One major issue I immediately see, is that the areas of STEM that women might actually have greater numbers were the areas that can't be included in the study. Journals like JAMA and NEJM are alphabetical. We know from recent med school, nursing, and biomedical science graduate school rates that women are very well represented.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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Not sure I follow entirely. Heroin in a vacuum is not harmful to society.
Could you not argue that sexually objectifying imagery helps to reinforce a particular view in society?
So the shirt itself would not be viewed as sexist then? It is just the time and place in which he wore it?
Yes. And again, that he wore it and that no one flagged it as a problem are the indicators people are focusing on.
Okay.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
This is the exact issue I keep getting angry about. Instead of addressing or discussing the very obvious and serious problems with gender representation in a host of STEM majors or the very damaging biases that female students face in hiring/pay, we focus entirely on criticizing the one study I happened to include that examines a side issue of citation bias. Is that really more relevant and important to the discussion then everything else i posted about? Is "Not All Majors" going to become the new 'not all men'?
I'm starting to think that if I hadn't included that study, no one would have even quoted me at all because then they would have been forced to address the other issue/studies I posted about instead of having a punching bag they could use to try to invalidate the problem at large. God forbid we actually admit and discuss the problems women face and how they might have to be addressed on a societal and individual level.
Well, some people did talk about the feelings of the woman that gave him the shirt. But apparently no one cares about her either. So shameful.
Kano on the Phone
Member
Is she a woman in STEM or going into STEM? Why does it matter other than as a cheap way to dismiss an argument?
The woman who made the shirt keeps getting brought up and yet no one has been able to explain how that's relevant. I'm really excited for you to break the streak.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
As far as I can tell, her feelings were only ever brought in as a way to defeat talk of misogyny, and doing that doesn't make any sense anyway.
sandalphon
Member
40+ pages thread!
Well, let me just begin with defending the shirt. I'm sure no one has pointed out how benign it is. It is also important to stress that the poor man's feelings have been hurt until he cried. He's the real victim here. This demonstrates bullying and how frothing and terrifyingly out of touch feminism is!
Clearly, you need to be told how to feminism right. As a man, I will take on this heavy burden and delineate how this trivial matter of a shirt that does not offend me should also not offend anyone else in the entire world. Crying over drawings of sexy women in lingerie will actually hurt feminism. I know. Because I say so.
Look, the shirt was made by a woman. This gives the shirt Free Pass, because all women feel and think the same. And if one woman okays this shirt, every other woman who disagrees is in the wrong. I would like to remind all of you again that the real victim here is the shirt.
I know that some of you ladies are very delicate and you can't cope with the centuries of established practice that your images are belong to us. But the important thing is that we agree that nothing should change. If you simply pull up your big girls' pants, you can get into STEM and other men-dominated spaces and there are no reasons why you should feel out of place, even if we are displaying our superior gentlemen's flamboyance with your bodies drawn in sexy poses.
Lastly, I want to say that I am above being offended by this shirt because I live in the real world where I am the alpha male every day and all of you must be living across the screen where it is not Kansas anymore where you are demanding the unreasonable behaviours of people being decent at each other. You are all whiteknighting betas.
Remember: the real tragedy is that we may not be able to wear this shirt that I dont even have. Think about that, you villains.
Peace out.
Well, let me just begin with defending the shirt. I'm sure no one has pointed out how benign it is. It is also important to stress that the poor man's feelings have been hurt until he cried. He's the real victim here. This demonstrates bullying and how frothing and terrifyingly out of touch feminism is!
Clearly, you need to be told how to feminism right. As a man, I will take on this heavy burden and delineate how this trivial matter of a shirt that does not offend me should also not offend anyone else in the entire world. Crying over drawings of sexy women in lingerie will actually hurt feminism. I know. Because I say so.
Look, the shirt was made by a woman. This gives the shirt Free Pass, because all women feel and think the same. And if one woman okays this shirt, every other woman who disagrees is in the wrong. I would like to remind all of you again that the real victim here is the shirt.
