excelsiorlef
Member
Some of us live in different western countries and know that we aren't living an authoritarian nightmare?
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Should Hate Speech Against Minorities Be Considered an Imprisonable Offense?
- Thread starter Antiochus
- Start date
Some of us live in different western countries and know that we aren't living an authoritarian nightmare?
entremet
Member
Again, those countries dont share the same dynamics the US does. Its not a 1:1 comparison.
Does Canada have for profit prisons? Voter disenfranchisement for felonies? And many more examples.
tensuke
Member
har har. No, that minority opinions should be protected (not the same as agreed with). White people may be the majority right now, but white supremacy is not. And overall we're trending to a much more progressive and accepting future.
You're the one strawmanning, although I guess I wasn't clear, so that's my fault. I meant the entire point of the country was that the government can't bridge unpopular opinions. And that's all hate speech is, unpopular opinions. There's far more good in this country than evil and I just don't think we should curb our freedoms because we're scared. Especially when it comes to 'hate speech' which is subjective and can just as easily be used AGAINST so-called 'good opinions'. I certainly wouldn't want the current administration having that power, would you?
Geno Breaker
Banned
No. It's be handled horribly.
wumster3000
Member
This is a tough one, but I dont think it should. If we enter territories that limit speaking out against something you see as unfavorable is a slippery slope.
Oppo
Member
actually it's a function, it seems, of how much you trust your government. canadians and germans generally do. after trump i understand american hesitation.
that said, you already "trust" then to uphold the 1st amendment, sooo...
Kittehkraken
Member
And Canada is a poor example. People aren't being charged or jailed in Canada for hate speech unless its a pretty extreme example. Which is rare.
legacyzero
Banned
No. ALL hate speech, if we did.
I mean Jesus, look at Twitter/Facebook right now in regards to #TakeAKnee. Conservative snowflakes losing their shit. Starbucks cant even make a goddamn red cup for the holidays without getting grilled.
That's the slippery slope. Sure, WE can clearly define hate speech, and what it is to US. But folks on the right have the same idea, but different perspective.
And I've been told that places like Germany have done it great, which is awesome. I dont know much about foreign speech laws, so I would love that kind of perspective. Hell, maybe that might make me come around on the issue. But I'd also argue that the USA is a different country demographically. Especially when it comes to whites, and Christianity. So maybe speech laws in other countries works because they're more compatible? I'm not sure.
This is why its better the way it is. Speech with consequences.
Exactly. Even diet supremacists want to outlaw protests (also first amendment), and allow running over protesters.
This.
Sure. The slippery slope is that Republicans find certain types of speech reprehensible. I'm an Atheist. Should MY speech be blocked? Should I not be able to speak out against religion? When I defend a Woman's right to chose what she does with her body, and that Religion shouldn't override abortion rights, should I not be able to speak out on that?
I mean Jesus, look at Twitter/Facebook right now in regards to #TakeAKnee. Conservative snowflakes losing their shit. Starbucks cant even make a goddamn red cup for the holidays without getting grilled.
That's the slippery slope. Sure, WE can clearly define hate speech, and what it is to US. But folks on the right have the same idea, but different perspective.
And I've been told that places like Germany have done it great, which is awesome. I dont know much about foreign speech laws, so I would love that kind of perspective. Hell, maybe that might make me come around on the issue. But I'd also argue that the USA is a different country demographically. Especially when it comes to whites, and Christianity. So maybe speech laws in other countries works because they're more compatible? I'm not sure.
This is why its better the way it is. Speech with consequences.
Exactly. Even diet supremacists want to outlaw protests (also first amendment), and allow running over protesters.
Straight Edge
Member
A white supremacist government would define hate speech in terms that would benefit whites.
CaviarMeths
Member
I'm hesitant to prison. As a whole, I think the penal system is one big colossal failure and the last thing that's needed is for them to be full of even more non-violent criminals (and yes I know that words carry meaning and are capable of inciting violence).
I believe there should be harsh repercussions, but prison isn't a good solution. Perfect solution is for such hateful people to be ostracized and ejected by their communities and workplaces, but that's not happening anytime soon either. So... I don't know, yeah, maybe prison is the best we have for now.
One thing that is certain though is that hate speech should not be a protected right.
