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[osnameless]

Which COULD pass as a sound argument if any of the games protected by Denuvo distinguished themselves as positive outliers in terms of sales.
Too bad that never seems to happen. They generally perform on the average of their genre/budget/target audience and occasionally even under-perform (not saying BECAUSE of Denuvo, but still interesting to note).

Also, the games being cracked or not seems to hardly ever effect the "curve" of how sales go.
Doom kept selling the same average of copies daily and even experienced a small surge (probably more related to the recent update at the time) in the following days to when the game was cracked.

This should be the big elephant in the room to address in any attempt to argue that "DRM are necessary to keep the market alive".

I am not disagreeing with you, but it is also really hard to dismiss the possibility that a game had better sales because it was protected against piracy in its opening weeks.

The problem is, the PC market's behavior towards a game is somewhat hard to predict. Some games simply perform well, while other flop on PC, and in either cases, it is hard to pinpoint a specific reason (more often that not it is not piracy though).

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the PC demographic is versatile to a great extent.

Of course taking goodwill measures contribute to better sales (optimized games, good support etc...)

But overall, the PC market has always been hard to predict, at least for me.

 

[holygeesus]

But you're still willing to pay full price for the titles you feel that way about?

I never pay full price for PC games. Certainly not Steam prices anyway. Either way, the DRM featured would never be a consideration to me, as to whether I purchase a game or not.

I guess you don't play many old games on PC then, or are oblivious to games which previously had DRM and are only working today due to its removal - whether by the publisher/developer (rare) or via cracks.

I don't play many old games on PC but I am not oblivious to the issues surrounding past copy protection methods (and their failures). I just don't care about preservation of digital video games. It's a personal opinion of course and I fully respect those who have a differing one - it is legitimately the only reason I can see for people being against DRM and I respect that.

Digital gaming has never been about ownership to me. All the while you are relying on Steam delivering your product to you, you aren't really in ownership of it. It is why I still try and buy boxed retail games, which is becoming increasingly rare an opportunity. Unless a box sits on my shelf, with the disc inside it, it doesn't feel like ownership to me. Granted, even boxed PC games can stop working in the same way, but again, it wouldn't be the end of the world for me, as game preservation isn't high on my priorities in life. I prioritise a company making a product, securing their product and being able to produce more products in the future more, hence I support copy protection.

 

[Durante]

The ability to still play the game 5-10 years from now, without being sold it again. (at least now that it's cracked)
Not having to rely on other companies actively supporting their old products in order to play them on current hardware or fear that support will be removed with system updates.
The ability to mod the game.
To play multiplayer without squashing the image or on a rotated display.
To play at higher resolutions without blurring or lag from upscaling.
To use any controller that you want - like an original Genesis or Saturn gamepad.

Any of my digital Xbox purchases - whether games or DLC - are completely lost now. There is no way to retrieve them if I buy an Xbox One today.
Even if I still have the discs, I can't play my Xbox games today.
There is limited 360 backwards compatibility on the Xbox One, so I would only be able to play some of my previously purchased games. Many XBLA games like Rez HD are unsupported.
There is no backwards compatibility for PSN at all, as far as I am aware. All of my PS3 purchases are gone now that Sony no longer manufacture PS3 hardware.

Well said.

 

[Agent_Carnage]

Good Denuvo is scum of the earth. Why would they need that much invasive of a DRM for a Sonic game of all things.

 

[CecilRousso]

I never pay full price for PC games. Certainly not Steam prices anyway. Either way, the DRM featured would never be a consideration to me, as to whether I purchase a game or not.

You don't pay full price for the games, so you don't see them as actual purchases that you own, and you don't care about the inclusion of excessive DRM in your purchases. It's no wonder that you seem to struggle with the reasons for why many others here actually have reservations about Denuvo.

 

[Sentenza]

You don't pay full price for the games, so you don't see them as actual purchases that you own, and you don't care about the inclusion of excessive DRM in your purchases. It's no wonder that you seem to struggle with the reasons for why many others here actually have reservations about Denuvo.