I know that some of you ladies are very delicate and you can't cope with the centuries of established practice that your images are belong to us. But the important thing is that we agree that nothing should change. If you simply pull up your big girls' pants, you can get into STEM and other men-dominated spaces and there are no reasons why you should feel out of place, even if we are displaying our superior gentlemen's flamboyance with your bodies drawn in sexy poses.
Lastly, I want to say that I am above being offended by this shirt because I live in the real world where I am the alpha male every day and all of you must be living across the screen where it is not Kansas anymore where you are demanding the unreasonable behaviours of people being decent at each other. You are all whiteknighting betas.
Remember: the real tragedy is that we may not be able to wear this shirt that I dont even have. Think about that, you villains.
Peace out.
/satire
Okay, I'm going to take a shot at this. The reason everyone is latching onto Matt Taylor's feelings is because rightly or wrongly he was made the central human figure here. If you Google this mess, his is the name that is going to come up nine times out of ten. Empathy is much easier when you have an actual human presence to identify with and when people look into this just a little bit, which is all most people are going to do, they are going to see Matt Taylor breaking down in tears and apologizing because he wore a shirt some people didn't like.
They aren't going to see the women who have struggled to make waves in the field arguably due to a culture of institutionalized sexism, they are invisible here hidden behind a man breaking down in tears at a moment that should be a great triumph in his life. Whether or not you believe that is the case, that is what the surface appearance is to a lot of people, because the central figure in this discussion was not Jane Taylor, the woman who had more roadblocks than the average man to becoming a great scientist because she also had to struggle against a sexist institution, it is a Matt Taylor breaking down in tears.
I know your gut reaction is to go, yeah, but that's just the surface appearance, I can't believe all these ignorant morons who won't even read into the issue and see all these terrible issues that women in STEM face. But guess what, that's the vast majority of people. Most people are just trying to get through the day while earning enough for themselves and families (if they have one) to get by. They either don't have the time or the will to dig deeply into an issue like this and as a consequence, whether we like it or not, surface appearances matter. I know shit like this gets the easy headlines and the publicity, but much like Matt Taylor's shirt I have to wonder if they aren't inadvertently sending the wrong message to the public.
Dice//
Banned
Haha, wow, yeah I think you hit every comment that the people who have Post Count of 1 in here have said.
GameGuru59
Banned
Why shouldn't it be? (within reason) When people are more comfortable at work, they are more productive. One could argue that its in the employer's interest to allow for self expression.article said:
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Please think about this statement from a perspective outside of your own.
A great, very nuanced take which I was going to quote a bunch of times below but I ended up almost quoting the entire thing because I love every single letter of that article. You should really read it.
GameGuru59
Banned
Because other people might be offended or harmed in some way by wearing whatever you want to work? (and I understand, that some places need to require uniforms for safety and whatnot, lets assume I'm not talking about those jobs) I don't think that in and of itself is a valid reason to not allow someone to wear something to work. As long as its within reason, things that are offensive to colleagues can be negotiated within the workplace. What's worse (to me) is to remove individual character in the pursuit of professionalism. Professionalism is a fake facade that is oppressive of all people, men and women.
Whenever I am confused about gamergate or this or other social justice-y type things, I find popehat tends to verbalize my thoughts in a much more cogent manner than I ever could.
Dice//
Banned
Really no point going on here.
@Cybit: Great link out, btw. Real fun and interesting read
"Our employers generally get to set a dress code. This is actually not fascism."
(I'm just going to quote things from the excellent popehat article as my responses from here on out)
And it also manages to be funny. If I didn't love that article so much I would hate whomever wrote it since it's just better than anything I can ever manage.
GameGuru59
Banned
I know, because it's true. Even if you aren't aware of it.
Really no point going on here.
