In any way at all.

It just comes off as disingenuous after a certain point. A "I don't like this thing but have to be right about not liking it."
 
hardcastlemccormick, a "refashion" is not essential?

Essential? Your word choice is a curious one. Essential to the market? Depends on if Nintendo needs to get the franchise back into the spotlight, or merely would like to. Essential to me personally? No.

I wouldn't mind it, and I like it when Nintendo tries something new (we get things like Galaxy) but there wouldn't be any of my tears on the game box if Nintendo stuck with their current path. The recent Zelda games have all been different enough for me to find them each good enough to play. I also don't find the "formula" as routine as a lot of people do, and I'm not going into the game expecting Witcher or Skyrim.

So, no, I don't think it's essential.

Like I said before, Skyward Sword had good and bad elements in it. The series can keep its path while still honing its craft - removing the verbose nature of the world, making the environments more intricate, and so on.
 
This guy is playing Zelda for all the wrong reasons it seems. His core argument is, "Baww, mammals aren't birds, even though both came from reptiles!" There was Zelda I. Some games took that and became Skyrim. Other games took that and became Ocarina of Time.

I, for one, appreciate that Zelda remains a game, and not an experience, tough there is obviously room for both.
 

Ultimadrago

Member
wat?

Thread finished because I shared my personal opinion on what I'd like to see in future Zelda games? Interesting... I wonder if this will work in other threads.

Yes, as another Zelda in style and tone to LttP is in order and I must acknowledge those that appreciate Wind Waker (besides, *eherm* that part).
 

Vinci

Danish
still being able to replay an old game you played back in the day and still enjoy it doesn't mean it's held up. i didn't play any of the 2D zeldas back in the day. Wind Waker was the first zelda game i played.

It's not about something holding up compared to modern standards. The drive within the early games, why you were doing things and how you accomplished them, was different. I don't like that things fit so perfectly together now. You can perfect something to the point that it removes much of its appeal. I think 'mechanical' and 'easy' are both apt words for what more modern Zelda games are like that don't fit quite so neatly with the older ones.
 

daedalius

Member
So, Zelda Dark Souls?

Could be pretty interesting.

I don't think the enemies in Dark Souls would be too accommodating for waggle though.
 

Madao

Member
All Zelda's are action puzzle games. They aren't epic adventures, even though they consist of elves and magic and prophecies. People kind of trick themselves into thinking that it's something more. They see those fantastical elements and latch on to them.

This wouldn't be an issue if you swapped Zelda characters for Mario ones.

true. if it was just "the Legend of Peach: Skyward Jumps", people would just file it as another mario spinoff and there wouldn't be much discussion outside hardcore circles. you don't hear that Mario needs to be saved/reinvented/modernized anywhere despite it having way more exposure and sales.
 

xHAASx

Banned
Essential? Your word choice is a curious one. Essential to the market? Depends on if Nintendo needs to get the franchise back into the spotlight, or merely would like to. Essential to me personally? No.

I wouldn't mind it, and I like it when Nintendo tries something new (we get things like Galaxy) but there wouldn't be any of my tears on the game box if Nintendo stuck with their current path. The recent Zelda games have all been different enough for me to find them each good enough to play. I also don't find the "formula" as routine as a lot of people do, and I'm not going into the game expecting Witcher or Skyrim.

So, no, I don't think it's essential.

Like I said before, Skyward Sword had good and bad elements in it. The series can keep its path while still honing its craft - removing the verbose nature of the world, making the environments more intricate, and so on.

Analyzing and looking into new, fresh concepts and ideas, is never unwelcoming.
 

Emitan

Member
Not arguing with him at all. Just using his post to springboard my point that the Zelda fan base is split on almost everything.

Well (at least in this thread) he never said Zelda is stale and unchanging, so it doesn't really make sense to counter with that WHEN HE'S ARGUING THE SERIES HAS CHANGED
 

kadotsu

Banned
I think gamefaqs killed Zelda games for most ADD gamers. It lead them to critical path the game and the sense of exploration through the puzzles itself is lost. I do agree though that the series needs less direct tutorials, more obscurity of game mechanics (mostly for combat) and longer causal chains to solve a puzzle.

There are many possibilities to achieve this. Puzzles could have designed red herrings in them to lead the player into a fail state (of course the player would be given a time revinding tool) the best example of this design approach is Zack and Wiki. They could include optimization problems that have a simple, game progressing solution and a obscure, "secret reward" solution (FFX dungeons).

In the end I'm still satisfied with Zelda as a franchise. Every game has it's fair share of flaws but the core design is still solid.
 

Vinci

Danish
Well (at least in this thread) he never said Zelda is stale and unchanging, so it doesn't really make sense to counter with that WHEN HE'S ARGUING THE SERIES HAS CHANGED

Oh, it definitely has. Some of the systems remain from the old days, but the nature of the world and your place in it has changed dramatically over the course of the series. I unhappily prefer the old ones. It seems that, however, isn't what the current fanbase wants, so I'm kind of stuck still dreaming of Zelda games that won't ever happen.

