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[RedAssedApe]

Damn, GWC disappeared. Wonder what's up with that.

probably just got tired of making videos that probably weren't making him money lol

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Still, he isn't saying black people look like half-trolls, he writes that people from Far harad are black and half-troll like. Like those rural area guys are short with hairy feet. Yes they aren't human, point is, don't use that sentence as proof that he is disgusted of how black people look like.

But yeah, about Baranor, thank god you just kept talking about him. I really hope that character is from South and brings stories from there, no matter how fanfiction it might be, hopefully he is actual character in actual game too, not just DLC.

I would love to see more games taking place in ME. Maybe see those blue wizards in easter lands or Dain defending Erebor.

That's... an interesting point, given how they're stressing Baranor getting his story shown off in DLC. Torvin and Hirgon both got their backstory elaborated on through hidden collectables, and the main story dealt with one particular problem they wanted to overcome. On the other hand, Celebrimbor's backstory was turned into a playable scenario even while already being functionally covered in the story. So it's hard to say what this emphasis might mean in terms of balance for his story being present in the base game, vs only being detailed in the DLC.

Otherwise, I'd probably be more readily interested in stories in Rhun or Harad, yeah, particularly since as you bring up, the Blue Wizards could be used as a substitute for Gandalf. Like, have them reveal to the MC that this Sauron guy is actually no good, before leaving said MC to figure out how to keep his people from being manipulated because destiny or whatever. The North tends to be the existing standard for 'stories set in Middle Earth but not directly following the fellowship', ala War in the North and Lord of the Rings Online.

 

[DarkConfidant]

I wonder if they give any awkward moments that naturally come with being the only black person in a group of all white people (and orcs). Make the game funnier.

Spoiler

Probably not. XD

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I wonder if they give any awkward moments that naturally come with being the only black person in a group of all white people (and orcs). Make the game funnier.

Spoiler

Probably not. XD

"So, you must know your way around Umbar, right?"
"Do I look like a man who's ever been to the city of Corsairs?"
"...Um..."
"Don't answer that."

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

That's... an interesting point, given how they're stressing Baranor getting his story shown off in DLC. Torvin and Hirgon both got their backstory elaborated on through hidden collectables, and the main story dealt with one particular problem they wanted to overcome. On the other hand, Celebrimbor's backstory was turned into a playable scenario even while already being functionally covered in the story. So it's hard to say what this emphasis might mean in terms of balance for his story being present in the base game, vs only being detailed in the DLC.

Otherwise, I'd probably be more readily interested in stories in Rhun or Harad, yeah, particularly since as you bring up, the Blue Wizards could be used as a substitute for Gandalf. Like, have them reveal to the MC that this Sauron guy is actually no good, before leaving said MC to figure out how to keep his people from being manipulated because destiny or whatever. The North tends to be the existing standard for 'stories set in Middle Earth but not directly following the fellowship', ala War in the North and Lord of the Rings Online.

Extending stories to Harad, behind Rhun or even at Umbar could open so many possibilities for stories. But of course all these hopes come from me being bit frustrated that Tolkien never did or have time to expand stories outside anglo-saxon/scandinavian rooted areas of ME.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Still, he isn't saying black people look like half-trolls, he writes that people from Far harad are black and half-troll like. Like those rural area guys are short with hairy feet. Yes they aren't human, point is, don't use that sentence as proof that he is disgusted of how black people look like.

The only black men in Tolkien's entire legendarium are described as looking like half-trolls. It speaks for itself. We all like Tolkien. I think the game looks cool and I like the idea of exploring new parts of Arda. But there's really no reason to twist yourself into a pretzel to find a loophole here. Tolkien doesn't have to be perfect to be great.

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

The only black men in Tolkien's entire legendarium are described as looking like half-trolls. It speaks for itself. We all like Tolkien. I think the game looks cool and I like the idea of exploring new parts of Arda. But there's really no reason to twist yourself into a pretzel to find a loophole here. Tolkien doesn't have to be perfect to be great.

Believe or not, I'm not writing those comments to defend Tolkien here, nor do I think he has to be perfect. But yeah, I think this whole discussion on subject has ran its course and there is more fruitful conversation to be had on actual black character in this game.

 

[shockthrill]

The only black men in Tolkien's entire legendarium are described as looking like half-trolls. It speaks for itself. We all like Tolkien. I think the game looks cool and I like the idea of exploring new parts of Arda. But there's really no reason to twist yourself into a pretzel to find a loophole here. Tolkien doesn't have to be perfect to be great.

I think the question if past authors were racist is both equally important, but at the same time it almost begs the question so what?


In terms of Lovecraft's racism, which was beyond the norm of the time, then it's important to interrogate how that intercedes with his stories

Tolkien's racism seems to be more of the "snobbish Anglo Saxon elitist" kind, but it wasn't of pure hatred and vitriol like Lovecrafts

I feel like if we applied our moral sensibilities to every piece of art, then every European Male artist before the year 1900 was problematic in some way

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Believe or not, I'm not writing those comments to defend Tolkien here, nor do I think he has to be perfect. But yeah, I think this whole discussion on subject has ran its course and there is more fruitful conversation to be had on actual black character in this game.