@Cybit: Great link out, btw. Real fun and interesting read
I never said it was facism. I said it was oppressive. Its not to the extent that I'm a jew in Hitler's Germany, but I do find it really fucking annoying that I have to dress up for work, when I could perform my job just as well in shorts and a tee.
Really no point going on here.
@Cybit: Great link out, btw. Real fun and interesting read
Thank you! I find myself in an uncomfortable middle during most of these kinds of debates; while I understand and generally agree (I'm a tree hugging hippie) where the feminist / leftist side is coming from; I find myself cringing at the similarities of the statements & thought processes used by them as they condemn sexism to the very people they are rightfully condemning. Just because I agree with them doesn't mean that they're allowed to do the same crap I dislike the people I disagree with doing, basically.
(This is probably heavily influenced by the fact that 50% of my close friends I disagree virulently with politically, but I refuse to demonize them and thus am exposed to much of the failings of both sides)
That's what I like about Popehat (especially Ken); he can verbalize my reservations about the whole mess without necessarily casting aspersions on one side or the other.
Would my #KillAllMen shirt make you uncomfortable.
GameGuru59
Banned
No, I would actually probably find you more interesting because of it.
Dice//
Banned
Don't feed the troll, Opto.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Not me. I think it would just let people know you're not the most humorous person in the room and not to interact with you. That way you don't have to hear anything that might clash with your world view. Isn't that a good thing?
boy were you ever right
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Excellent read <3 Thank you so much for sharing! Well thought out and very eloquent and very funny too
And so very rational ! I've bookmarked it
Dice//
Banned
GameGuru59
Banned
I'm not a troll, and I kind of take exception to being called one. I'm honestly engaging in the discussion, and find your responses interesting. Even though it may not seem like it, I do think about you guys' arguments alot, and think you have some valid points. I just fundementally disagree with your conclusions. Unlike alot of posters, I've actually read the whole thread, and I think there is some truth in the argument that women are slightly disuaded from being in STEM fields due to culture, of which this shirt is a symptom. I just don't think the shirt in and of itself is worthy of condemnation due to the fact I think the benefits of free expression in the workplace oughtweigh the cost of slightly dissuading women from being there. There are ways of encouraging women to be in STEM that would far outweigh banning (explicitly or implicitly) clothing.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It seems clear at this point you're projecting your personal feelings about your own life and job onto this completely different public situation.
Phil Plait tackles the shirt
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astr...sexism_when_a_shirt_is_more_than_a_shirt.html
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astr...sexism_when_a_shirt_is_more_than_a_shirt.html
Ironically, this reminds me of a time where an author basically pulled the "But don't focus on that part" to comments I made as a reviewer. Don't think that article got accepted.
This isn't a bad post, your arguments are cohesive and your point is relatively well made. The problem is that I can't take any of your complaints about "banning" clothing seriously because you posted this:
Comparing the worst thing that humanity has ever done to having to follow a dress code is insane. Please do not do that ever again.
GameGuru59
Banned
Uh.. re-read the post? The entire point of the sentance was to say the two wren't comparable. Like the author said, dress codes aren't comparable to fascism.
Here is what you said:
That is comparing having to follow a dress code to the single worst thing humanity has ever done. Don't do that.
GameGuru59
Banned
That's not a comparison. I said something (Hitler's Germany) is not like something else (dress codes). I'm saying the two are not comparable, or are in any remote way the same level of oppression. Just because people who compare things to Hitler are (usually) wrong, doesn't mean it's never okay to bring up Hitler ever as a rehtorical device. Can I say "Voldermort?" Maybe its because in both my poli sci under grad and my public admin grad courses that we bring up Hitler and Nazis all the time as a point of historical analysis that I'm de-sensetized to using his name in casual discussion?
Yes it is. You are saying "it is not as bad as this thing, but". That is comparing it.
Of course you can use Hitler's name or compare things to Nazi Germany, but unless your dress code somehow involves the persecution of minorities you shouldn't compare the "oppression" you feel from adhering to a dress code to the single worst thing humanity has done.