Pretty much.
"Hey guys, I don't care about this PC gaming thing, so I'm not sure why you do!".

 

[holygeesus]

You don't pay full price for the games, so you don't see them as actual purchases that you own, and you don't care about the inclusion of excessive DRM in your purchases. It's no wonder that you seem to struggle with the reasons for why many others here actually have reservations about Denuvo.

I don't see digital purchases as ownership, it has nothing to do with the price. I pay full price for console games without issue.

 

[CecilRousso]

I don't see digital purchases as ownership, it has nothing to do with the price. I pay full price for console games without issue.

It's a bit odd to not be able to see digital purchases as worthy of full price, if they digital purchases are packaged right. If they're sold like that on PC, you actually have more ownership for them, then on you have on modern consoles.

And if we start/continue to not accept things like Denuvo, we will have ownership of our digital purchases on PC, regardless if you care to look at them like that or not.

For all these cases, ownership is not a question at all.

When Steam offers DRM free downloads
Games that are sold with both Steam key and a DRM free option through the Humble Store and other sites.
The completely DRM free games on GOG and similiar sites.

Denuvo is a threat to all of those.

 

[Tizoc]

The ability to still play the game 5-10 years from now, without being sold it again. (at least now that it's cracked)
Not having to rely on other companies actively supporting their old products in order to play them on current hardware or fear that support will be removed with system updates.
The ability to mod the game.
To play multiplayer without squashing the image or on a rotated display.
To play at higher resolutions without blurring or lag from upscaling.
To use any controller that you want - like an original Genesis or Saturn gamepad.

Any of my digital Xbox purchases - whether games or DLC - are completely lost now. There is no way to retrieve them if I buy an Xbox One today.
Even if I still have the discs, I can't play my Xbox games today.
There is limited 360 backwards compatibility on the Xbox One, so I would only be able to play some of my previously purchased games. Many XBLA games like Rez HD are unsupported.
There is no backwards compatibility for PSN at all, as far as I am aware. All of my PS3 purchases are gone now that Sony no longer manufacture PS3 hardware.


I guess you don't play many old games on PC then, or are oblivious to games which previously had DRM and are only working today due to its removal - whether by the publisher/developer (rare) or via cracks.

Your ps3 purchases are still available and u can download them again to a new ps3 or even ur old ps3 if u still have it
You can still buy ps3s be it from ebay or amazon etc
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=playstation+3

 

[gelf]

The ability to still play the game 5-10 years from now, without being sold it again. (at least now that it's cracked)
Not having to rely on other companies actively supporting their old products in order to play them on current hardware or fear that support will be removed with system updates.
The ability to mod the game.
To play multiplayer without squashing the image or on a rotated display.
To play at higher resolutions without blurring or lag from upscaling.
To use any controller that you want - like an original Genesis or Saturn gamepad.

Any of my digital Xbox purchases - whether games or DLC - are completely lost now. There is no way to retrieve them if I buy an Xbox One today.
Even if I still have the discs, I can't play my Xbox games today.
There is limited 360 backwards compatibility on the Xbox One, so I would only be able to play some of my previously purchased games. Many XBLA games like Rez HD are unsupported.
There is no backwards compatibility for PSN at all, as far as I am aware. All of my PS3 purchases are gone now that Sony no longer manufacture PS3 hardware.


I guess you don't play many old games on PC then, or are oblivious to games which previously had DRM and are only working today due to its removal - whether by the publisher/developer (rare) or via cracks.

This is why I find those who say "I'm getting the console version because of the DRM" the most confusing. I think if your that anti DRM you should be boycotting all versions and never buying on console since any modern console game is more locked down from modification then any PC DRM will be.

 

[KimonoNoNo]

Are these true cracks i.e you can strip or bypass DRM on your Steam download, or are they only available as pre-cracked torrents?

