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[water_wendi]

I don't think there's really a way they could have launched it without it being a shit show.

A massive cultural shift needs to happen for this to work well. As was said earlier, the Skyrim workshop is basically a sacrificial lamb to get us through the mess.

im not really in favor of it but i think it could be done in a way where its not as horrible. For starters.. the split. If Valve and the dev are basically acting as publishers for the work i feel the maximum should be a publisher cut. So 30% for Valve and at maximum for the dev 30%. The dev has the perogative to take less or nothing at all with their portion going to the modder.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I don't see why we should all be so glum about valve making something from this. They host the content, provide a huge audience of people, easy integration with the workshop etc etc. They give the people who want to sell a lot of benefits.

Stolen mods is shitty but there are avenues for the true creators to follow to fix it. It happens elsewhere in the Dota store.

The modding scene has always been weighted more towards crap than it was good quality stuff and surprise surprise nobody cared then (Good stuff exists I'm not saying it doesn't). It's just the way it is except now the good stuff can charge money. Except now we have a rating system and comment boards for each mod so that you can somewhat understand what kind of quality the mod is in.

Pay what you want does exist on the store though? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429360318

But again, with stolen mods... it's valve and bethesda who profit the most from them, not the people who stole in the first place!

Valve and Bethesda are turning mods into paid DLC where the money goes to them, but they don't do any content creation, testing, QA, brainstorming, debugging, anything. And they certainly aren't going to ensure that workshop content isn't stolen or copywritten.

 

[Almighty]

Nah, the backlash would have drowned out everything else for fallout 4. This is a lot better for them, they can test the waters with a game that's pretty much dead sales wise.

I doubt that. Most people who buy their games buy on systems where they can't even mod it to begin with. So this whole thing is a non issue for them. Then on top of that a lot of the worry comes from people who fear the mods they have and enjoyed will be taken off the Nexus and become paid only. Which wouldn't be a problem with Fallout 4 since there would be no mods already for it. It also would have prevented all this you can't use my mod in paid mods so take it down. As that stuff would of been sorted out from the very start.

 

[Aselith]

im remembering a decent amount of post launch content releasing free of charge. Map packs being the largest. Free expansion packs like Icewind Dales and Rune (? i think it was Rune) Cavedog? Maybe ive got it wrong though?

Of course and there are still developers doing that like CD Project and Valvo and Blizzard but it was more common to not gave anything added except a paid expansion. It was really down to the developer just like now. It's a very common strategy for MMO's to do some paid and some free content and very common in F2P of course also.

 

[Aerobatics]

This is so gross on so many levels.

 

[water_wendi]

I doubt that. Most people who buy their games buy on system where they can't even mod it to begin with. So this whole thing is a none issue for them. Then on top of that a lot of the worry comes from people who fear the mods they have and enjoyed will be taken off the Nexus and become paid only. Which wouldn't be a problem with Fallout 4 since there would be no mods already for it. It also would have prevent all this you can't use my mod in paid mods so take it down. As that stuff would of been sorted out from the very start.

Putting this on Skyrim before a different new game comes across as a schoolchilds error. Definitely not something id expect of either Valve or Bethesda.

 

[draetenth]

For the people that in favor of paid mods, how would you have launched it?

Maybe a huge conversion mod that couldnt be done for free?, but even then, there have been tons of those before... for free.

1) Maybe not make a very active game like Skyrim be the sacrificial lamb. Either just announce it with their next game (so people are at least prepared) or using an older game (Fallout 3? Oblivion?) to test the waters...

2) Maybe let modders set the minimum payment amount to $0 (as far as I can tell it's $1) so it would work like a donation service. It would help placate some of those who are upset about the thought of paying for mods.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/el-risitas-interview-parodies



right vid has english subs

Thanks. That guy's laugh is catchy...

This is a PR move to expel the hatred well in advance of a future game announcement. If they announced their next game with mods restricted to the workshop without this priming first, the backlash would torpedo all of their PR plans for that game.

