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[Poyunch]

One could also argue that you while the original is dead, he would immidiately be resurrected at another location.

Anyway, I think it's fairly obvious that if a transporter was invented eventually nearly everyone would use it. At least as much as everyone uses cars and airplanes now.

Teleportation would totally change society as we know it.

Resurrection would imply you would die and come back to life. This on the other hand is killing you off and replacing you with an artificial copy.

It's not an issue of philosophy. You were made naturally first and then using this technology would end this life. Yes you would be replaced but your natural self has still been destroyed.

 

[friskykillface]

Hell yeah I'd use a transporter , but of course it wouldn't be free, but say it takes less then a minute to get from Boston to Tokyo or to Austrailia, sign me up

 

[paparazzo]

Read the thread title as "So say the Star Trek transporter was inverted. Would you use it?" and was thoroughly confused :lol

 

[BladeWorker]

Yes! But first, I'll put my fish through it, just to make sure it works.

 

[Stahsky]

people are having nerdgasms in this thread

 

[Minamu]

Might've been mentioned but there are numerous ST episodes where people continue to live (and find other alien life forms as well) inside the pattern buffer. They seemed perfectly fine afterwards in most cases. I don't believe in this you are dead concept, tbh.

I wouldn't be the very first test subject or anything but I'd definitely use this tech if it was safe.

 

[Zaptruder]

Question: If the electrical activity that constitutes conciousness stops for an hour in a person, only to be restarted completely...

Is it the same person from their own perspective or a different person?


I think conciousness is one of those things where our perspective of it causes us to lose sight of its real nature.

We think of it as our continous identity, rather than some sort of choppy perception that arises from the electrical operation of brain matter that it's closer to been.

 

[SpacLock]

No way.

It would offer a convenient suicide for others though.

 

[Ephemeris]

Reading the question: Sure.
Reading the OP: No way.

 

[MadraptorMan]

I don't get how the transporter could just be a copier. Last time I checked, when I send an email, or upload a file, the "original" file still exists on the server/my computer that it came from. So if the transporter in Star Trek is a copier, does that mean the "original" is purposefully destroyed (where does the original matter go?)? Why would it be designed that way...you could just send a copy of yourself somewhere and stay on the ship and get a lot more done!

 

[MC Safety]

The answer is: If the transporter transported me, and didn't make a copy that would be fine.

I always assumed the transporter moved the original item from A to B and didn't work by constructing an identical copy, etc.

I remember a philosophy professor handed out an excerpt from one of the early Star Trek novels wherein Kirk and McCoy debated this very issue. I don't remember the title, but want to say it was something like "Spock is Dead."

Edit: Spock Must Die by James Blish.

 

[quaere]

It would be illegal in every civilized country. Way too much potential for society breaking abuse.

 

[Zaptruder]

I don't get how the transporter could just be a copier. Last time I checked, when I send an email, or upload a file, the "original" file still exists on the server/my computer that it came from. So if the transporter in Star Trek is a copier, does that mean the "original" is purposefully destroyed (where does the original matter go?)? Why would it be designed that way...you could just send a copy of yourself somewhere and stay on the ship and get a lot more done!

Startrek transporter needs to destroy the person in order to read their molecular structure.

But you're right; the transporter isn't a transporter. It's a copier/suicide/3D printing device wrapped into one. It just looks like your teleporting.

 

[Dead Man]

For the matter beam, yes, for the clone system, no. For that one the you sitting there now would be dead. There would be an identical entity running around, but the stream of consciousness that is you would be over.

 

[firehawk12]

I figure the convenience would outweigh everything else, which is why in Trek's future there's no real phobia about being copied over and over again.

I suppose it's like asking someone in the 17th century whether or not they would want to fly instead of take a ship across the Atlantic. I'm sure there were crazies who thought flying would be blaspheming or whatever.

 

[Onemic]

I figure the convenience would outweigh everything else, which is why in Trek's future there's no real phobia about being copied over and over again.

I suppose it's like asking someone in the 17th century whether or not they would want to fly instead of take a ship across the Atlantic. I'm sure there were crazies who thought flying would be blaspheming or whatever.

Read the posts in this thread again, as that comparison is way off

 

[Slavik81]

Defining when you stop being you is not a simple task. There's many interesting questions that it triggers. For one, I'd be curious to know what percentage of the matter that composes a person at birth is still inside them 40 years later.