There's a map of Arda (I think for a DnD game?) that has always enticed me. Not canon, but it is fun to look at. I really like games that explore those unknown areas.

 

[shockthrill]

Just wanted to make clear, i am not trying to defend Tolkien outright, I admire him as a writer, and can admit that he had blindspots like we all do


Just like I can admire Newton's mathematical and scientific genius, despite the fact that he also believed in Alchemy and finding secret codes in the bible, it doesn't take away from what he did in the Principia

 

[Drillary Clinton]

Awesome. The more the better.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

There's a map of Arda (I think for a DnD game?) that has always enticed me. Not canon, but it is fun to look at. I really like games that explore those unknown areas.

It's the map from the Middle-Earth Roleplaying Game, and it's the most popular 'whole map' model for Arda, I believe. But it's also subject to a lot of editing for individual games. So, raw version:

Karen Wynn Fonstad, who did the Atlas of Middle-Earth, provides this closest example:

Though that's the Second Age, and geography in Tolkien's is not consistent in universe, so no-one can fully guess as to what a 'complete' version of the map would properly look like.

 

[anothertech]

Cool. But where's all the Asians?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Cool. But where's all the Asians?

That would be the Easterlings, the people of Rhun and beyond.

As to any named depictions we can get behind, then same situation as with black people until Baranor was made for this game.

 

[Famassu]

While not especially thrilling to me, I hope he is more a "good character who happens to be black" than a "black character we included so to make out game more 'inclusive'".

It's good either way (so long as it's not some horribly racist caricature). Why do black peoplen need to earn their place when white people don't?

 

[SiegfriedFM]

The only black men in Tolkien's entire legendarium are described as looking like half-trolls. It speaks for itself. We all like Tolkien. I think the game looks cool and I like the idea of exploring new parts of Arda. But there's really no reason to twist yourself into a pretzel to find a loophole here. Tolkien doesn't have to be perfect to be great.

Southrons (haradrim) are black. Variags might also be (I don't think they were very much described). If we are calling Tolkien a card-carrying KKK member based only on that sentence, I think it needs a bit more research. Do we know if it means "men (that are) like half-trolls" or "{men-like} half-trolls"? Is black a description of a person with a darker skin tone or someone who is actually the colour black, #000000? Maybe this is from my perspective of playing MERP, but can't these simply be actual half-trolls?

As for the actual topic at hand, these games are horrible so I don't care at all. I would love it if someone actually explored the reaches of Arda without this wraith/the Two Ring/Sexy Shelob bullshit. Imagine a Harad game where you resist the alliance with Mordor, or as mentioned, something with the Blue Wizards (their names are unfortunately tied up with the Silmarillion rights so they can't be explored). Or a game from a dwarf perspective. But no, we must have either Aragorn or a discount Aragorn clone.

 

[Forceatowulf]

The excuses in this thread to downplay that racist ass author and his blatantly racist horse-shit is hilarious and so god damn predictable.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

"If we are calling Tolkien a card-carrying KKK member based only on that sentence"
No one is doing this.

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

The excuses in this thread to downplay that racist ass author and his blatantly racist horse-shit is hilarious and so god damn predictable.

Thank you for your insightful comment, what do you think about Barinor?

 

[TatteredHat]

Surely Lord of the Rings Online has had black characters before this?

 

[BaasRed]

Lovecraft was a racist and somewhat antisemitic. Tolkien was, at worst, more of a Eurocentric, writing his legendarium from a Western European perspective.

Was he deployed in western Europe? Would make a lot of sense.

 

[EPoch]

I googled sexy Shelob.

I found my answer but I also found this:

I'm not sure what I'm suppose to feel.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Fine with this, as long as it fits the lore. Internal consistency in the universe is number one for me, everything else is secondary.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Surely Lord of the Rings Online has had black characters before this?

Not sure NPC wise, but I do actually remember introducing an online friend to it (who only years later I would learn was black), and she noted personal frustration with how the character creator didn't really go that dark. It's possible it's been tweaked since, particularly as the game as expanded over the years, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the devs stuck to the 'expected' ethnicity range.

Though, trying to find out would be a decent excuse for getting back into the game...

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Was he deployed in western Europe? Would make a lot of sense.

Tolkien fought in WW1, yes. And Christopher Tolkien fought in WW2.

 

[Dmax3901]

So I found the Tolkien scholar mentioned in this article on Twitter and asked her what she thought about lady Shelob.

 

[Papo Swing]

The dude that wrote the Ender's Game series is a big racist which is weird because the sequels deal with other races and stuff that would make me think he was open on that.

I just want to see how they add him to the story. Like is he going to be a southron or of southron ancestry or are they just going to say he is just some dude living in the North? Being Shadow of Mordor I hope they actually do that story justice.