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[Sanjuro]

Sonic 3 is only the decline in that it sold less than Sonic 2 thanks to Sega breaking the game in half. If you have some other criteria you want to argue about, stop dancing around the point and say it.

What are you taking about? I've already spoke about my thoughts on the game. It isn't a terrible game. The graphical direction of the game turned me off much as the Game Gear versions began to at that time. It became clear even as a kid that SEGA wasn't going in the proper direction. The game was still "fun" although there wasn't much I enjoyed. After that there was even less. Now there is nothing.

Sonic 3 wasn't amazing, but & Knuckles drags it by it's lapels up to legendary status, which is what the game always should have been. So you can take your little one man crusade and stick it Sanjuro!

It's no one man crusade. Many people prefer Sonic 1 or 2 over Sonic 3. Like I said it wasn't a terrible game, it just marks the decline in the franchise. I was being more vocal as you guys were dragging Sonic 2 through the shitter and back out.

 

[Diablohead]

I rank S3 alone below sonic 1 and 2 due to it's rushed and buggy status, most problems don't arise in regular gameplay but once you bump into a few of them it's tails in icecap has to die to progress past a certain point, getting pushed into walls or even jumping through certain slopes, a super lame final boss made in a lunchtime break, half arsed level select screen still listing all the S&K stages... the game looked amazing for it's release though, Supersonic music wants me to stab my eardrums.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

Well how do you feel about Sonic & Knuckles then? Because you can't "mark the decline" if the following game is considered by many as the very pinnacle of the entire series and for many the entire 16-bit generation.

 

[Sanjuro]

Well how do you feel about Sonic & Knuckles then? Because you can't "mark the decline" if the following game is considered by many as the very pinnacle of the entire series and for many the entire 16-bit generation.

They are both the same game basically. They both came out roughly around the same time. As a kid I never received games very often so for Christmas I ended up getting both. I never liked Knuckles as a character so I played as him less than a handful of times (same with Tails). The pinnacle was the release of Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 for me along with the Game Gear releases that were spectacular and a better challenge for Sonic 2. Sonic 3/Knuckles both came out at a time where I was getting ready for the Saturn and Playstation.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

Can't agree. In the space of that year, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Earthworm Jim and Dynamite Headdy made that probably the best Mega Drive year I'd experienced yet and I couldn't give a shit about the next generation at that time. So the reason you were less than enthused about the tail end of the 16-bit classics is because you were woo'd by the new shiny (and shitty/blocky) 3d things. Weak!

 

[Sanjuro]

Can't agree. In the space of that year, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Earthworm Jim and Dynamite Headdy made that probably the best Mega Drive year I'd experienced yet and I couldn't give a shit about the next generation at that time. So the reason you were less than enthused about the tail end of the 16-bit classics is because you were woo'd by the new shiny (and shitty/blocky) 3d things. Weak!

Not true. I played my NES regularly and more than the Genesis up until the release of the 32-Bit consoles. Some of the games at the end of the life of the NES and the re-playability I found to be more enjoyable. I was always fond of the Genesis, I just never thought of it in that way.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Though I personally enjoy Sonic 1 and 2 more than 3 and Knuckles, I don't know if I'd say that Sonic 3 was the beginning of the decline.

Yeah, I admit the art style/graphics were a bit of a turn-off compared to the previous entries. And I definitely enjoyed the music from 1&2 a lot more.

But gameplay-wise, it's just as good as Sonic 2, really. There's no drop in quality there.

If we're going by sales, keep in mind that Sonic 1 and 2's sales are largely affected by the fact that they were the pack-in games for the Genesis for a lengthy period of time.

Also, by the time Sonic 3 came out, "Sonic", as a franchise, had started to teeter off quite a bit. I recall right before Sonic 2 came out, everybody was going fucking NUTS in anticipation for it.

For Sonic 3, there was excitement...but it wasn't the second coming of Jesus like Sonic 2 was.