Also note that the argument in which the original is left intact and a new person is created is slightly different than the case where the original is destroyed. It could be that you both were the same person until the point at which you had diverging experiences. That is, they both were the same person, though they no longer are. The argument would satisfy the intuitive feeling that they are two different people, while still holding that its the same person in the case of destroy/copy transportation.

 

[Phantron]

It would be great to watch the ethical debate that would occur if such a machine was ever invented.
I love this take on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc

 

[7Th]

Every time you go to sleep your consciousness is destroyed and a virtually identical copy created by the chemical reactions in brain takes your place as controller of your body when "you" wake up in the morning.

 

[Cipherr]

No because a copy is not the original. Its a copy. Even if it is a 100 percent loss-less copy, it is a copy, and NOT the original. So no.

 

[firehawk12]

Read the posts in this thread again, as that comparison is way off

Yeah, I have. I feel like we're making assumptions about the consciousness based on what we know now rather than what we might know 200-300 years from now when transporter technology might be a reality.

I'm assuming that like the whole world is square/sun revolves around the earth debate, our understanding of human consciousness will evolve to the point where these questions become moot.

 

[dejay]

What makes me me right now is the result of my genetics and the influence my environment has had on me after I was conceived.

Every moment I spend in this environment creates change in me, both physically and mentally (including memories). While the current me has memories from my childhood and has the physiological effects of childhood, I am a totally different person to who I was back then. If you take this to the next logical level, I am a totally different person I was one year, one month, one week, one day, one hour or indeed, one second ago.

If you preserve all my memories and thought patterns up to the point of switching on the teleporter whilst preserving the positions and velocities of all the particles that make up my body, and copy those to another position in the universe then I see no real difference between me here and me over there at the moment of transfer.

There would obviously be differences if both copies were allowed to continue to exist – their experiences would diverge, each one having their own new memories and experiences starting at the time of the duplication.

 

[zoku88]

It's like saying that if I cloned you, that "you" would exist in two places at once.

If you it was a perfect copy and if that copy was made in an instant, for that instant, you would be at two places at once. You would become two (slightly different) people right afterwards, though, since your memories would diverge.

No because a copy is not the original. Its a copy. Even if it is a 100 percent loss-less copy, it is a copy, and NOT the original. So no.

If it was lossless, that means the copy is indistinguishable from the original. If something is truly indistinguishable from something else, then it is the same thing.

Although, in this case, you could argue that the position of the people makes them distinguishable from eachother. Though, it would seem odd to include one's position in a definition of a person.

 

[Escape Goat]

intellectual masturbation in progress

 

[Scrow]

Fuck no Im not letting my atoms be reorganized, fuck that!

your atoms are being reorganised all the time

it's funny how people see themselves like a closed system. you eat food, you go to the toilet, you exercise (expend energy) etc. we are constantly adding, removing and converting our own atoms.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Every time you go to sleep your consciousness is destroyed and a virtually identical copy created by the chemical reactions in brain takes your place as controller of your body when "you" wake up in the morning.

How is your consciousness "destroyed" by your brain entering a different state?

If you it was a perfect copy and if that copy was made in an instant, for that instant, you would be at two places at once. You would become two (slightly different) people right afterwards, though, since your memories would diverge.

If it was lossless, that means the copy is indistinguishable from the original. If something is truly indistinguishable from something else, then it is the same thing.

Although, in this case, you could argue that the position of the people makes them distinguishable from eachother. Though, it would seem odd to include one's position in a definition of a person.

But only for that instant, which makes the whole point moot because in practical terms it's still death.

Not to mention that a perfect copy is impossible to make.

 

[dejay]

intellectual masturbation in progress

You say that like there's something wrong with it.

Not to mention that a perfect copy is impossible to make.

That isn't the argument - the argument is if a perfect copy is possible, would you use the method.

 

[selig]

I feel like half of you don't realize this is a very common philosophical debate that has existed for thousands of years.

I feel like half of your dont realize that this is a very non-philosophical debate.

You press the beam-button, you are killed, data "goes" from point A to B, another You is created.

Nothing is lost? Well, nothing except you yourself. And it doesnt matter that another You exists, because this won´t be you. It´ll be another you. It´d be like cloning yourself, then stabbing yourself so the clone could live.

 

[Dead Man]

For those who don't get the objections, try this. Say you clones yourself, exactly, perfectly, and in the same room. If you shoot yourself immediately on doing that, are you dead? I would say you are.