Yeah, I can see this. Still maybe they could have just used a game that isn't so active as their test subject (like Fallout 3 or Oblivion).

 

[Kyougar]

many many mods release in an alpha or beta status and are dependent on community input or help from other modders to get things in the mod working as intended.

How do we get great and immersive mods, when most of the modders dont have enough experience to release a funtioning mod?
Are we getting early access mods next, so that the modder can work on the mod while the community helps him debug his mod?

Or does the modder just tests this mod on nexus for free and when he got all the help from the community and other modders for free he releases a (hopefully) bugfree version on the workshop?


Everyone who thinks we will get full conversions or great content for hours en masse is dilusional there are not enough experienced modders out there who could do it on their own without relying on outside modder help or community feedback.

Horse armor and weapon skins will be 98% of the paid mods.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Putting this on Skyrim before a different new game comes across as a schoolchilds error. Definitely not something id expect of either Valve or Bethesda.

Valve's been trying to figure out how to monetize custom game modes for Dota for awhile. They aren't out yet, but should be out relatively soon, and I think this is a test for that, rather than Fallout 4.

 

[macewank]

People keep going on about these 'cool companies giving people choices'.

Are you really crazy enough to think Valve is doing this just to be nice and give users options? Really?

There's ONE and only one reason for this. Valve wants more money for no extra work.

There's literally no other reason. Not for options. Not to reward modders. Not to get higher quality mods.

Just lol at people going out of their way to support a multi million/billion dollar company who don't give a shit about them.

fight the power. rage against the machine. how dare a company try to diversify it's revenue streams.

of course they're in it for the money. who the hell would dispute that? valve is absolutely going to take their cut of this. why wouldn't they?

I'll say it again: the modder, not valve, is who decides whether or not your horse armor is going to cost money. if you have a problem with paying for a mod, go beef with the modder who decided it should cost $4.99.

 

[Ganzlinger]

lmao at the currently hot files on Nexus:

"Give me money for no reason"

 

[MJLord]

But again, with stolen mods... it's valve and bethesda who profit the most from them, not the people who stole in the first place!

Valve and Bethesda are turning mods into paid DLC where the money goes to them, but they don't do any content creation, testing, QA, brainstorming, debugging, anything. And they certainly aren't going to ensure that workshop content isn't stolen or copywritten.

Yeah I mean with stolen mods it's another problem where valve like to be all hands off and they don't really own up to providing useful customer support. It's THE major boon with steam imo.

The cut is massively unfavorable for mod makers and I really wish Bethesda would have given mod makers a larger cut.

fight the power. rage against the machine. how dare a company try to diversify it's revenue streams.

of course they're in it for the money. who the hell would dispute that? valve is absolutely going to take their cut of this. why wouldn't they?

I'll say it again: the modder, not valve, is who decides whether or not your horse armor is going to cost money. if you have a problem with paying for a mod, go beef with the modder who decided it should cost $4.99.

Or the publisher who decided to take 50%.

 

[Atilac]

I don't see the outrage here, this will encourage mod development and the market will adjust the price overtime through demand. Why shouldn't people be allowed to ask for money for their hardwork? Especially if the option to monetize is on the content creator and not valve. You don't wanna spend money on a mod? Don't buy it. This word gets thrown around a lot, but it is true in this case - entitlement is causing people to get angry.

 

[Mesoian]

lmao at the currently hot files on Nexus:

"Give me money for no reason"

Almost every other new mod over the course of the last two days has been something poking fun at this entire situation.

 

[DSN2K]

Think this is Valve first genuine fuck up with Steam for me, so many reason why this is a terrible, TERRIBLE idea.

Soon as you add cost you add a whole new level expectations, something you just cant expect public communities to deliver frankly

 

[DMiz]

WELP.

SkyUI is now offering paid support.

What's more, the next update - which will require payment - is going to tackle crafting menus. The one thing that everybody wanted it to do but that it didn't interact with.