 

[f-castrillo]

I actually liked the art style in Sonic 3, which was really just taking the existing Sonic graphic design and honing it a little more. There was more scenery to look at, and the characters were slightly recolored/redrawn to match the revised styling. I also liked the double jump shields, as well as the shield-less double jump thing. Double jumps also came in handy when going Super transformation - I hated that in Sonic 2, once you hit 50 rings, you couldn't avoid becoming Super if you wanted/had to jump.

 

[Sanjuro]

Though I personally enjoy Sonic 1 and 2 more than 3 and Knuckles, I don't know if I'd say that Sonic 3 was the beginning of the decline.

The following titles followed Sonic 3/Knuckles in the Sonic franchise.

Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Triple Trouble
Knuckles Chaotix
Tails Adventure

After Sonic and Knuckles and these titles and leading into what was a non-existent 32-bit era for Sonic left me feeling pretty down on the franchise back then.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

The following titles followed Sonic 3/Knuckles in the Sonic franchise.

Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Triple Trouble
Knuckles Chaotix
Tails Adventure

After Sonic and Knuckles and these titles and leading into what was a non-existent 32-bit era for Sonic left me feeling pretty down on the franchise back then.

As it should.

The only Sonic games that exist are the 5 Genesis games.

Yeah, yeah, there was enjoyment to be found in games like Sonic Adventure...and Tails Adventure has it's share of followers.

But I don't think the 'fall of Sonic' can be attributed to the quality of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. After the completion of Sonic 3(and Knuckles) 'Sonic Team' felt as if they were finished with Sonic for good. Before Sonic 3 came out, there were rumors that the '3rd part of the Sonic trilogy' was nearing completion, leading some to believe that there would be no further Sonic titles. When the Saturn came out, Sega said they didn't want to create a brand-new Sonic game because they were tired of being known as the "company that produces Sonic games" and nothing else. The only reason games like 'Sonic 3D' and 'Sonic R' were created was because Sega of America knew that it desperately needed Sonic in order to be successful. So they commissioned an independent developer to create those games.

The main reason Sonic Adventure came to be was that late in the Saturn's life cycle, Sega had realized it's drastic mistake in abandoning their mascot and were hard at work on coming up with a sort of Sonic RPG for the Saturn. Of course, the Saturn ultimately died, and the 'Sonic RPG' eventually evolved into a launch title for the Dreamcast...

So, in conclusion, the real reason that Sonic fell from grace was because his fathers abandoned him. The 3 men that were mostly responsible for his success didn't want anything more to do with him and by the time they were eager to have him back, the video game landscape was an entirely different one.

 

[Sanjuro]

Oh, I don't believe Sonic 3/Knuckles are the direct cause of the decline. It's the marque title of that period where the series dropped. I didn't enjoy the game and many of its new features as the previous titles. The series on both Sega platforms declined...it was a shitty time.

Both versions of Sonic 2 are my favorite in the series. Simple as that. I love the graphic style, level design, music in both games.

 

[wRATH2x]

Very evil yet very boring.

 

[RagnarokX]

As it should.

The only Sonic games that exist are the 5 Genesis games.

Yeah, yeah, there was enjoyment to be found in games like Sonic Adventure...and Tails Adventure has it's share of followers.

But I don't think the 'fall of Sonic' can be attributed to the quality of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. After the completion of Sonic 3(and Knuckles) 'Sonic Team' felt as if they were finished with Sonic for good. Before Sonic 3 came out, there were rumors that the '3rd part of the Sonic trilogy' was nearing completion, leading some to believe that there would be no further Sonic titles. When the Saturn came out, Sega said they didn't want to create a brand-new Sonic game because they were tired of being known as the "company that produces Sonic games" and nothing else. The only reason games like 'Sonic 3D' and 'Sonic R' were created was because Sega of America knew that it desperately needed Sonic in order to be successful. So they commissioned an independent developer to create those games.