Edit: I am fail, and my memory is fail. :lol

 

[K.Sabot]

I watched The Prestige, so no.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

That isn't the argument - the argument is if a perfect copy is possible, would you use the method.

That has not been specified at all in here, and runs counter to the point of the thread: would I use it? No, I wouldn't, because if I knew that was how the system purported to work, then I would know that it was false and could not be true.

 

[scotcheggz]

Yes and yes.

I used to travel a lot when I was younger, but a few years ago I developed health issues that prevent me from travelling, pretty much for the rest of my life.

This thing is basically my dream and It'd take quite a lot of cons to get me to say no. In fact, short of ripping my nutsack off in transit, I'd do it no matter what.

 

[Onemic]

I feel like half of your dont realize that this is a very non-philosophical debate.

You press the beam-button, you are killed, data "goes" from point A to B, another You is created.

Nothing is lost? Well, nothing except you yourself. And it doesnt matter that another You exists, because this won´t be you. It´ll be another you. It´d be like cloning yourself, then stabbing yourself so the clone could live.

Exactly what I've been trying to say from page 1

 

[Dead Man]

Yes and yes.

I used to travel a lot when I was younger, but a few years ago I developed health issues that prevent me from travelling, pretty much for the rest of my life.

This thing is basically my dream and It'd take quite a lot of cons to get me to say no. In fact, short of ripping my nutsack off in transit, I'd do it no matter what.

Funnily enough, this may not help that. Sorry about your health problem though.

 

[scotcheggz]

Funnily enough, this may not help that. Sorry about your health problem though.

:lol

I can't really form a proper opinion or get in on the debate, since I would jump at the chance, but I wonder, if this was possible, what sort of long term effects it might have on people. For example, would people ask themselves later down the line, the questions in this thread?

It could really ruin someone, if they let it.

 

[Wallach]

I'm not particularly terrified of death, I think I would try it.

I feel like my consciousness is really a direct function of my physical brain. I mean, every time you wake, do you ask yourself if "you" are the same you that lived the previous day? What if you are simply a construct? All you have as evidence of your previous existence are your memories of your actions imprinted in your mind.

I don't think I would fear this any more than I would going to sleep.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

I'll be terrified.

You're going to get killed and essentially a cloning machine makes a copy of you.

I remember some thought experiments on this on the History Channel a while ago that added the fact all the machine does is make an exact copy of you in other places. Which does nothing...nothing to stop the ability of making more copies which greatly nullifies any or all questions of your existence and subsequent death as no longer in question; it happened, you're dead and it's just copies of you.

There is no religious, conscious, philosophical reasoning of metaphysics, you're just dead.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I'm not particularly terrified of death, I think I would try it.

I feel like my consciousness is really a direct function of my physical brain. I mean, every time you wake, do you ask yourself if "you" are the same you that lived the previous day? What if you are simply a construct? All you have as evidence of your previous existence are your memories of your actions imprinted in your mind.

I don't think I would fear this any more than I would going to sleep.

Well yeah, we could all be brains in a jar in the Matrix in the dream of a butterfly.

But in the case of such a perfect illusion, we would have no way of determining whether the world was real or not. So we have no choice but to act on our experiences and what we perceive as real.

In the case of this method of teleportation however, it's possible to logically determine whether the product is a construct with the implanted memories fo the original.

 

[Dead Man]

:lol

I can't really form a proper opinion or get in on the debate, since I would jump at the chance, but I wonder, if this was possible, what sort of long term effects it might have on people. For example, would people ask themselves later down the line, the questions in this thread?

It could really ruin someone, if they let it.

Yeah, I can imagine quite a few second thoughts after the fact, depending on the process.

I'll be terrified.

You're going to get killed and essentially a cloning machine makes a copy of you.

I remember some thought experiments on this on the History Channel a while ago that added the fact all the machine does is make an exact copy of you in other places. Which does nothing...nothing to stop the ability of making more copies which greatly nullifies any or all questions of your existence and subsequent death as no longer in question; it happened, you're dead and it's just copies of you.

There is no religious, conscious, philosophical reasoning of metaphysics, you're just dead.

Yeah, your current body being destroyed is not part of the process of teleportation, it is just necessary so there are not 2 of you. I don't think there is any way around the fact the you are dead, and another entity is created.