 

[Deathknell]

Game got patched to 1.03, new exe with new denuvo.
Cracked in 7 hours.

GG sega

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

They're pretty insistent on that shit, aren't they?

 

[Lupin the Third]

Any of my digital Xbox purchases - whether games or DLC - are completely lost now. There is no way to retrieve them if I buy an Xbox One today.
Even if I still have the discs, I can't play my Xbox games today.
There is limited 360 backwards compatibility on the Xbox One, so I would only be able to play some of my previously purchased games. Many XBLA games like Rez HD are unsupported.

And in ~10 years, none of them will likely work in an Xbox One because playing them in Xbox One hardware requires what is basically an ISO download and installation. Will the servers still be up? Original Xbox Live servers sure aren't, as they were shut down 5 years after the system was discontinued.

 

[Guess Who]

Are these true cracks i.e you can strip or bypass DRM on your Steam download, or are they only available as pre-cracked torrents?

Yes, you can drop just the crack in your Steam download folder.

 

[Earth]

Game got patched to 1.03, new exe with new denuvo.
Cracked in 7 hours.

The game's already pirated. Who are SEGA Europe trying to fight here? Their customers?

 

[Diablohead]

Game got patched to 1.03, new exe with new denuvo.
Cracked in 7 hours.

GG sega

Dear SEGA, just stop already.

 

[Tank Jr.]

Your ps3 purchases are still available and u can download them again to a new ps3 or even ur old ps3 if u still have it
You can still buy ps3s be it from ebay or amazon etc
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=playstation+3

You're totally missing the point here.

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

Game got patched to 1.03, new exe with new denuvo.
Cracked in 7 hours.

GG sega

You know, when I saw that update for a second I thought they would actually remove the DRM, so I started the game in offline mode and got the "you must be online" shit. Why even bother keeping the DRM. The games out there and the pirates get the better version.

 

[CecilRousso]

The game's already pirated. Who are SEGA Europe trying to fight here? Their customers?

They just really don't want to admit in this case.

 

[Earth]

They just really don't want to admit in this case.

SEGA: The game's been cracked! Gotta patch fast!
--
Cracking Group: Gotta crack fast!
(Tomorrow)
SEGA: The game's been cracked again?! Gotta patch faster!
etc.

The new Sonic cycle.

What planet are SEGA on?

 

[c0Zm1c]

The game's already pirated. Who are SEGA Europe trying to fight here? Their customers?

Of course.

 

[ChryZ]

Game got patched to 1.03, new exe with new denuvo.
Cracked in 7 hours.

GG sega

They're really hell bent on not wanting my money.

 

[Jazzem]

Game got patched to 1.03, new exe with new denuvo.
Cracked in 7 hours.

GG sega

Ah man, that's why my installed mods weren't working earlier...

 

[-Gozer-]

I did my part by getting a refund and sending my complaint to Sega. Unfortunately I only received a copy paste response from them not even addressing my issue with Denuvo. It even told me to "enjoy my copy of Sonic Mania" even though I mentioned getting a refund due to the tacked on DRM.

Was all this negative PR really worth it?

 

[CecilRousso]

Was all this negative PR really worth it?

Really doubt it, in terms of money gained. The games sales stalled pretty quickly after the intitial hype, and the Steam forums are still flooded with negative discussions about Denuvo.

That said, there can of course be other goals from them, like taking some hits now, in hope of people tiring about caring in future releases, so that they can normalize the use of it.

 

[Sentenza]

Of course.

This is perfect.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'll be honest.... much as I hate Denuvo and I understand those who want their Steam purchase to be offline/DRM-free....

I think people would pirate the shit out of this ~200mb game that runs on any PC. I don't blame Sega for at least trying to get legitimate buyers in the launch window.

But by all means please patch it the fuck out, now that the Denuvo crack is out of the bag.