The main reason Sonic Adventure came to be was that late in the Saturn's life cycle, Sega had realized it's drastic mistake in abandoning their mascot and were hard at work on coming up with a sort of Sonic RPG for the Saturn. Of course, the Saturn ultimately died, and the 'Sonic RPG' eventually evolved into a launch title for the Dreamcast...

So, in conclusion, the real reason that Sonic fell from grace was because his fathers abandoned him. The 3 men that were mostly responsible for his success didn't want anything more to do with him and by the time they were eager to have him back, the video game landscape was an entirely different one.

Sonic Team started trying to fundamentally change the franchise before Sonic 3. Sonic 3 was originally going to be a 3D isometric game, but they changed their minds because they felt it was too soon.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

Sonic Team started trying to fundamentally change the franchise before Sonic 3. Sonic 3 was originally going to be a 3D isometric game, but they changed their minds because they felt it was too soon.

Man, they dodged a bullet with that one.

 

[riceandbeans]

As it should.

The only Sonic games that exist are the 5 Genesis games.

Yeah, yeah, there was enjoyment to be found in games like Sonic Adventure...and Tails Adventure has it's share of followers.

But I don't think the 'fall of Sonic' can be attributed to the quality of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. After the completion of Sonic 3(and Knuckles) 'Sonic Team' felt as if they were finished with Sonic for good. Before Sonic 3 came out, there were rumors that the '3rd part of the Sonic trilogy' was nearing completion, leading some to believe that there would be no further Sonic titles. When the Saturn came out, Sega said they didn't want to create a brand-new Sonic game because they were tired of being known as the "company that produces Sonic games" and nothing else. The only reason games like 'Sonic 3D' and 'Sonic R' were created was because Sega of America knew that it desperately needed Sonic in order to be successful. So they commissioned an independent developer to create those games.

The main reason Sonic Adventure came to be was that late in the Saturn's life cycle, Sega had realized it's drastic mistake in abandoning their mascot and were hard at work on coming up with a sort of Sonic RPG for the Saturn. Of course, the Saturn ultimately died, and the 'Sonic RPG' eventually evolved into a launch title for the Dreamcast...

So, in conclusion, the real reason that Sonic fell from grace was because his fathers abandoned him. The 3 men that were mostly responsible for his success didn't want anything more to do with him and by the time they were eager to have him back, the video game landscape was an entirely different one.

Sega never abandoned Sonic during the 32-bit era. There were plenty of Sonic games in the pipeline, problem was many of them got cancelled. That's like Nintendo ditching Mario because they don't want to be known as the company who produces only Mario games.

Sonic X-treme was going to be the Saturn's marquee title to bring the console back on top. Internal rumbling between SoJ and SoA were causing huge delays for the game though and SoJ's team was busy with NiGHTs.

Sonic's decline wasn't because he was "abandoned". It was because of a huge franchise mismanagement.

 

[RobbieNick]

So speaking solely to the people who liked unleashed. How did you like sonic and the secret rings?

Thought it was a way better game than the last few that came before (Heroes, Shadow Sonic '06) But it wasn't perfect. Some missions were frustrating. Having to lean the controller back to step back was stupid. Other than that, an interesting and fun diversion from the main series.

Black Knight sucked though. I liked it okay at first, but after I got past the main story, I realized how shallow and boring it was. Fans seemed to realize it too, as it was Sonic's biggest bomb in a long time. Sales are very low on that game.

The following titles followed Sonic 3/Knuckles in the Sonic franchise.

Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Triple Trouble
Knuckles Chaotix
Tails Adventure

After Sonic and Knuckles and these titles and leading into what was a non-existent 32-bit era for Sonic left me feeling pretty down on the franchise back then.

Post "Sonic 3 and Knuckles" to pre "Sonic Adventure" was the second worst period in Sonic games since the 2004-2006 period of "Heroes", "Shadow" and "Sonic '06"

BTW, Anyone who says Sonic 3 was a poor game is a fucking idiot!