I believe there should be harsh repercussions, but prison isn't a good solution. Perfect solution is for such hateful people to be ostracized and ejected by their communities and workplaces, but that's not happening anytime soon either. So... I don't know, yeah, maybe prison is the best we have for now.
One thing that is certain though is that hate speech should not be a protected right.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
No. If you don't want protections guaranteed by the First Amendment, feel free to move to another nation that's a better fit for you.
Hate speech is ill-defined. Only threats inciting direct physical harm should be illegal.
Hate speech is ill-defined. Only threats inciting direct physical harm should be illegal.
Looks like it's on its way.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/business/germany-facebook-google-twitter.html?mcubz=1
This is getting to Demolition Man levels of craziness.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
It's more hysterical fear mongering by Americans, the exact same thing that's going on in this thread. How is this proof that it will be a slide into authoritarianism?
tearsintherain
Member
People were all for giving government lots of powers and rights the past 8 years, then Trump gets into office and suddenly they are horrified at the powers of the presidency and want to scramble hard to limit power.
You are foolish if you think the answer to your problem is giving someone else more power over you. The basis of the American republic is that the powers of government should be as minimal as possible. We routinely make the same mistake over and over, giving more power to the government, and every time they abuse that power against us over time. The 1990s war on crime and drugs ended up doing so much more destruction to minority communities than white power groups ever could even dream up. The 2001 Patriot Act had so many long lasting effects on how our government spy agencies work. Good intentions do NOT automatically lead to moral actions.
Hate speech laws would 100% be used by future corrupt governments to jail dissidents, and I'm sort of both sad and not surprised that people are all for creating laws that create their own future prisons.
You are foolish if you think the answer to your problem is giving someone else more power over you. The basis of the American republic is that the powers of government should be as minimal as possible. We routinely make the same mistake over and over, giving more power to the government, and every time they abuse that power against us over time. The 1990s war on crime and drugs ended up doing so much more destruction to minority communities than white power groups ever could even dream up. The 2001 Patriot Act had so many long lasting effects on how our government spy agencies work. Good intentions do NOT automatically lead to moral actions.
Hate speech laws would 100% be used by future corrupt governments to jail dissidents, and I'm sort of both sad and not surprised that people are all for creating laws that create their own future prisons.
Social Media should following the rules of Germany against Hate Speech, if they making buissnes there. Which is reasonable.
But you comperaring Hate Speech to just cursing is fucked up!
wvnative
Member
Yeah, don't care how this makes me look either. Free Speech is Free Speech, and sure it sounds good to throw people like that in jail, but that's how dangerous things begin to happen. Horrible idea.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Sure, why not?
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Wat
excelsiorlef
Member
It's one thing if you want to argue the US is uniquely fucked that it won't work.
It's another to declare hate speech law proponents literal authoritarians
excelsiorlef
Member
No it's not.
Bacon_Boss
Member
As a minority, no. Criminalizing any form of speech is a bad call. We should instead police implications. If a person is saying hateful things in an attempt to incite something, then I say fine him or whatever. But not speech in its own. That can go wrong real fast
Audioboxer
Member
In the UK two people were arrested for burning a Koran
Now I'm not a fan of burning anything, let alone books, but I seem to recall a lot on this board defending burning your flag as a right of expression. Well, I'm sure your Republican Government will soon have that as a hate crime.
Preacher locked up for hate crime after quoting the Bible to gay teenager
I'm also not a fan of religion, full stop, especially real conservative interpretations, but if we're going to use state raised money to arrest every religious person with shit views on homosexuality... £££ down the drain.
For some more insight into what a Conservative Government pushes for when it comes to speech/expression/privacy in the UK
Everything you need to know about the ”terrifying" Investigatory Powers Bill
The UK has now entered a draconian era of porn prohibition
Now, incitement to violence/direct targeted harassment is something we can all sign off on for being illegal/arrestable, but using taxpayer money to arrest/jail for speech/expression is something that is not a simple "hey look at Europe!". Remember in politics whatever power the government has, it can be used by whatever government is in power. I shouldn't need to remind anyone nearly every country in the West has spells of right-leaning Governments in charge, and then left-leaning Governments. That can happen in a democracy, most of us aren't in dictatorships.