 

[Ascheroth]

I'll be honest.... much as I hate Denuvo and I understand those who want their Steam purchase to be offline/DRM-free....

I think people would pirate the shit out of this ~200mb game that runs on any PC. I don't blame Sega for at least trying to get legitimate buyers in the launch window.

But by all means please patch it the fuck out, now that the Denuvo crack is out of the bag.

Not completely replying to you, but.
If that launch window is so important, why not just guarantee that Denuvo will be removed after 1 or 2 months or something? That would solve most of the complaints.

And please don't tell me 'But then pirates would just wait that time' if the entire argument is 'Denuvo is effective because pirates can't wait'.

 

[BocoDragon]

Not completely replying to you, but.
If that launch window is so important, why not just guarantee that Denuvo will be removed after 1 or 2 months or something? That would solve most of the complaints.

And please don't tell me 'But then pirates would just wait that time' if the entire argument is 'Denuvo is effective because pirates can't wait'.

I see your point.. that might be a good idea.

But maybe they're doing that anyway. Even with your caveat of "pirates won't wait".... true... but there's something funky about saying "in 2 months our software will be pirateable". Even if they are planning on phasing it out... how can they publicly make a statement like that?

 

[Ascheroth]

I see your point.. that might be a good idea.

But maybe they're doing that anyway. Even with your caveat of "pirates won't wait".... true... but there's something funky about saying "in 2 months our software will be pirateable". Even if they are planning on phasing it out... how can they publicly make a statement like that?

Well, it's going to be pirateable way before those 2 months anyway (as seen in the case of Sonic here).
That statement would only serve to assuage the customers, who are against Denuvo because of the fear that it will become unusable eventually in the future, reducing the shitstorm and bad word of mouth somewhat while still 'protecting the launch window'.

 

[MaLDo]

SEGA: The game's been cracked! Gotta patch fast!
--
Cracking Group: Gotta crack fast!
(Tomorrow)
SEGA: The game's been cracked again?! Gotta patch faster!
etc.

The new Sonic cycle.

What planet are SEGA on?

You're missing a point here. The moment the game is cracked one first time, every one that want to download it can do it no matter how many updates the dev updates it after the crack.

 

[test_account]

The ability to still play the game 5-10 years from now, without being sold it again. (at least now that it's cracked)
Not having to rely on other companies actively supporting their old products in order to play them on current hardware or fear that support will be removed with system updates.
The ability to mod the game.
To play multiplayer without squashing the image or on a rotated display.
To play at higher resolutions without blurring or lag from upscaling.
To use any controller that you want - like an original Genesis or Saturn gamepad.

Any of my digital Xbox purchases - whether games or DLC - are completely lost now. There is no way to retrieve them if I buy an Xbox One today.
Even if I still have the discs, I can't play my Xbox games today.
There is limited 360 backwards compatibility on the Xbox One, so I would only be able to play some of my previously purchased games. Many XBLA games like Rez HD are unsupported.
There is no backwards compatibility for PSN at all, as far as I am aware. All of my PS3 purchases are gone now that Sony no longer manufacture PS3 hardware.

Thanks for the answer, these are some pros for the PC version indeed. I didnt get the impression that these were the things that he/she (the guy i asked) was thinking about though when making the comparision.

The ability to still play the game 5-10 years from now, without being sold it again. (at least now that it's cracked)

There is no backwards compatibility for PSN at all, as far as I am aware. All of my PS3 purchases are gone now that Sony no longer manufacture PS3 hardware.

This will also be the case for consoles. 5-10 years isnt that long. PS3 is over 10 years old now and all purchase made through the store are still available. Your purchases are not gone now.

There is backwards compability for PSN. I've downloaded PSP games on my Vita.

Not having to rely on other companies actively supporting their old products in order to play them on current hardware or fear that support will be removed with system updates.