 

[WillyFive]

It's annoying as a new game comes out, the farther back you guys go to say which game started the decline.

We are already to Sonic 3 for crying out loud!

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

In addition, if you "Sonic fans" don't consider Sonic 3 to be the decline of the series then you are in some serious denial. We need a nickname for rational Sonic fans. I love the character. Love the original games. There is just no joy to be had in failure and disappointment spanning over a decade now.

I would hardly call you the poster child for a rational Sonic fan. You're like the anti-Huelen, and I don't mean that as a compliment.

 

[Sanjuro]

I would hardly call you the poster child for a rational Sonic fan. You're like the anti-Huelen, and I don't mean that as a compliment.

You are comparing me to Huelen? How do you figure? How am I irrational?

 

[The Lamonster]

You're crazy. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the definitive Sonic game. So fuck you.

QFT

 

[gutter_trash]

How can Sonic 3 be the start of the decline when Sonic & Kuncles that followed it was the most awesomest Sonic game of them all?

Sonic's decline started with 3D Blast and the lack of representation on the Saturn which created that huge gap between the last Genesis games and the beginning of the 3D games

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

You are comparing me to Huelen? How do you figure? How am I irrational?

Only the crazies think Sonic the Hedgehog 3 was actually a bad game or signifying as any sort of "decline". Next thing we know, you're going to say that Super Mario World was awful because it was a "step back" compared to SMB3.

 

[Sanjuro]

Only the crazies think Sonic the Hedgehog 3 was actually a bad game or signifying as any sort of "decline". Next thing we know, you're going to say that Super Mario World was awful because it was a "step back" compared to SMB3.

I don't think Sonic 3 is a bad game. How about you tell me when the series declined.

 

[The Lamonster]

I don't think Sonic 3 is a bad game. How about you tell me when the series declined.

I can answer this! Sonic 3D Blast. Every Sonic game since has sucked compared to Sonic 1-3/Knuckles.

 

[Sanjuro]

How can Sonic 3 be the start of the decline when Sonic & Kuncles that followed it was the most awesomest Sonic game of them all?

Sonic's decline started with 3D Blast and the lack of representation on the Saturn which created that huge gap between the last Genesis games and the beginning of the 3D games

Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles is basically a two part game that was released less than a year between release dates.

Sonic 3D Blast is not a good game, it doesn't really mark anything other than a poor game. Like Sonic Spinball it is an oddity in the series not developed in house.

 

[Sanjuro]

I can answer this! Sonic 3D Blast. Every Sonic game since has sucked compared to Sonic 1-3/Knuckles.

That isn't saying much. The direction that Sonic 3 / Knuckles took signified the begining of the end. Could they have proved me wrong with a grand title after it's debut? Absolutely. But they didn't and here we are today.

 

[ZealousD]

Man, they dodged a bullet with that one.

And then the bullet came around and hit them in the back of the head.

 

[Big One]

How about you tell me when the series declined.

Series declined at Sonic Adventure.

 

[jman2050]

To be honest, I can kind of see where Sanjuro is coming from. It wasn't obvious at the time, but around the time Sonic 2 came out and they were going to make Sonic 3 it seemed Sega started to get other ideas as to what Sonic games should be like. Hell, you could make the argument that it was like this from the beginning in Japan and that it was Sega of America of all places that refocused Sonic into what he eventually started out as. I could even understand not like Sonic 3 and Knuckles as much as the last two games, as it did play somewhat differently.

Thing is, for most people those changes were almost all good and the result was a game that was improved over its predecessors. So Sanjuro still has the minority opinion

 

[Sanjuro]

Series declined at Sonic Adventure.

You are missing the Sega Saturn here.

@jman - Sure I'm in the minority. Like I said Sonic 2 on Game Gear/SMS is one of my favorites in the series. Many people haven't even played or just wrote this off but it was one of the most challenging titles in the series.