@ Kaijima: Frankly, the most recent Mario games have gotten closer to the 2D ones, particularly the Galaxy titles and what I've played of 3D Land. As such, the Mario series gets a pass as I think it skewed from the 2D style for a while with the 3D but have since found their way back.

Zelda hasn't.
 

CorvoSol

Member
This reminds me of the "Zelda needs a reboot!" Topic on GameFAQs last week. In typical fashion everyone responded by simply making topics about what kind of boots Zelda needed, but it is interesting to see this topic crop up again.

That said, I'm all for allowing for more exploration. Like, one of my favorite things in older Zelda games are the nonessential swords and items. The Biggoron sword, the Great Fairy Sword, the Fierce Diety Mask, the ice rod, the magic cape; all of these were fun things to go and get in earlier Zeldas, and I do confess that later Zeldas have lacked in going off and finding junk to get these.

So I'm open to the idea that increased exploration and nonessential gear, but I reject the notion that Zelda is in need of saving or is broken.
 

mikeysteena

Neo Member
I have to say I kind of agree with him. I personally prefer the earlier titles, I didn't get as much of Skyward Sword as I did with say Link To The Past.
The series hasn't got stale, that's a bit harsh. But it has lost a lot of what Zelda fans fell in love with in the first place.
 
Hyrule needs space to breathe, fields of purposeless grandeur

I could not disagree more, especially after the huge, dull and lifeless wasteland that is Twilight Princess. I much prefer Skyward Sword's approach with its overworld dungeons - you actually do something in the areas instead of just running through empty fields without anything to do outside of dungeons.

Zelda would be better if it had no story. Or more precisely, no plot to structure the adventure.

No thanks, adventures with no objective don't give me any motivation or desire to play them. He says the story is only filler, but then wants his playtime to be filled by exploring "fields of purposeless grandeur"? That makes no sense. Zelda is Zelda because of its gameplay and its lore, take one away and it's no longer Zelda.
And then he complains that dungeons rely on puzzles. Really? What should they contain, platforming like Mario or only fighting enemies?
He complains about Zelda being Zelda. I don't see the point, go play games with no story and huge worlds, they exist already. Zelda is unique, let it be Zelda.
 
Derogatory terminology for motion controls I dislike means I haven't played SS.

Gotcha, troll.

Why would I click view post when you respond? No idea.

No, using the completely wrong term for a game that doesn't use waggle means you haven't played Skyward Sword. Do you even know what waggle is?
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
@ Kaijima: Frankly, the most recent Mario games have gotten closer to the 2D ones, particularly the Galaxy titles and what I've played of 3D Land. As such, the Mario series gets a pass as I think it skewed from the 2D style for a while with the 3D but have since found their way back.

Zelda hasn't.

No, but aside from overworld density and complexity ala LttP, Zelda hasn't intentionally tried to be like 8 and 16 bit Zelda games.

I think it is true that there's not nearly so much griping about Mario (save a few brave holdouts) because we're getting a variety of Mario these days. Variety is good.

Likewise, I would be perfectly happy to see Zelda continue to experiment with Skyward Sword as a springboard. Take away Fi yapping so much and SS is one of my favorite games in the series.

BUT, I would also like to see a companion series as well, that intentionally based itself around old school design concepts first and foremost.
 

Emitan

Member
No, using the completely wrong term for a game that doesn't use waggle means you haven't played Skyward Sword.

The verb I would use that accurately describes the sword combat for me is "flailing". Almost any enemy (sans bosses) can be defeated by wildly flailing your arm. This is how I beat the game because the sword controls would not cooperate with me.
 
The verb I would use that accurate describes the sword combat for me is "flailing". Almost any enemy (sans bosses) can be defeated by wildly flailing your arm. This is how I beat the game because the sword controls would not cooperate with me.

This would be more accurate, yes. Except a lot of enemies cannot be defeated with flailing for various reasons.

But using the term waggle is just wrong.
 

daedalius

Member
The verb I would use that accurate describes the sword combat for me is "flailing". Almost any enemy (sans bosses) can be defeated by wildly flailing your arm. This is how I beat the game because the sword controls would not cooperate with me.

Flailing, waggling, swinging, pretending to swing a sword that is actually a plastic wand, its all the same crap to me.

Could do without, give me a controller mode next time.

They were saying pack it up, because everything you said was correct :p

Its great that people would be behind doing a new LTTP, I just don't think its going to happen :(
 
No, only that Zelda is becoming ancient and bromidic in current times.

Is that your point? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, other than saying you don't like Zelda. Okay? That's cool I guess. That is an opinion, not a truth that you can point to Gamespot to help back up your case.
 
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