Here I made a Venn diagram for you explaining the situation in full:
I would read this quote from her and consider who you're trying to have an engaging discussion with.
That was an interesting read, aside from his point about responding to people doing threats, by going into the vigilantism area somewhat.
On the one hand i get where he's coming from, but on the other hand, i really don't trust the collective to know the limits of decency, because of points he himself made in the piece.
And i'm thinking of the Boston bombing and the infamous Reddit hunt for the terrorist, as an example of how good intentions can get out of hand.
GameGuru59
Banned
I only wrote it that way because the original author "compared" (not really) dress codes to fascism. If I say "It's not like they're apples, but oranges also taste good" does that imply that I think apples are similar to oranges, or that they taste the same? The only way you could say I was comparing the dress codes to Hitler is if you took the sentance to mean that I'm saying that they both institute the same level of oppression- but I'm not doing that. Like the original author, I'm saying one level of oppression is much worse and not comparable to the other. And I agree with your diagram.
No he didn't, he said that dress codes aren't fascism, he did not make any comparison of any sort.
com·pare | verb | \kəm-ˈper\
- to say that (something) is similar to something else
- to look at (two or more things) closely in order to see what is similar or different about them or in order to decide which one is better
- to be as good or as bad as something else : to be on the same level or in the same category as something else
In your example you compare apples and oranges and you say that apples tastes better.
No it isn't.
The original author is not agreeing with your assertion that dress codes are oppression. Nor am I.
Are you aware that when you are saying that one level of oppression is much worse than another that you are comparing the levels of oppression? You are comparing the "oppression" that you have to "suffer" through by adhering to a dress code to the oppression felt by Jews during the single worst thing humanity has ever done. You shouldn't have done that.
I find it sad you think feminism winning is somehow a ridiculous notion
So essentially, yes. Rhetorical dancing aside, the target has been Matt Taylor, and subconscious or otherwise, the charge misogyny. Rather than see a brilliant colorful guy who just helped make something very cool possible, it's more important to raise this shirtstorm over something that even if a problem exists, this is an insignificant example of it.
I find censorship a ridiculous notion. Or rather that you feel righteous enough to dictate clothing choices. I'm sure the people who don't want Mohammad cartoons drawn are equally sure of their position... same for the Moral Majority who dont want sex and violence on TV or video games. There are always justifications. I'm sure you're a good person it's just I dont think you're persuadable.
You have someone who was striking a fairly conciliatory tone here, who agrees with a lot of what you have to say, but with reasonable difference of opinion. Why not work with him on that common ground instead of berating him for what is perhaps a somewhat off-color statement, but not especially out of the ordinary for internet vernacular? At worst, what he said was essentially, "yeah I agree with your quote that dress codes aren't fascism, I'm not saying it was bad as this specific extreme example of fascism or anything as ridiculous as that." Is the end goal of this discussion to convince people or pummel them into submission? Even though I'm inclined to agree that it's possible Matt Taylor's shirt inadvertently sent the wrong message, this is the kind of thing that makes me uneasy about the way events unfolded.
I know beating someone in an argument and trying to get them to see the issue from your point of view can sometimes seem like the same thing, because I've been there and sometimes I unfortunately still subconsciously find myself there even against my better efforts, but they aren't the same thing. I know sometimes I feel so right about something that it is easy to get carried away. Passion becomes like tunnel vision to the point that it's difficult to step outside of your perspective and see why it's so hard for someone else to see things the way you do, but if you really want to win people's hearts and minds empathy is a good first step.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You use "rather" at the start like these are mutually exclusive things.
You're making quite a leap to get to this analogy, but it's also now clear how you're observing this situation and how you're reacting to it.
You either cannot or do not read. I am having trouble imagining anyone misinterpret simple words more thoroughly or with such depth.
How has he been censored. His choice of attire was criticized. Sometimes that changes things.
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