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ShortFatOtaku [Youtuber] conducts text interview with former Volition developer (Saints Row) about what went happen with SR and Volition in general
BaldingAshCrimson
Member
I know that "Progslop" means "(Politically) progressive slop", but saying it like "Prog-Rock" makes it sound funny.
Prog-Slop... It's sophisticated, complex, Slop.
Anyway, I don't care for the "woke" part of this discussion (Not surprised why ShortFatOtaku was giddy to jump into this one), because to me this a "hack" issue.
You can make well written "woke" stories and characters.
And "woke" people have made or were involved in great games.
To name two off the top of my head, Yoshi-P and Yoko Taro.
These are just hacks. And the mismanagement was apparent just looking at the state of the game when it was launched.
With a good portion of their fanbase alienated, I think is better to let Saints Row on hiatus a bit.
Prog-Slop... It's sophisticated, complex, Slop.
Anyway, I don't care for the "woke" part of this discussion (Not surprised why ShortFatOtaku was giddy to jump into this one), because to me this a "hack" issue.
You can make well written "woke" stories and characters.
And "woke" people have made or were involved in great games.
To name two off the top of my head, Yoshi-P and Yoko Taro.
These are just hacks. And the mismanagement was apparent just looking at the state of the game when it was launched.
With a good portion of their fanbase alienated, I think is better to let Saints Row on hiatus a bit.
FeralEcho
Member
I've yet to see a woke game that wouldn't have been better if it wasn't "woke" in the first place.
Spiderman 2 immediately comes to mind,a great game whose subsequent playthroughs are ruined by the constant in your face agendas the game throws at you.It feels like being scolded while you're trying to have fun. The sooner this woke garbage goes away from the industry the better it's gonna be for both developers and gamers.
Laptop1991
Member
What a waste of money and time in the end, but i agree with the last comment about someone making a Saint's Row game in the future with over the top everything and it being really successful, they should of done that with the Saint's Row reboot for me.
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Trekinspace88
Neo Member
Sorry but i hope 'Woke' stays in games. 'Woke' means standing up against racist/bigotry agendas and allowing racist/bigotry agendas to fester rather than fighting them is not a good thing. Games should be embracing what makes us all different to one another and having characters/stories that are 'Woke' and showing the different aspects of humanity is a great thing.
BaldingAshCrimson
Member
Again, you are talking about hacks.
"Woke" writers that throw their "woke" in your face, are hacks.
(Also, Sweet Baby was involved in SM 2, if I'm not mistaken, so double the hacks).
For whatever reason, my comment on another post was deleted, where I mentioned instances of "woke" in games, where no one has or had an issue with. Because it was done and implemented well, and there was no grand standing.
Not gonna mention them, for obvious reasons. But yeah. There are quite a few games you may have played in your life, that were "woke".
But they didn't bother you.
diffusionx
Gold Member
BaldingAshCrimson
Member
lughnasadh123
Member
They were getting feedback that much about the game just didn't look/feel right only to have their social media double down on it.
March Climber
Member
It has happened to me too, although admittedly a few of my deleted posts had heavy sarcasm because of really, really terrible takes here. You just have to be extremely careful and try to sound as neutral as possible when reasonably pointing out what you're trying to point out.
What I've learned very quickly is that some here are very eager to push you over to one side of the fence and stamp a label onto you as quickly as possible.
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DarthPutin
Member
I think we sort of need new terms to differentiate. Art has almost always been progressive and interested in human rights or in search of innovation, one way or another, artists tend to be liberal, bringers of new ideas and uncomfortable questions (obs. exceptions exist, though I would say most great artists ended up with some kind of humanist message, whether it was intended or not).
This new wave of "wokery" doesn't come from the heart of passionate artist so much as is artificially pushed from above, so it (is often) fake and transparent. Or you have artists who push themselves to change their artistic expression "for the cause", ending up as more of propagandists than purely artists (even though their art would be progressive regardless).
Instead of challenging status quo you now have to include set of "progressive" ideas and talking points, thus resulting art becomes part of establishment agenda. New dogma makes people as afraid to try something different or ask tough questions as previous, more conservative could.
