• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Shadow of War sold ~ 400.000 copies on Steam in 7 days.

This reviewer thinks that lootboxes are a major problem. He gave the game 70% largely because of them.

http://ragequit.gr/reviews/item/middle-earth-shadow-of-war-pc-review-english-review

At the later Stages, enemy Orc Leaders are so powerful (the Level Cap is at 60, with later Leaders also having the "Legendary" attribute which makes them even more powerful) that we are left with 2 options:

1) Invest lots of time and effort before each Siege to "farm" new and more powerful Orc Leaders, level up our existing Leaders, or buy new "Normal/Rare" ones by spending Mirian to purchase Silver Lootboxes. And, of course, grind XP in order to level up Talion.

2) Buy the OTHER kind of Lootboxes using real money, and instantly acquire Legendary Gear and Orc Leaders, as well as XP Boosts that allow us to progress more rapidly towards the game's ending.

TL;DR: in order to reach THE GAME'S ENDING, we either have to spend endless hours grinding and farming XP and Orc Leaders to become powerful enough to win 20 Sieges in Act 4, or take a shortcut by buying "Premium Lootboxes" which give us the means to reach the ending much faster.
 
I don't like the game but that actually made me lol. 😂

The eating poop metaphor is a classic.

Shit eating metaphor is outrageous because the logical fallacy that you need to own and first hand experience something to criticise it is equally outrageous and doubly more stupid. Entertainment can not be criticized without experience? Not when moral pitfalls are involved for example; I dont need to shoot an animal to be against wildlife hunting or gun ownership just as I dont need to indulge in lootbox games to be against their shady predatory nature.

As for everyone saying its not a must to buy the lootboxes; why are they in there then? If they do not offer a way around incessant grind why would anyone buy them? Simple logic dictates some frustrating grind must be in the game for this concept to have a raison detre. And you know what it is there in chapter 4. Way into the game at a point where most pepple defending it havent gotten to yet; at a point where you are hopefully too invested to back out or so the publisher hopes.
 
Shit eating metaphor is outrageous because the logical fallacy that you need to own and first hand experience something to criticise it is equally outrageous and doubly more stupid. Entertainment can not be criticized without experience? Not when moral pitfalls are involved for example; I dont need to shoot an animal to be against wildlife hunting or gun ownership just as I dont need to indulge in lootbox games to be against their shady predatory nature.

As for everyone saying its not a must to buy the lootboxes; why are they in there then? If they do not offer a way around incessant grind why would anyone buy them? Simple logic dictates some frustrating grind must be in the game for this concept to have a raison detre. And you know what it is there in chapter 4. Way into the game at a point where most pepple defending it havent gotten to yet; at a point where you are hopefully too invested to back out or so the publisher hopes.

Again, cause and effect is something totally different than providing insight on how a system affects a game that you haven’t played. I wouldn’t go throwing out the bag of insults if you can’t comprehend that your little comparisons don’t have anything to do with what we’re talking about. I don’t know why you’re trying to take the intellectual high ground and going on about logic when what you’re saying is silly to begin with.

In regards to your second paragraph, you’re free to think that, but you don’t know for sure because you haven’t played the game. Anything you’re sharing is just something you’ve heard. In any case, it isn’t worth arguing further if you think that knowing a poke in the eye will hurt is the same thing as providing an uninformed opinion on how lootbox elements affect a specific game over a long period of time.
 
Oh yeah my ideas based on what I know is worth shit to you and your experience with it should be golden to me.. why? Who are you to me? Do you even know your tolerance for grind and lootboxes is indicative of mine or any others in fact? That road goes both ways my friend. Your experience is just as neglegible if we decide to find ways to ignore arguments against things we like. I dont need to experience its effect to know its effect and I dont need to experience the effect to be against the cause on principle. But you are free to ignore that and try to make it all an argument about whether its agreeable to you or not and act like thats all that matters. Hide behind a logical fallacy and enjoy your lootbox filled games.
 

bugulu

Member
Shit eating metaphor is outrageous because the logical fallacy that you need to own and first hand experience something to criticise it is equally outrageous and doubly more stupid. Entertainment can not be criticized without experience? Not when moral pitfalls are involved for example; I dont need to shoot an animal to be against wildlife hunting or gun ownership just as I dont need to indulge in lootbox games to be against their shady predatory nature.

As for everyone saying it's not a must to buy the lootboxes; why are they in there then? If they do not offer a way around incessant grind why would anyone buy them? Simple logic dictates some frustrating grind must be in the game for this concept to have a raison detre. And you know what it is there in chapter 4. Way into the game at a point where most pepple defending it havent gotten to yet; at a point where you are hopefully too invested to back out or so the publisher hopes.