EDIT2: I know a lot of people are going to think this is a fear-mongering post, but just to clarify: this is not about SkyUI going away, or that it will no longer be able to be used for a free user. The free version will still be available for download, and in theory, the MCM will still be updated. This is to highlight that a very prominent mod in the community is being updated with further paid support. It is a powerful message to Valve and to Bethesda, in my opinion, and sets a precedent for the discussion going forward.

EDIT: For those who are just perusing this thread and need some more context:

SkyUI is one of the fundamental mods that most builds, regardless of how crazy or how vanilla you like your experience to be, require in order to get their game running. It also comes built-in with what is known as the MCM, or Mod Configuration Menu, which permits other mods to basically permit users to alter settings in-game.

While this isn't the end of the world - any changes to the MCM that get made in 5.0 are going to get shifted into the 'free' version of SkyUI that is still up in the Nexus - this potentially sends a big message to mod authors and Bethesda.

SkyUI is consistently among the top 10 mods of all time, and is one of the most, if not THE most, downloaded and endorsed mods for Skyrim. It is considered a crowning achievement of the modding community in that it was free, and heavily overhauled the interface to make it useful.

And it is now going to require payment in order for you to receive any further benefits. Drop the mic.

 

[The Llama]

WELP.

SkyUI is now offering paid support.

What's more, the next update - which will require payment - is going to tackle crafting menus. The one thing that everybody wanted it to do but that it didn't interact with.

RIP modding scene as we knew it, 1990-2015.

 

[Atilac]

Think this is Valve first genuine fuck up with Steam for me, so many reason why this is a terrible, TERRIBLE idea.

Soon as you add cost you add a whole new level expectations, something you just cant expect public communities to deliver frankly

Then the market will adjust. Allowing content creators the option to monetize their work is far from a bad idea

 

[MJLord]

WELP.

SkyUI is now offering paid support.

What's more, the next update - which will require payment - is going to tackle crafting menus. The one thing that everybody wanted it to do but that it didn't interact with.

The only way this sort of thing could have been avoided was if they had just launched this with their latest title.

 

[MattPeters]

WELP.

SkyUI is now offering paid support.

What's more, the next update - which will require payment - is going to tackle crafting menus. The one thing that everybody wanted it to do but that it didn't interact with.

Ugh. SkyUI is pretty essential for playing Skyrim too.

Fuck everything about this.

 

[jmga]

So, SkyUi is going to drop its open source model?

This is worse than I thought.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I don't see the outrage here, this will encourage mod development and the market will adjust the price overtime through demand. Why shouldn't people be allowed to ask for money for their hardwork? Especially if the option to monetize is on the content creator and not valve. You don't wanna spend money on a mod? Don't buy it. This word gets thrown around a lot, but it is true in this case - entitlement is causing people to get angry.

Because of various reasons already highlighted in the thread.

- The mods that are monetized right now are all old mods that are now pay for. In some cases they removed the free version, they're pay only now.
- It actually doesn't encourage mod development in a way you think. People will never get a ROI on huge, large scale mods. So this will encourage smaller, easier to make, less complicated mods. You'll see more super flashy "badass" swords and less quests or other more complex, harder to advertise products that would be more expensive.
- To go with that, many of the best mods require libraries and extensions made by other people who may not want their work used in a paid mod. This puts a huge stop on any major mod projects that are paid.
- It's nearly impossible to enforce proper rights on large paid mods because they're often large colab efforts that may use bits and parts of tons of mods and one person not liking it being paid ends it right there.
- The mod makers only make 25% of the money, which is pathetically low for the amount of work they have to do versus what Valve and Bethesda do. This isn't like Dota 2 where Valve curates, implements and further does maintenance on the cosmetic, plus advertises it. This is a mod maker on their own, to do their own maintenance
- If a mod breaks something you only have 24 hours to realize it and even if it is broken you don't get a proper refund, you only get Steam wallet money back, so no matter what that money is lost. Larger mods sometimes take much longer than 24 hours to debug, especially when combined with other mods. Game breaking issues may not manifest until way past 24 hours, especially if it's a fairly obscure issue.