I had a bunch of fun playing Sonic 3 / Knuckles and did like some of the new features. The art style and sound effects were two of my biggest problems with the game and they just never sat well then.

 

[MMaRsu]

Sanjuro I have to step in here and say that Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles are both amazing games. The decline came after 3d Blast, and certainly in 3d form with Sonic Adventure.

 

[Big One]

You are missing the Sega Saturn here.

Sega Saturn had no major Sonic release so I don't think it's relevant to the discussion. 3D Blast and R was still good also if you want to count those as main Sonic games.

 

[RobbieNick]

Series declined at Sonic Adventure.

BZZTT!!! Wrong! It declined at Sonic 3-D Blast (Or Sonic spinball as that was a piece of shit.) Then every Sonic spinoff game on the Saturn and Game Gear. Sonic Adventure was like a breath of fresh air in comparison. It declined again around the time of Sonic Heroes. Of course, I'm just repeating myself now.

 

[Sanjuro]

I don't understand the backlash here. Just because something signifies a moment of decline doesn't always mean it's bad. For instance Batman Returns is the declining point of that series of Batman films. I loved the movie, but it was the beginning of the end for the series. If you want to talk financially then that is a different ballgame.

 

[Big One]

BZZTT!!! Wrong! It declined at Sonic 3-D Blast (Or Sonic spinball as that was a piece of shit.) Then every Sonic spinoff game on the Saturn and Game Gear.

How is Sonic 3D Blast supposed to be the representative of the series as a decline and why is Sonic R bad again? Both are fairly good at what they do and aren't glitchy, lifeless pieces of shit like the Sonic Adventure series. Sonic Adventure and all of the games that use the same engine are barely playable without running into a glitch for Christ's sake. Also all of the Game Gear games are fantastic games except for Labyrinth, Spinball port, and Skypatrol. I mean, what the fuck?

 

[RagnarokX]

I don't understand the backlash here. Just because something signifies a moment of decline doesn't always mean it's bad. For instance Batman Returns is the declining point of that series of Batman films. I loved the movie, but it was the beginning of the end for the series. If you want to talk financially then that is a different ballgame.

It's because you said this:

At least he didn't make it like the franchise killing garbage that is Sonic 3.

They don't understand that by "franchise killing garbage" you meant "last good game in the series." It's an easy mistake to make.

 

[Sanjuro]

It's because you said this:

I've already said I just used that in response to the flogging of Sonic 2.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I never said the game was bad. How about you tell me when the series declined.

I would say the decline started at Sonic Adventure 2. Sonic Adventure 1 gets a pass because it was Sonic's first real foray in to 3D and a degree of experimentation to "figure things out" is to be expected.

Sonic Adventure 2, however, marked the introduction of a lot of bad ideas that went on to pollute the franchise for many years to come. Less creative, certainly. What was normally a selection of unique enemies became a series of generic police robots. Shadow the Hedgehog had "cliche anime doppelganger" written all over him. The story was when Sonic tried to be melodramatic and "mature" in earnest. Game mechanics reheated from the first game actually had features removed in SA2, making it more frustrating and tedious to play. And despite all the complaints of six characters "stealing the spotlight" in the first game, Sonic Team instead decided it would be a better idea to ignore those, even at the expense of characters in SA2 being useless (why is Knuckles in this game? If you follow the storyline he basically doesn't do anything of value until the last minute - he's just there to be there, with his stupid emerald shard hunts).

It was downhill from there. Sonic Heroes was worse than Sonic Adventure 2. Shadow the Hedgehog was worse than Sonic Heroes. Sonic 2006 was worse than every bad Sonic game combined.