Then you have certain "anti-woke" crowd raging against everything that doesn't pander to them precisely, whether it belongs to first category or second.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I'm all for better representation when/where warranted, but this fake performative crap isn't helping anyone.
Isn't the whole value of this stuff based in the idea of reflecting people's reality? That being the case how can this pantomime "poochie the dog" version be fulfilling that purpose? Same deal with "empowerment". How exactly is it empowering to have an ideology rammed down your throat in every escapist entertainment product?
March Climber
Member
I know how you feel as a Red Faction fan. I can just imagine the insane amount of fun from a Red Faction game with today's technology. The franchise didn't make it alive out of the PS360 generation.
Fake
Member
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TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
I think people typically miss the Forest for the trees when it comes to analyzing people's reactions to "woke," and "unwoke," media.
Like, the general consensus with the crowd that thinks we're all problematic is that we all hate diversity and lgbtq shit and anything involving an Empowered woman. Those elements in and of themselves are not woke. Yes, you can make a nail biter page turner of an epic with all of these things present or included in some form or variation. Likewise, you can go the opposite, Saturday Night Live direction and feature as many unwoke ideologies or talking points, but portray in exclusive partisan parody. That the content is present doesn't mean that it's conservative in nature, right? Because they're using these stereotypical depictions of conservative values to incite laughter, or thought, or rage.
That's what woke is. The acquisition and misuse of an otherwise acceptable or, at the very least, non-offensive ideas or values. A piece of media starring a lesbian whose black and a double amputee isn't woke. The posturing of the narrative, the themes of the work, and how these disparate elements coagulate together to essentially create a wedge in society - that's woke. Being woke isn't having homosexual characters. It's in the sassy, bitter way they then portray other walks of life in the same work.
Your lesbian main character will like the clit just as much if she's working with or around white male characters who aren't portrayed as: a redneck, a MAGA nut, a Nazi, a racist, inbred, wigger, drug addict, a fool, etc. Woke is the narrative pitfall of trying to elevate characters and ideas without any of the Hard work of actually writing a functional, Air tight plot that naturally conveys this idea, but instead creating the lazy man's version of the same result by actively demeaning or writing other characters so badly/antagonistically that the lesbian main character could literally be a serial killer by trade and is still miles above other characters in terms of purity and integrity.
That's bad writing, first and foremost, but if Bad Writing were an album and I was working at an FYE or some shit, I'd definitely put Woke down as a subgenre.
Like, the general consensus with the crowd that thinks we're all problematic is that we all hate diversity and lgbtq shit and anything involving an Empowered woman. Those elements in and of themselves are not woke. Yes, you can make a nail biter page turner of an epic with all of these things present or included in some form or variation. Likewise, you can go the opposite, Saturday Night Live direction and feature as many unwoke ideologies or talking points, but portray in exclusive partisan parody. That the content is present doesn't mean that it's conservative in nature, right? Because they're using these stereotypical depictions of conservative values to incite laughter, or thought, or rage.
That's what woke is. The acquisition and misuse of an otherwise acceptable or, at the very least, non-offensive ideas or values. A piece of media starring a lesbian whose black and a double amputee isn't woke. The posturing of the narrative, the themes of the work, and how these disparate elements coagulate together to essentially create a wedge in society - that's woke. Being woke isn't having homosexual characters. It's in the sassy, bitter way they then portray other walks of life in the same work.
Your lesbian main character will like the clit just as much if she's working with or around white male characters who aren't portrayed as: a redneck, a MAGA nut, a Nazi, a racist, inbred, wigger, drug addict, a fool, etc. Woke is the narrative pitfall of trying to elevate characters and ideas without any of the Hard work of actually writing a functional, Air tight plot that naturally conveys this idea, but instead creating the lazy man's version of the same result by actively demeaning or writing other characters so badly/antagonistically that the lesbian main character could literally be a serial killer by trade and is still miles above other characters in terms of purity and integrity.
That's bad writing, first and foremost, but if Bad Writing were an album and I was working at an FYE or some shit, I'd definitely put Woke down as a subgenre.