 

[Atilac]

WELP.

SkyUI is now offering paid support.

What's more, the next update - which will require payment - is going to tackle crafting menus. The one thing that everybody wanted it to do but that it didn't interact with.

Then they should make their own mod that changes it, they have no right to the benefits of another's work unless that person decides otherwise.

 

[rashbeep]

Because of various reasons already highlighted in the thread.

- The mods that are monetized right now are all old mods that are now pay for. In some cases they removed the free version, they're pay only now.
- It actually doesn't encourage mod development in a way you think. People will never get a ROI on huge, large scale mods. So this will encourage smaller, easier to make, less complicated mods. You'll see more super flashy "badass" swords and less quests or other more complex, harder to advertise products that would be more expensive.
- To go with that, many of the best mods require libraries and extensions made by other people who may not want their work used in a paid mod. This puts a huge stop on any major mod projects that are paid.
- It's nearly impossible to enforce proper rights on large paid mods because they're often large colab efforts that may use bits and parts of tons of mods and one person not liking it being paid ends it right there.
- The mod makers only make 25% of the money, which is pathetically low for the amount of work they have to do versus what Valve and Bethesda do. This isn't like Dota 2 where Valve curates, implements and further does maintenance on the cosmetic, plus advertises it. This is a mod maker on their own, to do their own maintenance
- If a mod breaks something you only have 24 hours to realize it and even if it is broken you don't get a proper refund, you only get Steam wallet money back, so no matter what that money is lost. Larger mods sometimes take much longer than 24 hours to debug, especially when combined with other mods. Game breaking issues may no manifest until way past 24 hours, especially if it's a fairly obscure issue.

Good summary. I'm not sure how this will look in the future, but right now this doesn't look good. At all.

 

[ashecitism]

Paradox's response to "any comment on paid modding?"

https://twitter.com/PdxInteractive/status/591630305783603200

 

[DMiz]

Then they should make their own mod that changes it, they have no right to the benefits of another's work unless that person decides otherwise.

EDIT: I just realized that you meant that the people who were clamoring for the updated crafting menus should have made their own mod. My mistake! The below response is to clarify the fact that SkyUI was made by a team of modders, but only one of them seems to be going forward with monetization.

Continue accidental response:

One of the biggest names in the scene, Gopher, hasn't commented on this. He contributed to SkyUI and was previously quoted as saying he doesn't believe in charging for any of the projects that he has ever made.

This, of course, complicates matters, since, in practice, some of his code (or at least his efforts) are in SkyUI. How the current author who intends to monetize the mod will share the profits, if he will at all, has not yet been discussed. Obviously, the model that Valve and Bethesda envisioned is half-baked at best and completely under-cooked at worst.

 

[Orin GA]

The author of SkyUI had no plans to update the program any further, but is putting time into it now that it will get him some revenue.SkyUI 4.0 aint going anywhere.

 

[Ganzlinger]

WELP.

SkyUI is now offering paid support.

From that post:

Version 4.0 will remain on the Nexus. Version 5.0 onwards (likely to have much improvements and fixes that many other mods will rely on and update to) will be paid for.
So now, to get into Skyrim modding, it costs the base game + the cost for SkyUI. Because you're not gonna mod this game without SkyUI due to Mod Menus requiring it.
Update from Shlangster:
"Well... currently, the plan is the following:
Upload new version for minimum $1 (pay-what-you-want) on SW.
Keep old version for free as it is on both Nexus and SW.
Service provider split would go to Nexus to support the site even if I can't host the free version there.
Any changes to core infrastructure like MCM flows back to the free version as well, so I won't try to force you to upgrade or pull any other stupid stunt like that.

 

[Mesoian]

WELP.