There's a tangible, somewhat indescribable "feeling" you get from games sometimes, of a heart and soul. Almost as if you can tell whether or not the developers really cared about the end product. Sonic Adventure 2 was the first time I felt the series lacked that feeling. I didn't get that feeling from Sonic Heroes, or Shadow the Hedgehog, or Sonic 2006, or even the Sonic Advance games. It's hard to pinpoint what exactly makes up this "feeling", and what triggers it does vary from person to person. I did, however, get that feeling from Sonic Unleashed (360/PS3), even though I didn't really expect to.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles may have made a lot of divisive decisions regarding level design and such, but I'd hardly call it a decline. S3&K was the game me and my friends played obsessively all summer - and even though I might be a Sonic fan, they clearly were not.

Edit: For the record, I don't think Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R would count as any signifier of a "decline", because they were spin-offs.

 

[Sanjuro]

As a whole I still will disagree with you. Sega was primarily known as the company that made Sonic games. I can't give them a pass just because there was no A-List Sonic feature on the Saturn and even the 32X add-on. Sega started taking their mascot less seriously and they paid the price. Sonic 3 / Knuckles is my least favorite in the original series but AGAIN I had hours and hours of fun playing the game.


From Sonic Adventure onward, sure. It felt like a tech demo of sort and at the time wasn't a good game but interesting piece to the launch titles on the Dreamcast. Dreamcast is still one of my favorite consoles ever. It signifies a different point in my life. I purchased/pre-ordered everything for that console which I had not done previously at the beginning of any other console's life.

I'm in the same boat in terms of spin-off titles. In the big picture they matter on the resume but you can't isolate one and say this is the point in time when...

 

[gutter_trash]

Sega Saturn had no major Sonic release so I don't think it's relevant to the discussion. 3D Blast and R was still good also if you want to count those as main Sonic games.

the Sega Saturn years count for the decline, for the shear absence of a Sonic... like if the team did not exist anymore and or completely moved onto other things

which is pretty much the motion of the decline

 

[Big One]

the Sega Saturn years count for the decline, for the shear absence of a Sonic... like if the team did not exist anymore and or completely moved onto other things

which is pretty much the motion of the decline

That's an absence...not a decline, those things aren't interchangeable. It just wasn't there to define a decline in the first place. I think the first true start of the decline in quality was Adventure for the fact that it had a ridiculous amount of problems that were never fixed in subsequent releases. Matter of fact the 3D Sonic games get glitchier with each game. That, my friend, is true decline.

And the Saturn still managed to be the best Sega console even without Sonic. Maybe it was better for him to stay out of 3D.

 

[RobbieNick]

I would say the decline started at Sonic Adventure 2. Sonic Adventure 1 gets a pass because it was Sonic's first real foray in to 3D and a degree of experimentation to "figure things out" is to be expected.

Sonic Adventure 2, however, marked the introduction of a lot of bad ideas that went on to pollute the franchise for many years to come. Less creative, certainly. What was normally a selection of unique enemies became a series of generic police robots. Shadow the Hedgehog had "cliche anime doppelganger" written all over him. The story was when Sonic tried to be melodramatic and "mature" in earnest. Game mechanics reheated from the first game actually had features removed in SA2, making it more frustrating and tedious to play. And despite all the complaints of six characters "stealing the spotlight" in the first game, Sonic Team instead decided it would be a better idea to ignore those, even at the expense of characters in SA2 being useless (why is Knuckles in this game? If you follow the storyline he basically doesn't do anything of value until the last minute - he's just there to be there, with his stupid emerald shard hunts).

It was downhill from there. Sonic Heroes was worse than Sonic Adventure 2. Shadow the Hedgehog was worse than Sonic Heroes. Sonic 2006 was worse than every bad Sonic game combined.