Thinking handing unfettered power to the Government/police forces will somehow stop racism/offence/verbal abuse is short-sighted.
Now I'm not a fan of burning anything, let alone books, but I seem to recall a lot on this board defending burning your flag as a right of expression. Well, I'm sure your Republican Government will soon have that as a hate crime.
Preacher locked up for hate crime after quoting the Bible to gay teenager
I'm also not a fan of religion, full stop, especially real conservative interpretations, but if we're going to use state raised money to arrest every religious person with shit views on homosexuality... £££ down the drain.
For some more insight into what a Conservative Government pushes for when it comes to speech/expression/privacy in the UK
Everything you need to know about the ”terrifying" Investigatory Powers Bill
The UK has now entered a draconian era of porn prohibition
Now, incitement to violence/direct targeted harassment is something we can all sign off on for being illegal/arrestable, but using taxpayer money to arrest/jail for speech/expression is something that is not a simple "hey look at Europe!". Remember in politics whatever power the government has, it can be used by whatever government is in power. I shouldn't need to remind anyone nearly every country in the West has spells of right-leaning Governments in charge, and then left-leaning Governments. That can happen in a democracy, most of us aren't in dictatorships.
Thinking handing unfettered power to the Government/police forces will somehow stop racism/offence/verbal abuse is short-sighted.
This. I would also want mandatory community service over it to better society.
Supha_Volt
Neo Member
I would be in favor but as right now, and the foreseeable future, it would be used against us like how so many other things are used to disenfranchise us on many levels.
Knowing white conservatives they would flip it on us as soon the white population hits 50% and run us into the dirt as far voting, rallies, protest etc. Not that they don't already do that but it would work more in their favor especially if it went to court since it would be the law of the land.
Knowing white conservatives they would flip it on us as soon the white population hits 50% and run us into the dirt as far voting, rallies, protest etc. Not that they don't already do that but it would work more in their favor especially if it went to court since it would be the law of the land.
I want to say yes because hate speech is easy enough to provide concrete examples of. "Kill all <x>." Bam, hate speech. It shouldn't matter if a particular person doesn't care but rather the precedent it sets. If you want to talk slippery slope, look at the rise of white supremacy. For a lot of people it starts off as: "Kill all jews!" as a joke. Then it becomes normalized to say shit like that. Then you can start believing it because you've said it so often. Then you're radicalized because fuck you, free speech! Who cares if I'm genuinely frightening people and making them fear for their lives! My free speech!
But, in the real world, such examples are very easily twisted into more and more obtuse things. You get another administration like the one we currently have (because my myopic worldview says that, yes, we're going to) and they try to make Christianity into a minority.
It's not a slippery slope argument to say that it'll be used against the "wrong" sort of people. It's looking at the current state of the US and the sort of people that get in positions of power/have the ability to make law. All it takes is 2-4 years for hate speech to turn into groups like BLM being 100% fucked over because the white folk at the top don't like it.
But, in the real world, such examples are very easily twisted into more and more obtuse things. You get another administration like the one we currently have (because my myopic worldview says that, yes, we're going to) and they try to make Christianity into a minority.
It's not a slippery slope argument to say that it'll be used against the "wrong" sort of people. It's looking at the current state of the US and the sort of people that get in positions of power/have the ability to make law. All it takes is 2-4 years for hate speech to turn into groups like BLM being 100% fucked over because the white folk at the top don't like it.
TumblingHippo
Member
Don't make it generic. Say specific hate speech. If you're spouting nazi stuff, then yes, make it illegal. Make the KKK illegal.
A generalized law that can be used a multitude of ways could be bad in the wrong hands, but if we just specify specific hate groups and symbols, yes I'd be very much for it.
A generalized law that can be used a multitude of ways could be bad in the wrong hands, but if we just specify specific hate groups and symbols, yes I'd be very much for it.
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
No.
biggersmaller
Banned
No. Nope. Nope. Nope.
I'm a free speech guy. It allows me to say fuck Nazis. Sure, you could make racist speech illegal today - but would you want to have a Trump like figure empowered by precedent to lawfully have the government silence opposition?
I'm a free speech guy. It allows me to say fuck Nazis. Sure, you could make racist speech illegal today - but would you want to have a Trump like figure empowered by precedent to lawfully have the government silence opposition?
hey_monkey
Banned
Uh... when did I say anyone should be killed by the state?