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BaldingAshCrimson
Member
Oh, I came off a bit passionate about the topic in that one comment, so that was probably it...
Sound more "academic" next time to not tik them off (I'm not trying to sound snarky, I mean that, it made no sense. If what I said was stupid, people here would totally respond to it).
March Climber
Member
The emotional part is the problem. The more people here get upset, the more pointed and angrier their posts become, and then suddenly you don't see them posting anymore. Even laughing too much at bad posts can get you in hot water, so I've cooled off a bit on that too. So it's best to just try as hard as possible to be neutral (Much like a gentleman's debate), unless it's something where people can tell you're excited or passionate about it.
Even the solution isn't a full guaranteed success but it at least gives you better odds. It helps to have thick skin made of iron.
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bitbydeath
Member
You’re wrong.
Imagine if woke meant putting blonde hair and blue eye people in every game, that’s what’s going on here. You might think that’s great because they were under represented but all I can see is history repeating.
BaldingAshCrimson
Member
Nier AutomataThis is like poetry.
Every mainline King of Fighters game from 96 onwards.
Celeste
Final Fantasy 7, 9, 8, 12 14 and 16.
Dragon Quest 4 and 11.
Guilty Gear Strive
Wolfenstein New Order and Old Blood.
Street Fighter Thid Strike and 6.
Final Fantasy 9 (edit: Said it twice, my bad)
Jeanne D'arc
Streets of Rage 4.
Resident Evil 3.
I can't point out the reasons why each are woke (Again, my comment on another post got deleted because of that), but all of them have "woke" aspects, either open ones, or implemented in a way to be seen as normal. Not to stand out in a way to grand-stand or masturbate to the audience.
Rather they are good or not, that's completely up to you. Taste in games are subjective after all.
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Buggy Loop
Member
Can’t believe what they did to that team
Descent & Freespace are such key franchises in the genre that only mismanagement can fuck it up
They went to chase console games as if PC had a super crash or something early 2000’s when we had the likes of Half Life 2 in the pipeline.
Freespace team was long gone by saints row time.
Red5
Member
Yep, they had Descent, Freespace, Summoner and Red Faction yet they thought Saint's Row was the best of the bunch.
And ironically the best Saint's Row was SR4 the complete opposite of SR reboot.
Fredrik
Member
Then why are you posting several long posts about it?
I haven’t played the new Saints Row but from what I’ve heard it’s pushing progressive western political agendas in a too obvious way. To no surprise people don’t like that. Bad analogy but it’s like Jehovas Witnesses knocking on people’s doors expecting to be welcomed with open arms to save someone’s soul. How often does that work?
People usually don’t want to have stuff pushed in their face. Devs just need to chill on politics and let games be games. Pushing political agendas in people’s escapism and entertainment always seemed dumb imo.
ProtoByte
Member
You can make great stories with "woke" elements in spite of said elements. The second that the politics themselves become the baseline for the plot, worldbuilding and/or characters, it falls to shit.
Not to get overly political here, but "woke" ideology and politics are bad. Like, on a logical level, before even getting into the results of its practical implementation. It's not even consistent with itself.
March Climber
Member
Because people are replying to him with counterpoint takes and it's better for himself and anyone entering the thread for him to respond and clarify his own original take, than to leave everyone else on ignore.Then why are you posting several long posts about it?
Its funny because Celeste really wasnt woke until later, playing the base game its just about climbing the mountain of anxiety and depression, learning to accept those parts of you and climb the mountain anyway. Base play through is just a great lesson.
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I would argue Yoko Taro/Yoshi-P didn't make "woke" anything. Nothing in their games are slacktivist-bent, heavy handed lectures, nor are their characters one dimensional tokens. Instead, they wrote characters with nuance, they had progressive themes but weren't trying to lecture the player. They were more interested in telling an engrossing tale with a diverse set of characters than hitting checkboxes mandated by some outside company or review board to score social media points/ESG checks.