There's a tangible, somewhat indescribable "feeling" you get from games sometimes, of a heart and soul. Almost as if you can tell whether or not the developers really cared about the end product. Sonic Adventure 2 was the first time I felt the series lacked that feeling. I didn't get that feeling from Sonic Heroes, or Shadow the Hedgehog, or Sonic 2006, or even the Sonic Advance games. It's hard to pinpoint what exactly makes up this "feeling", and what triggers it does vary from person to person. I did, however, get that feeling from Sonic Unleashed (360/PS3), even though I didn't really expect to.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles may have made a lot of divisive decisions regarding level design and such, but I'd hardly call it a decline. S3&K was the game me and my friends played obsessively all summer - and even though I might be a Sonic fan, they clearly were not.

Edit: For the record, I don't think Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R would count as any signifier of a "decline", because they were spin-offs.

You win!! SA2 as the second decline it is! (I hate Shadow so much.)

And BIg One? I'm sorry, but both 3-D Blast and Sonic R sucked. Take those rosey nostalgic glasses off.

 

[gutter_trash]

absence = nothingness = lack of interest = lack of existane = Sonic game won't happen = Sonic is dead = people have forgotten him

that was pretty much how he was during the Saturn age

 

[Azure Dream]

And despite all the complaints of six characters "stealing the spotlight" in the first game, Sonic Team instead decided it would be a better idea to ignore those, even at the expense of characters in SA2 being useless (why is Knuckles in this game? If you follow the storyline he basically doesn't do anything of value until the last minute - he's just there to be there, with his stupid emerald shard hunts).

Don't rumors go that the game was originally Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman only, the way they initially promoted it, and it was later that they shoehorned in Rouge, Shadow, and Tails playable, Tails being unseen in particular for a long time and suspiciously playing nothing like you'd expect? It's probable fan complaints or executive action forced them to spread out content meant for 3 different characters for 6. Then there's things like the branching path system they talked about at first, then disappeared, only reemerging later with the Shadow game.

It's probable Knuckles played a far more important role initially. Even if he didn't, fans demand him be there because of the Genesis games, even though his design can be pretty game-breaking unless you make a lot of special accommodations for him.

 

[op_ivy]

it is amazing to me that after all these years of sonic failures, there is still such a loyal following, even at an extremely hardcore gaming forum like gaf. nearly 7,000 posts for a game we've only seen glimpses of. can you imagine how successful sega could be if they made games that lived up to the sonic brand again?

/sigh @ sega

 

[Big One]

And BIg One? I'm sorry, but both 3-D Blast and Sonic R sucked. Take those rosey nostalgic glasses off.

I first beat them a year ago, nothing nostalgic about it. Still good games. Hell 3D Blast had the last good level design of the series.

 

[WillyFive]

Sonic 1 was good, got better with Sonic 2, and got a HUGE jump in Sonic 3, the high point of the series.

It skipped over Saturn until Sonic Adventure, which was a drastic drop in build quality, but Sonic Adventure 2 came around and fixed most of what Sonic Adventure did wrong.

But then Sonic Heroes came on and the series nose dived from there on and never stopped.

Also, it's of note that this timeline was separated at the release of Sonic Pocket Adventure, and the handheld games have been continuing of quality.

With Sonic 4, hopefully a bit of that rubs into the main series.

There, that's the view from this end.

it is amazing to me that after all these years of sonic failures, there is still such a loyal following, even at an extremely hardcore gaming forum like gaf. nearly 7,000 posts for a game we've only seen glimpses of. can you imagine how successful sega could be if they made games that lived up to the sonic brand again?

/sigh @ sega

Yeah. Especially considering their fanbase became stronger due to patriotism at the end of the Dreamcast's life, and Sega had to go and disappoint them.

 

[Mr Jared]

It's annoying as a new game comes out, the farther back you guys go to say which game started the decline.

We are already to Sonic 3 for crying out loud!

This is the truth. It wasn't until Sonic the Hedgehog 4 was announced that I ever heard anyone speak ill of Sonic 3, especially going as far as to say its where the series began its legendary nosedive.

I can understand some of the trash talk on Sonic 3, though most of it is superficial. Sonic 3 is where Sega began to go overboard with the "tude" of the series. From snowboarding in Ice Cap Zone, Sonic going Super-Saiyan, the introduction of Knuckles the "bad-ass anti-hero" which ultimately leads us to crap like Shadow the Hedgehog.. all of this I can understand.