This is also something that you can run into on PC. I've tried playing older games on newer PCs, they dont always work as intended, or not working at all. DOSBox luckily works on a lot of DOS related stuff, but there is no "Win95/98 Box" software for example, at least that i know of.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well, it's going to be pirateable way before those 2 months anyway (as seen in the case of Sonic here).
That statement would only serve to assuage the customers, who are against Denuvo because of the fear that it will become unusable eventually in the future, reducing the shitstorm and bad word of mouth somewhat while still 'protecting the launch window'.

^ I do think there's something possibly there regarding company messaging.

But maybe we have to see the track record of companies constantly removing Denuvo after a few months and then we will all get the *wink wink* memo that Denuvo is always a temporary thing.

So I hope they do remove it, each and every time.

 

[Saoshyant]

interesting that he links to SEGA.co.uk

guess it was a SEGA of Europe decision

iirc doesn't SoE run the ”PC publishing" arm of Sega these days?

Yes, Sega Europe is literally their PC branch to the point they don't even distribute Sega own console titles in Europe and rely on third parties for this.

There's actually some history here since this has been going on long before Sega started acquiring PC studios like Creative Assembly, Relic, and a bunch more -- it hails all the way back to the mid 90's when the European branch started porting Saturn games to the PC.

After lingering there without much purpose in the past decade, Sega America these days is former Atlus USA, only responsible for English localizations. Sega Japan is the arcade and mobile branch, occasionally trying to create new media franchises like Hero Bank and Uta Kumi 575, but mostly sticking to what they usually do and taking few risks.

Speaking of the Sega PC branch, there were some other PC-only studios outside Europe for a while. The USA had SegaSoft, a partnership between CSK and Sega, which went on to make quite a few exclusive PC games that have never been re-released (not even on GOG) and are now lost (like Emperor of the Fading Suns). They also created a multiplayer network called Heat.net. Australia had their own Sega Studios, too, but it was just a rebranded branch of Creative Assembly -- Stormrise (a critically panned game) was one their last titles before being shut down.

 

[Ascheroth]

^ I do think there's something possibly there regarding company messaging.

But maybe we have to see the track record of companies constantly removing Denuvo after a few months and then we will all get the *wink wink* memo that Denuvo is always a temporary thing.

So I hope they do remove it, each and every time.

The problem here is that the ones removing Denuvo are actually by far the minority.

 

[Paragon]

This will also be the case for consoles. 5-10 years isnt that long. PS3 is over 10 years old now and all purchase made through the store are still available. Your purchases are not gone now.

There is backwards compability for PSN. I've downloaded PSP games on my Vita.

You can't play PS3 games on a PS4 at all, and the console won't play PS1 or PS2 discs despite having backwards compatibility for some of those games.
The only PS1 or PS2 games you can play are ones that you have purchased again off PSN.

Sony no longer manufactures PS3 hardware. None of the games stores or Amazon here seem to have new consoles any more, only pre-owned - and it's only been a year since they stopped manufacturing them. (outside of Japan)
There may still be some places with old stock, but the only ones I saw were priced about twice as much as it costs to buy a PS4, and they probably won't have stock for long.

Nobody here knows how much longer PSN will remain available for the PS3 systems.
They could shut that down at any time, like Microsoft did with Xbox Live for the original Xbox.

I'm still able to play games that I bought 25+ years ago on completely new PC hardware today, on Windows 10.
There are many more recent games (<10 years) which have used DRM of some form that now have problems running on Windows 10 without a crack or newly released DRM-free version though.

This is also something that you can run into on PC. I've tried playing older games on newer PCs, they dont always work as intended, or not working at all. DOSBox luckily works on a lot of DOS related stuff, but there is no "Win95/98 Box" software for example, at least that i know of.

You can still get most games running on Windows 10 today. For the rest, there is Wine, PCem, virtual machines, wrappers like dgVoodoo, DXGL.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Ah man, that's why my installed mods weren't working earlier...

That sucks considering the makers of this game got their start modding Sonic games.