I already said that it could not and should not be implemented in this country as it is, current administration aside. It's not like the American criminal justice system was magically words better pre-Trump, just that the current administration is happy to make a bad thing worse.
But hate speech is not just "an unpopular opinion." Perhaps we are working with different definitions. I'm talking about hate speech with a logical conclusion of "x should die/be killed." I don't consider that just an opinion. I consider that on the edge of inciting violence.
Neither do I. I don't really see where the societal benefit to this is. It wouldn't stop people thinking how they think and acting how they act.
Also - and I'm serious, does the thread title imply it would be fine for minorities to use hate speech against white people?
Wafflecakes
Member
Nope.
I don't trust that any measure of what constitutes "hate speech" can be consistently and evenly applied in the long term, and it is far too easy to abuse.
Trump would fucking LOVE the chance to throw people in prison for what he would call hate speech.
I don't trust that any measure of what constitutes "hate speech" can be consistently and evenly applied in the long term, and it is far too easy to abuse.
Trump would fucking LOVE the chance to throw people in prison for what he would call hate speech.
legacyzero
Banned
Are you actually reading the discussion though? A lot of good and solid arguments for why this is all a bad idea.
People aren't saying "screw minorites! Man up snowflakes!" They're saying that it could have an even bigger and more terrible effect than simply hearing hateful words.
This issue discussed here is the literal American legal principle of free speech.
This meme response is not just intellectually bankrupt, as always, it's also inaccurate as applied here.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Hell no. Thats 1984.
tensuke
Member
Like I said, there's more good in this country than evil. As nasty as some speech can be, it's not a majority opinion. Hell, white people voting for Trump made up ~17% of the total population (and that's a shrinking demographic). Not that only white Trump voters are capable of hate speech, surely, but you get the point.
Then yeah, I guess we disagree. While I don't find saying stuff like "x should die/be killed" acceptable, I don't think it's inciting violence. Maybe if someone specifically told others to kill people with intent to have said acts carried out, but I don't think it should cover things like some guy on Twitter saying "Jews should die". It's reprehensible, but if nothing physical can reasonably come of it directly, it's not (to me) inciting violence.
I guess it's the difference in opinions and actions; just believing that "x should be killed" is an opinion, actually trying to do something about it is an action. Going online and saying "death to x" is just speech, planning to carry that idea out is action. At least that's where I'm at. I didn't mean to suggest you thought anything should be implemented, I just meant that I wasn't saying the point of the country was concrete eg. letting people say "death to jews", but the abstract philosophy behind letting people say what they felt.
I am. It's why I am kind of glad I live in UK were hate speech is a arrestable offence. I get people would be worried about what else "could" happen. But the US badly needs something to stop the shit minorities have to put up with. I don't get how you can allow hate groups to protest for one.
Not saying lock them up, I am saying it needs to be stamped out. I go to NY a lot as I have fam there and the shit they put up with just because of "free speech" is disgusting.
In order for freedom of speech to be protected, I do not think that this is a good idea.
No one wants hate speech, but at what point do you draw the line on what is and is not hate speech.
And if your going to ban hate speech, then you have to start banning all sorts of other speeches to please everyone.
No one wants hate speech, but at what point do you draw the line on what is and is not hate speech.
And if your going to ban hate speech, then you have to start banning all sorts of other speeches to please everyone.
Stone Ocean
Member
Yeah, because thats exactly what happens in countries that criminalize hate speech.
Stop overthinking shit, America. You wouldn't be the first democracy with hate speech laws.
Hey, if you want what your aloud to say to be micromanaged, then move to those countries. No one is stopping you. The beautiful thing about America is we are aloud to speak about anything we want. I don't really see how your trying to be sarcastic about a basic American right.
ChainedMaster
Banned
Where's the guy claiming European governments don't resemble authoritarian governments? In this instance, they do. The fewer laws, the better. I don't get people's fascination with criminalizing everything they don't like. It wouldn't solve anything. People will find a way to express hate that circumvents the law and that's that. The hate will still be there. Only now it won't be so over. You're protecting nobody.
Basically people have a right to be racist. Nice...
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