But like I said, it's all superficial. It has the best gameplay of the series, the best sprite work by far and while the bosses may be weak, the level designs (especially in Sonic & Knuckles) and subtle storytelling techniques really put it in a league of its own. It took all the gameplay from the first two Sonic titles and fused it together with all these new, unique elements to make for a much more well-rounded experience.

The decline definitely began with Sonic 3-D Blast, which was average at best and set the tone for Sega's acceptance of mediocre and lazy Sonic titles. What came next? Knuckles Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic-Xtreme (mercifully canceled), Sonic Adventure, Sonic SHUFFLE ... 3-D Blast really kicked off that trend as well as my apathy towards the series.

 

[RagnarokX]

This is the truth. It wasn't until Sonic the Hedgehog 4 was announced that I ever heard anyone speak ill of Sonic 3, especially going as far as to say its where the series began its legendary nosedive.

I can understand some of the trash talk on Sonic 3, though most of it is superficial. Sonic 3 is where Sega began to go overboard with the "tude" of the series. From snowboarding in Ice Cap Zone, Sonic going Super-Saiyan, the introduction of Knuckles the "bad-ass anti-hero" which ultimately leads us to crap like Shadow the Hedgehog.. all of this I can understand.

But yeah, all of the Sonic attitude stuff was superficial in the Genesis games. The back of the boxes talked about speed and attitude, but the actual content is what mattered. Sega took the back of the boxes too seriously.

 

[Ten-Song]

This is the truth. It wasn't until Sonic the Hedgehog 4 was announced that I ever heard anyone speak ill of Sonic 3, especially going as far as to say its where the series began its legendary nosedive.

It should be noted that very few people actually think this, and that those people have been properly labeled as crazy.

I can understand some of the trash talk on Sonic 3, though most of it is superficial. Sonic 3 is where Sega began to go overboard with the "tude" of the series. From snowboarding in Ice Cap Zone, Sonic going Super-Saiyan, the introduction of Knuckles the "bad-ass anti-hero" which ultimately leads us to crap like Shadow the Hedgehog.. all of this I can understand.

But like I said, it's all superficial. It has the best gameplay of the series, the best sprite work by far and while the bosses may be weak, the level designs (especially in Sonic & Knuckles) and subtle storytelling techniques really put it in a league of its own. It took all the gameplay from the first two Sonic titles and fused it together with all these new, unique elements to make for a much more well-rounded experience.

Best sprite work? Well, okay, the levels looked really good, but I hated the change in Sonic's sprite. The redrawn sprite for him was horrible. Was never really a fan of Knuckles either, but again it was pretty superficial, and I didn't mind him. He did not create the stigma against new "shitty friends" being included in future iterations.

The decline definitely began with Sonic 3-D Blast, which was average at best and set the tone for Sega's acceptance of mediocre and lazy Sonic titles. What came next? Knuckles Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic-Xtreme (mercifully canceled), Sonic Adventure, Sonic SHUFFLE ... 3-D Blast really kicked off that trend as well as my apathy towards the series.

This I can agree with. I have fond memories of Sonic R, but even when it was first released, I knew it to be a really shitty Mario Kart clone, I never deluded myself into believing it was actually a decent game. But yeah, after Sonic & Knuckles, when shit like Sonic R and Sonic 3D Blast came around, that's when the series started to die. Recent times haven't really started the decline, so much as they work hard to exemplify everything the series should not be, rather than make any attempt to fix things.

I can oddly agree with Willy105, in that the hand helds kind of split from the expectations of the console iterations though. None of them are perfect, or come anywhere close to being as good as the old games, but there was actual quality in some of the games, and they were actually worth playing.

I am highly skeptical that such quality will actually rub off on Sonic 4 though.