SMH

 

[test_account]

You can't play PS3 games on a PS4 at all, and the console won't play PS1 or PS2 discs despite having backwards compatibility for some of those games.
The only PS1 or PS2 games you can play are ones that you have purchased again off PSN.

Sony no longer manufactures PS3 hardware. None of the games stores or Amazon here seem to have new consoles any more, only pre-owned - and it's only been a year since they stopped manufacturing them. (outside of Japan)
There may still be some places with old stock, but the only ones I saw were priced about twice as much as it costs to buy a PS4, and they probably won't have stock for long.

Nobody here knows how much longer PSN will remain available for the PS3 systems.
They could shut that down at any time, like Microsoft did with Xbox Live for the original Xbox.

I'm still able to play games that I bought 25+ years ago on completely new PC hardware today, on Windows 10.
There are many more recent games (<10 years) which have used DRM of some form that now have problems running on Windows 10 without a crack or newly released DRM-free version though.

Thats true, but you were talking about 5-10 years from now, saying that it wouldnt be possible to play Sonic Mania on PS4/Xbox One/Switch in 5-10 years. I'm not arguing that its easier to play older games on PC, just saying that it wont be that short of a timeframe that you mentioned

Its also being speculated in that backward compability will be done with PS4/Xbox One, and that this is one reason why they went with X86. That doesnt guarantee 100% backward compability of course, but at least it has a better chance to happen. If this happends, your digital content will still be available for even a longer time.

Getting old hardware is no problem, if that is what you mean? Especially for systems that have solds tens of millions.

Sony stopped producing PSP hardware many years ago, but all the content that you bought is still available. Its true that the services might shut down some day in the future, but it could be quite some time until that happends (not like it matters with PSP anyway, every firmware version can be hacked, so you can get the games elsewhere if the services should shut down and you need to redownload it).

The reason why you have to repurchase the PS2 games again on PS4 is because they added trophy support. Its a recompile of the game and not the exact same SKU/version as on PS3. I guess it could techincally be possible to flag the earlier purchases though, so that a repurchase would be necessary.

You can still get most games running on Windows 10 today. For the rest, there is Wine, PCem, virtual machines, wrappers like dgVoodoo, DXGL.

Thats true, i forgot about VM. Are those runing fine today? Its been a while since i've tried it, but then it was pretty slow.

 

[prudislav]

You can still get most games running on Windows 10 today. For the rest, there is Wine, PCem, virtual machines, wrappers like dgVoodoo, DXGL.

Anyone knows if Denuvo works under Wine or in VM??? I remmber seeing that it does not , but not sure if its still the case

 

[c0Zm1c]

Not completely replying to you, but.
If that launch window is so important, why not just guarantee that Denuvo will be removed after 1 or 2 months or something? That would solve most of the complaints.

And please don't tell me 'But then pirates would just wait that time' if the entire argument is 'Denuvo is effective because pirates can't wait'.

A mandatory removal after a set time, enforced by the Denuvo company itself, is a really good idea. It's effectiveness is only temporary after all (and has shrunk down to mere hours in some instances now anyway!) and, as we've seen in the few cases where the developers/publishers have elected to remove it themselves, it can reverse much of the bad press it generates by being used in the first place.

The problem here is that the ones removing Denuvo are actually by far the minority.

Yeah, the notion that it always gets removed, or removed from the majority of games that use it, is a myth that really needs quashing.

 

[BigEmil]

Now that Denuvo of it cracked surely they will sell it on GOG now DRM free you'll get more potential sales right

 

[HyGogg]

I'll be honest.... much as I hate Denuvo and I understand those who want their Steam purchase to be offline/DRM-free....

I think people would pirate the shit out of this ~200mb game that runs on any PC. I don't blame Sega for at least trying to get legitimate buyers in the launch window.

But by all means please patch it the fuck out, now that the Denuvo crack is out of the bag.

Delaying the game to add DRM and thus pushing it out of said prime launch window, however, is a special kind of stupid.