 

[Pandaman]

You do know that just the copy and not the original, being you, would come out of the other end right?

you do know that the matter that makes up your body has only been around for a couple months, right?

you're just a copy of the you from last year, the you of now is disintegrating as we speak, you shouldn't be so attached to it.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

you do know that the matter that makes up your body has only been around for a couple months, right?

you're just a copy of the you from last year, the you of now is disintegrating as we speak, you shouldn't be so attached to it.

A copy is a new creation made out of different parts, made to resemble an original.

The matter that makes up my body now is still a part of me, and it will exist when more new matter becomes a part of me, then exits and no longer is part of me. That's change over time. My body was not instantly replaced by new identical matter one morning.

 

[Dead Man]

you do know that the matter that makes up your body has only been around for a couple months, right?

you're just a copy of the you from last year, the you of now is disintegrating as we speak, you shouldn't be so attached to it.

Changing 1 atom at a time is not the same as destroying the whole body. I really think some of the people saying you don't die or it doesn't matter MUST believe in a soul that would move to the new body or something. A materialist view would hold that once this body is destroyed, you are dead.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Yeah, I can imagine quite a few second thoughts after the fact, depending on the process.


Yeah, your current body being destroyed is not part of the process of teleportation, it is just necessary so there are not 2 of you. I don't think there is any way around the fact the you are dead, and another entity is created.

Yeah, if the machines popped out 2 copies of you on the other side, you aren't 2 people on the other side, just dead, and now there are multiple copies of you running around.

 

[scotcheggz]

Yeah, if the machines popped out 2 copies of you on the other side, you aren't 2 people on the other side, just dead, and now there are multiple copies of you running around.

How would you decide which one would be "disposed of" and would it be considered humane to do such a thing? Questions, questions.

 

[Wallach]

A copy is a new creation made out of different parts, made to resemble an original.

The matter that makes up my body now is still a part of me, and it will exist when more new matter becomes a part of me, then exits and no longer is part of me. That's change over time. My body was not instantly replaced by new identical matter one morning.

My understanding of "Star Trek" teleporters is that the matter is disassembled and reconstructed at the new location - the matter is not destroyed, rather the same matter is used in the reconstruction.

In that sense, it would be 100% of the physicality that you are currently, and not entirely new matter making a secondary construct.

 

[NZNova]

Hell yeah I'd use it. Don't be a bunch of pussies. Keep a copy of me on disk in case I get hit by a flying car, while you're at it.

 

[ckohler]

But you're right; the transporter isn't a transporter. It's a copier/suicide/3D printing device wrapped into one. It just looks like your teleporting.

You're wrong. I can quote the official TNG Technical manual if you like.

 

[AzureNightmare]

You're wrong. I can quote the official TNG Technical manual if you like.

I Love how the trekkies are wtfpwning the naysayers in this thread.

 

[Pandaman]

Changing 1 atom at a time is not the same as destroying the whole body.

why not? at what speed does this difference manifest? if i change every atom in your body one at a time in a single second, does that count?

feel free to go into some detail.

I really think some of the people saying you don't die or it doesn't matter MUST believe in a soul that would move to the new body or something. A materialist view would hold that once this body is destroyed, you are dead.

you're effectively arguing that if you take apart and rebuild a lego tower, it isn't the same tower. even if the pieces are the same and organized in a like matter. this special relationship of self that you are construing isn't materialist in nature or based on any science that i am aware of.

answer this for me: when a seismic P wave strikes the solid inner core of the earth and undergoes mode conversion to an s wave, propagates through the core and reconverts to a p wave upon meeting the liquid outer core on the other side, was the wave destroyed at some point?

 

[Dead Man]

why not? at what speed does this difference manifest? if i change every atom in your body in a single second, does that count?

feel free to go into some detail.


you're effectively arguing that if you take apart and rebuild a lego tower, it isn't the same tower. even if the pieces are the same and organized in a like matter. this special relationship of self that you are construing isn't materialist in nature or based on any science that i am aware of.

answer this for me: when a seismic P wave strikes the solid inner core of the earth and undergoes mode conversion to an s wave, propagates through the core and reconverts to a p wave upon meeting the liquid outer core on the other side, was the wave destroyed at some point?

Nope, not going to bother. Go transport yourself somewhere.

Edit: Actually, just stop being so obtuse. If you clone yourself, would you shoot yourself in head afterwards?

Edit2: And really, you think I am talking about the speed of the particle replacement? You have missed the point completely. It is not about the speed of the thing. If you took 1 atom a day from my body and added 1 atom a day to the clone, I would still be dead at the end of the process.