SkyUI is now offering paid support.

What's more, the next update - which will require payment - is going to tackle crafting menus. The one thing that everybody wanted it to do but that it didn't interact with.

EDIT: For those who are just perusing this thread and need some more context:

SkyUI is one of the fundamental mods that most builds, regardless of how crazy or how vanilla you like your experience to be, require in order to get their game running. It also comes built-in with what is known as the MCM, or Mod Configuration Menu, which permits other mods to basically permit users to alter settings in-game.

While this isn't the end of the world - any changes to the MCM that get made in 5.0 are going to get shifted into the 'free' version of SkyUI that is still up in the Nexus - this potentially sends a big message to mod authors and Bethesda.

SkyUI is consistently among the top 10 mods of all time, and is one of the most, if not THE most, downloaded and endorsed mods for Skyrim. It is considered a crowning achievement of the modding community in that it was free, and heavily overhauled the interface to make it useful.

And it is now going to require payment in order for you to receive any further benefits. Drop the mic.

That's a big one.

Welp.

 

[DMiz]

*snip*

Just to quote myself (this was in the first edit):

"While this isn't the end of the world - any changes to the MCM that get made in 5.0 are going to get shifted into the 'free' version of SkyUI that is still up in the Nexus - this potentially sends a big message to mod authors and Bethesda."

I'm well aware that the most important functionality of SkyUI is being retained. The point is not to say that the mod is going completely away, but to highlight that very big movers in the community are supporting - or at least engaging in - the curated workshop.

 

[Dwalls]

Jesus tits, SkyUI too? That's it, it's fucking over, might as well give up. I hate myself for not actually playing the DLC my dumbass bought during the last steam sale while I could still affordably mod the game to my liking. If SkyUI is out I might as well not bother. Pretty much done with workshop games at this point, what used to be a positive is going to turn into a negative for me super quickly. I'll take my modding unsupported and hacked together from now on because atleast I know that won't be getting monetized outside of donations I can choose to make if I feel like it.

 

[Mesoian]

Just to quote myself (this was in the first edit):

"While this isn't the end of the world - any changes to the MCM that get made in 5.0 are going to get shifted into the 'free' version of SkyUI that is still up in the Nexus - this potentially sends a big message to mod authors and Bethesda."

I'm well aware that the most important functionality of SkyUI is being retained. The point is not to say that the mod is going completely away, but to highlight that very big movers in the community are supporting - or at least engaging in - the curated workshop.

It'll be interesting, I'll say that much.

When the mod that is basically required for Skyrim modding is pay for a dollar, how does that reflect on the worth of literally every other mod that's dependant on it?

 

[Liseda]

All this outrage from other places, I don't exactly agree with Valve either but;
spamming random content creators sure is the right way to go!
Totally not enforcing the entitled gamer stereotype, fucking hell.

Shameful.

 

[Kinthalis]

Jesus tits, SkyUI too? That's it, it's fucking over, might as well give up. I hate myself for not actually playing the DLC my dumbass bought during the last steam sale while I could still affordably mod the game to my liking. If SkyUI is out I might as well not bother.

You don't think the author os SkyUI deserves your dollar for his work?

 

[Mavromatis]

My current Skyrim mod list would cost 6x the game costed if I bought all the items at the lowest price point of pwyw. And I really believe that I got the simplest audiovisual enhancements and basic fixes at this point.
I don't think I would pay this much and this is Skyrim, one of the best time sinks Steam has. I can't honestly imagine paying for an average mod of a bundle game more than the cost of the bundle anywhere in future.

 

[Netherscourge]

Look - if he doesn't do this for SkyUI, someone else will clone it and profit for themselves.

Modders are almost forced to put it up on the Workshop now, either free or paid, just to claim a stake in their own work.

 

[DMiz]

You don't think the author os SkyUI deserves your dollar for his work?