Yes, I saw the infamous Shadow Wars where you have to fight ten stages of defense battles. But in what way would loot boxes make that less grinding? Because you have higher level orcs? You'll still have to go through each stage that takes a decent amount of time, if anything, it's a bad level design. The higher level orcs can be achieved without having to resort to grinding nor buying loot boxes.
I'm currently level 56 and have yet to reach chapter 3; I have several war chiefs defending my fortresses that are more than level 50 due to me shunning them from my army and letting them kill me once or twice for the considerable level boost they get.
The main complaint is that you don't have high enough level orcs to reach the true ending. But unless you bumrush through the story, I don't see why people are talking about "endless grinding" or true ending being locked out behind loot boxes.

Unless it's once again hearsay, as a majority of the things that's spouted here on the thread. "I saw someone comment about this on Eurogamer and hence it has to be true".- attitude.

Is there anyone here who's reached Shadow Wars, who's upset about loot boxes and think that a true ending either requires a copious amount of grinding or have to purchase the loot boxes?
And if not, people who complain about loot boxes and the true ending locked behind it have absolutely nothing to stand on.
 
Yes, I saw the infamous Shadow Wars where you have to fight ten stages of defense battles. But in what way would loot boxes make that less grinding? Because you have higher level orcs? That can be done without having to resort to buying loot boxes with real money too.
I'm currently level 56 and have yet to reach chapter 3; I have several war chiefs defending my fortresses that are more than level 50 due to me shunning them from my army and letting them kill me once or twice for the considerable level boost they get.
The main complaint is that you don't have high enough level orcs to reach the true ending. But unless you bumrush through the story, I don't see why people are talking about "endless grinding" or true ending being locked out behind loot boxes.

Unless it's once again hearsay, as a majority of the things that's spouted here on the thread. "I saw someone comment about this on Eurogamer and hence it has to be true".- attitude.

Is there anyone here who's reached Shadow Wars, who's upset about loot boxes and think that a true ending either requires a copious amount of grinding or have to purchase the loot boxes?
And if not, people who complain about loot boxes and the true ending locked behind it have absolutely nothing to stand on.

See the review posted at the top of the page.
 
Oh yeah my ideas based on what I know is worth shit to you and your experience with it should be golden to me.. why? Who are you to me? Do you even know your tolerance for grind and lootboxes is indicative of mine or any others in fact? That road goes both ways my friend. Your experience is just as neglegible if we decide to find ways to ignore arguments against things we like. Good luck with that. Hide behind a logical fallacy and enjoy your lootbox filled games.

Oh boy...If you play it and you find that it doesn’t meet your tolerance, then that is more than fair. Until then, you’re talking out of your rear. Anyhow, no need to go in circles over it further as you’re just all over the place at this point. You keep fighting the good fight!

See the review posted at the top of the page.

Whoa, hold up. What’s that review matter? What would he know about our tolerances? Using your logic now. I guess you only like opinions that confirm your own bias.
 

Cantaim

Banned
Not too surprised Warner Bros has been killing it this gen. Seriously did not expect them to have this good of a read on what the gaming market wants going into this gen.
 

bugulu

Member
See the review posted at the top of the page.

I'll read through it in an hour or two since I'm heading to work now, but a quick glance is that he's ranting about loot boxes since he didn't even bother to reach a high enough level in the first place. When complaining about grinding, and the enemies being so powerful, and him having to grind Talion even to reach that level, he probably ignored the whole Nemesis system altogether and just rushed through the story.

But I'll read through it more thoroughly when I arrive.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Simple logic dictates some frustrating grind must be in the game for this concept to have a raison detre. And you know what it is there in chapter 4. Way into the game at a point where most pepple defending it havent gotten to yet; at a point where you are hopefully too invested to back out or so the publisher hopes.

Yet the actual facts is that MTs are often just tacked on at the end after the games are developed, not designed around them. No, there doesn't need to be a "raison detre" other than just putting something that costs money in the game. There is craploads of games out there with meaningless MTs that didn't affect the game.
I've reached chapter 4. There is no "frustrating grind" involved.
 
This reviewer thinks that lootboxes are a major problem. He gave the game 70% largely because of them.

http://ragequit.gr/reviews/item/middle-earth-shadow-of-war-pc-review-english-review

I can't relate at all.

As someone who played on the hardest difficulty and spent barely any time "farming" orcs, I reached the end of the game without much difficulty.

Seriously, I was defending fortresses with Orc teams almost 20 levels below the opposing team at times, and I still managed to win battles without any frustration. You have to work harder for your victories, but it's very much possible. I was never put into a situation that forced me to grind and level up my orc team. It'll make the fights easier, but I never felt it was required. And really, by the time you reach the Shadow Wars, you should be pretty much maxed on skills and basically know how to play the game from top to bottom.