It is akin to comparing classic Star Trek (TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager) to "modern" Trek (Discovery, Picard, Strange New Worlds). Or comparing classic Doctor Who (Doctors 1-11) and the more recent Doctor Who series (12-15)
Woke is just another term for slacktivism. They don't want to make nuanced characters, they instead want to make characters who are only their immutable characteristic. They don't want to create new stories, they instead want to change existing ones and alter races/sexes in one direction. They don't want to actually have nuanced arguments or morally gray narratives, they want to hit you over the head that their moral stance is the only right one and everyone else is bad for thinking otherwise.
Only two games from your list could be considered as slacktivist or slacktivist-related and that was due to alterations after their releases, not things always planned for development.
Guilty Gear Strive started well, but the creator went full slacktivist with writing of Bridget, removing any character development that existed for decades prior and turning them into a literal groomed character who was forced to believe they were a girl so they eventually did believe it. This was confirmed through Japanese message boards after a developer came out and provided info on the last minute changes (also hence why the Japanese version is so strangely worded compared to the western version, as that was closer to the original intent). Sadly I can't find these messages any longer.
Celeste was a wonderful start that told a narrative that was vague enough that anyone of various groups could identify with to forcibly changing it, after the fact, to a very specific situation that few would be able to identify with. Something that, having spoken to one of the developers shortly after it was "announced" was never the plan. It was only done so due to the outcry from a specific small segment of people online and a particular group of people in the company.
You seem to confuse progressive writing is the same as being "woke", which was never the case.
squarealex
Member
Oof
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semiconscious
Member
my biggest problem with saints row (& its sister release, gotham knights) was going with kidult protagonists, with 'kidult' meaning a twenty-something you could mistake for a teen, as opposed to a twenty-something you could mistake for a thirty-something (aka 'adult). I think there's just something off-putting about kidults, people who've never had to grow up, & therefore never actually do, because there's an implicit sense of privilege attached. I don't find kidults to be so much despicable as just sorta vapid, & lacking any kind of genuine core, or character. iow, not the kinds of protagonists i'd particularly want to spend time playing as (or listening to)...
Guilty_AI
Member
More common than people think. Many devs are bred into game jams and events where you must pander to committees and sponsors. Not to mention the cliques that end up forming within universities.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
The essence of wokeness is to deperson you and label you a bigot when you resist.
TheGrat1
Member
Yeah, this part really killed me. When people are more concerned with performative art or making a point than actually making a quality product that can actually sell, and those people are enabled within the company, then that company is doomed. I do not care what agenda or style you are trying to push, if that is more important to you than making a good game then leave and make your own game instead of dragging down a company that people rely on to pay their rent.This is like poetry.
That tweet @ 3:25 illustrates why this is particularly dangerous. Because typically people with that mindset are not being malicious. They wholeheartedly believe that their vision is what is best and no amount of negative feedback can deter them, right until the bitter end.
Majima Everywhere System
Member
Woke is a lot like sexuality, it defines some people’s existence. I think most people were never that interested in to begin with, just try to be kind to others, and it’s not something you write an entertaining story about.
So when every story is a graduate level course on sex and race, normies get disinterested.
Dad of War is a similar turn off, why would I need a game to be DADactic, when I soak it up every day. Also sorry your dad died I guess, but that isn’t even interesting to your close friends.
So when every story is a graduate level course on sex and race, normies get disinterested.
Dad of War is a similar turn off, why would I need a game to be DADactic, when I soak it up every day. Also sorry your dad died I guess, but that isn’t even interesting to your close friends.
BaldingAshCrimson
Member
First time was explaining why It doesn't matter to this topic, due to me believing that it has to do with hacks, not woke people.Then why are you posting several long posts about it?
And the other times was responding to people who focused on that part of my comment.
There's not much of a point to me replying to you, it was a weak gatcha.
But I can't stop myself sometimes.
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BaldingAshCrimson
Member
I don't disagree, depending on how it's handled.
Can't say anything about this one, sorry about that.
StueyDuck
Member
I agree... but... the issue stems from woke people not really being very skilled/inventive/creative or ambitious.
So like naturally games with wokeness won't be better without the wokeness because the people making them lack the skills and creativity.