He does (in my opinion), but don't forget that SkyUI was made by a team. The question is how the rest of the team is being compensated by this, if at all.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

but to highlight that very big movers in the community are supporting - or at least engaging in - the curated workshop.

Oh man I'm so fucking thrilled about the curation of this curated workshop.

 

[Orin GA]

You don't think the author os SkyUI deserves your dollar for his work?

lol. I hear that. Ill be first in line for it when it comes out.Could not imagine playing skyrim without it.

 

[IcyRhythms]

Tripwire will not allow mod authors to charge for their mods in KF2

"Your Mods must be distributed for free, period. Neither you, nor any other person or party, may sell them to anyone, commercially exploit them in any way, or charge anyone for receiving or using them without prior written consent from Tripwire Interactive. You may exchange them at no charge among other end users and distribute them to others over the Internet, on magazine cover disks, or otherwise for free. "

http://store.steampowered.com//eula/232090_eula_0

 

[DMiz]

Oh man I'm so fucking thrilled about the curation of this curated workshop.

There are several authors who are uploading joke mods in order to contest, or at least protest, the curated workshop.

This doesn't change the fact that there are several big names, who are very familiar to the community, did attempt this experiment and have put products up on the workshop.

The most unfortunate circumstance seems to have been in Chesko's - author of Frostfall - case, who has basically abandoned the scene for the time being while the backlash is being washed over.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Just to quote myself (this was in the first edit):

"While this isn't the end of the world - any changes to the MCM that get made in 5.0 are going to get shifted into the 'free' version of SkyUI that is still up in the Nexus - this potentially sends a big message to mod authors and Bethesda."

I'm well aware that the most important functionality of SkyUI is being retained. The point is not to say that the mod is going completely away, but to highlight that very big movers in the community are supporting - or at least engaging in - the curated workshop.

I share your concern.

 

[Parham]

Do I really need to go on? What the hell do you guys think expansion packs were? How do you think they came to be in the first place?

To add to your point, there are a small handful of studios that have made a business selling expansion packs / mods to Flight Simulator X and 2004. A quick search of flight sim expansion packs on Amazon even shows how often they're released. You can see a ton of them at stores like Fry's Electronics too.

 

[reckless]

You don't think the author os SkyUI deserves your dollar for his work?

$.25.

I definitely don't think Valve/Zenimax deserve $.75 for doing nothing here.

 

[hesido]

I would assume this has already been linked somewhere in this thread but just in case, but here's very compelling list of stuff that makes this move a very bad one, written by a modder (FilthyCasual):

https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730313709437/

Very close to what balladofwindfishes says but concentrates more on the quality aspects.

I also think this is a bad move.

 

[Kinthalis]

$.25.

I definitely don't think Valve/Zenimax deserve $.75 for doing nothing here.

Well they created the game in the first place, I thik tha entitles them to a cut.

A 75% cut.... yeah, I do think that's too much.

 

[reckless]

Well they created the game in the first place, I thik tha entitles them to a cut.

A 75% cut.... yeah, I do think that's too much.

They did such a great job a modder has to fix their terrible interface... and now they're being rewarded for it.

 

[draetenth]

Paradox's response to "any comment on paid modding?"

https://twitter.com/PdxInteractive/status/591630305783603200

I chuckled.

...One of the biggest names in the scene, Gopher, hasn't commented on this. He contributed to SkyUI and was previously quoted as saying he doesn't believe in charging for any of the projects that he has ever made...

Technically, he did give his initial impressions in a youtube video where he did say he was going to look over things...

 

[Mavromatis]

You don't think the author os SkyUI deserves your dollar for his work?

I'm not sure if game market has that much money, I know that I don't. They maybe deserving but I don't have the cash to pay.
That is why Steam localized market prices, to balance market prices. Now they are forcing the same payment for whole world.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Well they created the game in the first place, I thik tha entitles them to a cut.

A 75% cut.... yeah, I do think that's too much.

SkyUI wouldn't exist if Bethesda didn't release the game with such a garbage interface built in.