Again, I did this all on the hardest difficulty. The Nemesis mode is a huge step up from normal, so I could only imagine that people playing on the other difficulties would have a much easier time of reaching the end.

I never ever felt any desire to buy lootboxes in this game. Seriously, if you're having trouble, just lower the game difficulty (you can switch it on the fly.). I don't see how grinding or lootboxes could cross a person's mind for this game.
 
This is a no hype game that in the end will sell poorly against silly projections. Likely never see another one but we might see a desperate attempt to do some weird MMO or F2P thing - give it a 50/50 shot.

But seriously it’s done.
 

Rizific

Member
All the loot box rage is hilarious to me. It's actually amazing to me how people completely lose their shit over it while I'm over here just enjoying the game and not buying loot boxes. I enjoyed the first one, but this one is much better in basically every way.
 

bugulu

Member
See the review posted at the top of the page.

I just read it now. I usually dismiss people that describe things like cancer as I find these people ignorant, obnoxious and I wouldn't even want to interact with them in real life. But I did say I would read through the review, and so I did.

At the end of Act 3, Talion has conquered 5 Fortresses in the game's 5 provinces. Then, Act 4, titled Shadow Wars, begins. Here, Sauron's Orc Leaders attack our Fortresses and we must defend them (or, if we lose a siege, work towards recapturing them). This Act essentially consists of 10 Stages - in Stages 1 to 4 we have to defend a single Fortress from the enemy's attacks, and after Stage 5 the sieges increase (so we must defend several Fortresses during each Stage in order to advance to the next). After completing all 10 Stages, we see the game's "real ending" and the end-game credits.

As I said previously, this sounds like a shitty level design. But I still don't see why you would need to buy those loot boxes, or if you don't buy it, you're "forced" to "grind" endless hours to achieve the same result. Looking at the screenshot he presented, he's fighting level 35-40+ ish captains which I suppose is one of the earlier phases as the Eurogamer article, shows captains that are level 57 which is probably one of the latter if not the last stage.
Naturally, as we progress from one Stage to the next, the enemy Orc Leaders increase in Level and power, and so we must level up our Leaders or try to Dominate new, more powerful ones, in addition to leveling up Talion (since we can't Dominate orcs whose level is higher than our own).

At the later Stages, enemy Orc Leaders are so powerful (the Level Cap is at 60, with later Leaders also having the "Legendary" attribute which makes them even more powerful) that we are left with 2 options:

1) Invest lots of time and effort before each Siege to "farm" new and more powerful Orc Leaders, level up our existing Leaders, or buy new "Normal/Rare" ones by spending Mirian to purchase Silver Lootboxes. And, of course, grind XP in order to level up Talion.

2) Buy the OTHER kind of Lootboxes using real money, and instantly acquire Legendary Gear and Orc Leaders, as well as XP Boosts that allow us to progress more rapidly towards the game's ending.

TL;DR: in order to reach THE GAME'S ENDING, we either have to spend endless hours grinding and farming XP and Orc Leaders to become powerful enough to win 20 Sieges in Act 4, or take a shortcut by buying "Premium Lootboxes" which give us the means to reach the ending much faster.

And here's the issue, he doesn't have high enough leveled captains to do the battle nor is Talion, by the looks of it, not even close to reaching that level and thus, have to resort to massive grinding.

Now, we have no idea how he played the game. He has points about the nemesis system being brilliant, but to what extent did he use it?
The main driving point of the first and this game is all about the combat, the nemesis system and that you kill loads of orcs. The story is fanfiction and has nothing to do with the work of Tolkien, and while it may have some parts that can be considered decent, a majority of them is subpar and lackluster. The characters are undoubtedly unlikeable, and you don't feel a bond them, both Talion and Celebrimbor are major douchebags, the latter is downright evil. As Bruz mentions in one of the earlier segments of the game, "Dark Lord, Bright Lord, what does it matter"? Oh, how right he is.

As I said, I haven't even reached Act 3 yet, I'm level 56, I have high-level war chiefs in my army, and I haven't bought a loot box except with the earned currency through the game.
Did I grind a lot? I wouldn't say so, but others would most likely. I have taken advantage of the nemesis system as that's what, in my opinion, makes the game good. I have shamed and shunned orc chieftains and let them kill me, so they reach a considerable level boost. Does that constitute as grinding? I wouldn't say so, but again, others would.I think that's one of the main parts of the nemesis system, and so I use it, and if people decide to skip it, it's bound to bite them in the ass further int he story.