Also without passion you can't make something special and it's clear the wokeys hate the products they work on anyway. Spiderman 2 is a game made by people who hate spiderman.
At least Peter Parker spiderman
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March Climber
Member
I know you probably don't mean it this way, but the seemed implication with your post is that people without wokeness have those creative skills and ambitions, which is why I sometimes come into these threads to point out that eradicating perceived wokeness won't suddenly erase all untalented people from the world.
There will still exist those same people who don't have creative skills and ambitions(for example, nepotism babies) because wokeness/anti-wokeness itself is considered a secondary symptom to a much larger problem.
The fact that the topic of wokeness has ballooned this large online into being something everyone is pointing a finger to when it comes to such things like skill level is actually quite sad.
Fredrik
Member
Yeah sorry no need to derail just thought it was odd to say you don’t care about the woke discussion and then talk about it. Personally I do care about it and I think devs in general needs to take a step back, implement a progressiveness on/off option or something like with gore, forcing politics onto people who just want to play a game is not going to end well as we’ve seen so many times now.
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TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
It's blatant weaponizing and turning a source of entertainment into an indoctrination tool. The nouns may change, but this is the EXACT type of bullshit that makes these same types of people literally shake and seethe. Remember how pissed they get any time the US military is involved with gaming?
Different flag, same stripes, assholes. If you don't want complete strangers trying to recruit your children into a cult of violence and perverted politics, then like....
Samesies.
It's beyond verifiable now. This isn't some GamerGate boogeyman made up by misogyny. And it's affecting the bottom line for a lot of people in the entertainment industry. It's certainly not the sole conspirator in the real-time destruction of the entertainment sector, but to say it's not a splotch of decay on the structure contributing to the collapse is naive. Lofty chodes with a proportionally inverse ratio of investment in gaming over involvement in gaming- completely fucking dismantle our favorite IP's, then run away to the next healthy property. It definitely needs talked about. You have my sword, or some shit.
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TheGrat1
Member
Yeah...
I got caught up between "what went wrong" and "what happened" and failed to proofread it properly. I'd change it if I could.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I started playing the free EGS copy I got the other day, and then figured maybe I should just finally try GTAV instead. I will say that the driving and shooting in Saints Row was much better. I don't even give a shit about 'woke' but the whole feel of SR was just wonky.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Based on text you mean out of it, no?Wokeism in a nutshell, a bunch of white snowflakes trying to push non white people who despise into it.
I mean that DEI part, sigh typical anglo bullshit. White people telling others how they should feel about themselves, their stories and so on...
Neon Xenon
Member
Saints Row 2022 is such a mess from top to bottom, but I've always looked at the idea of rebooting a series as irreverent and raunchy as Saints Row for 2022 and all of the baggage that carries to be a crapshoot from the beginning. Yes, I'm aware that a reboot was in the cards anyway from a story standpoint, but that doesn't make it any more of a tantalizing prospect.
What's being shown in this video should be of little to no surprise. The resulting game was a very blatant attempt to pander to an audience ("modern", Gen Z, zoomers, whatever you want to call it) where not enough of them showed up for it anyway, and it really only served to piss off fans of the previous games. I saw that first trailer and could just feel fans getting turned off almost immediately. Just straight downhill from that point.
What's being shown in this video should be of little to no surprise. The resulting game was a very blatant attempt to pander to an audience ("modern", Gen Z, zoomers, whatever you want to call it) where not enough of them showed up for it anyway, and it really only served to piss off fans of the previous games. I saw that first trailer and could just feel fans getting turned off almost immediately. Just straight downhill from that point.
I hear you. But even before Saints Row 2022, I knew the prospects for a FreeSpace 3 were long gone.
Fredrik
Member
Yeah. Admittedly I’m a dinosaur, can’t help it, not from the US and while I now live in a multi cultural area seeing a trans person would be like seeing a ufo, even a gay person is a unicorn. Can’t relate to any of that blue hair stuff or gender uncertainities, it’s a big planet, not all countries has progressed like the US and maybe UK. Just tone it down or keep politics out of entertainment alltogether, or make it a player choice.