"Come on guys, Premium Chests are completely optional, no-one's forcing you to buy them", one might say. And he might have a point, if we're talking about Chests being implemented in a game like Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, which can easily be completed just by doing quests and following the storyline, and where chests are there just to give you a boost that allows you to skip quality side-content and reach the ending faster (why would someone be deranged enough to do that, however, still eludes me). In Shadow of War's case, however, the GAME'S ENDING is locked behind just enough of an endless grindfest in order to justify the inclusion of microtransactions. It's a SHAMEFUL display of greed, unheard-of in the history of single-player games.

And here he manages to contradict himself. I haven't played Mankind Divided yet, (it's in my backlog) but he describes it as the chests giving you a boost that allows you to either skip side-content or reach the ending faster. And that's exactly what the loot boxes in Shadow of War does too; it allows you to skip the nemesis system altogether and just have high-level orcs by your side from the start. I wouldn't want to play a game like that as you would skip the main selling point of the game, and truthfully, it sounds quite boring. Others might enjoy that though and good for them; they have that option to purchase it if they so wish. He doesn't think of it as a problem in Deux Ex but blows it to huge proportions when it comes to Shadow of War.

I suppose we all have different expectations of the game. If your main drive is to just rush through the story and ignoring or not putting enough time on the nemesis system, then you're probably going to have to resort to grinding. But do people buy these types of game for the story? If you want a good story, buy an RPG like Baldur's Gate, not some ARPG where the main focus point is to mash your buttons and kill hordes of orcs.

He does have a point in the rest of his negative critique though. I enjoy the banter the orcs give us, but sometimes, you'll come across something you've heard before, and it would be great to be able to skip it.

I'll make sure to write a new post either here or in the official thread when I'm done with the game and see if my experience has changed.
 

BBboy20

Member
For all the complaints about SoW and loot boxes (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to complain about), this is a good result for the industry right now. If SoW had bombed it would have been another very unfortunate indicator for traditional SP games.
Heh, all the controversies surrounding the game makes you forget that fact.
 

black070

Member
This reviewer thinks that lootboxes are a major problem. He gave the game 70% largely because of them.

http://ragequit.gr/reviews/item/middle-earth-shadow-of-war-pc-review-english-review

I'm on Act 4 currently and that hasn't been my experience - the fortress raids aren't RTS segments, you do the brunt of the work as Talion while your dominated captains are just there to absorb some of the attacks coming your way. I've been going in underleveled and faring just fine.

Also, why is leveling up your captains considered a grind anyways ? Thats the end game, they're releasing a free mode called Infinite Shadow Wars so that you can continue with the fortress invasions beyond act 4.. you're meant to be playing around with the nemesis system and working on your army, that is the game. If you have any compulsion to skip past that then it doesn't sound like the game was for you to begin with.
 

oti

Banned
For all the complaints about SoW and loot boxes (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to complain about), this is a good result for the industry right now. If SoW had bombed it would have been another very unfortunate indicator for traditional SP games.

That said, think about the potential of a connected singleplayer/multiplayer Middle-earth game. 🤔

Player Vs. Player. Real-time battles. That could be where the series is heading next.
 
This is a no hype game that in the end will sell poorly against silly projections. Likely never see another one but we might see a desperate attempt to do some weird MMO or F2P thing - give it a 50/50 shot.

But seriously it’s done.

Is this post serious? I cannot tell if this is in jest or not anymore…
 

kc44135

Member
So what, now people are saying the Loot boxes aren't that bad??? Cuz...

This reviewer thinks that lootboxes are a major problem. He gave the game 70% largely because of them.

http://ragequit.gr/reviews/item/middle-earth-shadow-of-war-pc-review-english-review
...articles and videos like this are what I saw prior to release, and made me decide to pass on the game. This isn't the case? You don't have to grind to Mordor and back to finish the game without buying a Lootbox?
 

benzopil

Member
So what, now people are saying the Loot boxes aren't that bad??? Cuz...


...articles and videos like this are what I saw prior to release, and made me decide to pass on the game. This isn't the case? You don't have to grind to Mordor and back to finish the game without buying a Lootbox?
Trophyhunter PowerPyx spend 6 hours in last act without byuing anything. He got a platinum in 4 days. So there's nothing too grindy in this game, final act is just kinda boring. But before that the game is really really great.
 

bugulu

Member
So what, now people are saying the Loot boxes aren't that bad??? Cuz...


...articles and videos like this are what I saw prior to release, and made me decide to pass on the game. This isn't the case? You don't have to grind to Mordor and back to finish the game without buying a Lootbox?

Correct. What can be argued is that the last act sucks and is just prolonged for the sake of it, but that's a whole different matter than being forced to buy loot boxes.

And you can still get loot boxes, but just with the in-game currency. The silver currency is easily attainable, and you receive a few gold coins when doing the daily challenges.
 
Top Bottom