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[stan423321]

Oh -_-.

In that case I understand being overly cautious with voice chat. Still, you can find a way less clunkier than their solution, like the usual super simple "you can only voice chat with your friends" or the parental control app.
Wierd Wierd Nintendo.

Swapnote was subject to both of these - well, parental controls weren't an app but just a settings thing, but that's a minor detail. Whether the pressure to consider themselves a part of that affair came from the outside or the inside, these precautions clearly didn't stop it. And frankly, I can see why - around here it's a rarity to see parents set electronics up for kids instead of the other way around. In fact Swapnotegate articles mention kids personally turning the internet connection on. I don't have details, but that paints a nice picture.

They could set it up the way Japanese NN3DS browser lockout works, blocked by default - and even that relies on credit/debit card as age authorization, which would not work at all here in Poland for example, where as a legal kid I legally mail ordered myself a limited debit card from a bank, and some of my friends had similar ones straight authorized by parents.

So they have went with phone being required at all times because, while having a phone does not qualify you as an adult, if you have phone at all times you could just talk through it at all times one way or another (as opposed to a kid setting it up with parent's phone in 10 minutes and then having free reign while being prohibited from owning a phone themself).

 

[blu]

That's actually 1125899906842624 combinations unless I'm mistaken (though a bunch of them useless)

Right, combinations was the wrong word for what I meant -- just plaint inputs to the mixer. But if it was combinations, it would be 10! per output (assuming inputs per output is 10, and duplicate inputs are filtered), so the combinations count for all 5 outputs combined would be 10! * (10! - 1) * .. * (10! - 4) = 629236588187438788822530135091200 ; )

 

[Koren]

Right, combinations was the wrong word for what I meant -- just plaint inputs to the mixer. But if it was combinations, it would be 10! per output (assuming maximum inputs per output is 10, and duplicate inputs are filtered), so the combinations count would be 10! * (10! - 1) * .. * (10! - 4) = 629236588187438788822530135091200 ; )

Any input can be directed to any output...

So "input #i is mixed in output #j" is a binary (true/false) proposition.

There's 10*5 of those, and all are independant. Thus 2^(5*10).

I stand on the 1125899906842624

 

[blu]

Any input can be directed to any output...

So "input #i is mixed in output #j" is a binary (true/false) proposition.

There's 10*5 of those, and all are independant. Thus 2^(5*10).

I stand on the 1125899906842624

Right, my factorials are erroneous - there are only 10 inputs altogether, and the 5 outputs can each source up to 10 of those inputs, so the binary proposition for the combinations count is indeed 2^10 per output, (2^10)^5 altogether. I stand corrected!

 

[Ducktail]

They are pushing their phone shit guys.

Come on, stop being naive.

Yes. Which is a really dumb move in my opinion.

 

[snap]

What's wrong with it?

it's just not particularly high quality, and i've personally encountered noise when i have it plugged in and using headphones, meaning that it's not properly shielded.

I cannot comment about any DACs, but TX1 has a fairly dedicated mixer:


And by 'channel' they mean up to 24bit, 192KHz channels. So TX1's mixer can process up to input 10 streams, by 5 outputs at a time = 50 combinations to mix. I cannot imagine a situation where voice chat in something like splatoon would pose much of an issue for the hw.

nintendo doesn't surface fine grain controls for any of that, though.

 

[blu]

nintendo doesn't surface fine grain controls for any of that, though.

If you're referring to APIs, you wouldn't really need fine-grain control - actually the less there's to control, the better. My ideal scenario would be something along 'Here're the available codecs - chose rate and throughput, the chat API can add up to 8 (peer) inputs of those codecs on top of your in-game mixing. Enjoy'.

If you're referring to user control - what would you want to expose to the user, in the first place?

 

[snap]

If you're referring to APIs, you wouldn't really need fine-grain control - actually the less there's to control, the better. My ideal scenario would be something along 'Here're the available codecs - chose rate and throughput, the chat API can add up to 8 (peer) inputs of those codecs on top of your in-game mixing. Enjoy'.

If you're referring to user control - what would you want to expose to the user, in the first place?

allowing the user to control the volume for each stream as they get mixed together (this is the bare minimum, afaik ninty doesn't even do this)

allow additional streams such as external music to be mixed in, as some pros actually use earbuds within their gamer headsets to provide a similar effect (other platforms allow this to some degree by having music apps that can run in the background behind the games)

control the sound curve (software processing to shape the audio curve of the sound) to tailor the sound per source

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

So when are they patching it out?

 

[Cynar]

I'm sure this is to accommodate tournament play (which is what LAN mode was created for). You need a reliable voice chat system for these events, and WiFi/cellular coverage can be pretty hit or miss at any large gathering of people, so a simple local voice chat system makes a lot more sense.

I'm also pretty surprised that so many people are amazed that Nintendo have implemented this. As far as I'm aware they've never claimed any technical difficulty in providing voice chat directly on Switch, they just think that doing it through your smartphone is better for some bizarre reason.

Wireless LAN is WiFi. Just connected to a local router only.

 

[blu]

allowing the user to control the volume for each stream as they get mixed together (this is the bare minimum, afaik ninty doesn't even do this)

I can definitely see the usefulness of this when players' headsets are largely different/mic sensitivity varying, but isn't it much easier to actually provide the same headsets to players rather than tweak the mixer for every combination of players' equipment? But surely it's not a technical problem for the switch hw to adhere to custom mixing setups, and for the sw to expose a per-channel volume controller to every player. Whether nintendo would bother with that for splatoon.. /shrug

allow additional streams such as external music to be mixed in, as some pros actually use earbuds within their gamer headsets to provide a similar effect (other platforms allow this to some degree by having music apps that can run in the background behind the games)

Isn't that just a nicety, but by no means a hard requirement/deal breaker? I mean, if people revert to earbuds?

control the sound curve (software processing to shape the audio curve of the sound) to tailor the sound per source

What's the end goal here? - Better audibility of the chat?

 

[snap]

I can definitely see the usefulness of this when players' headsets are largely different/mic sensitivity varying, but isn't it much easier to actually provide the same headsets to players rather than tweak the mixer for every combination of players' equipment? But surely it's not a technical problem for the switch hw to adhere to custom mixing setups, and for the sw to expose a per-channel volume controller to every player. Whether nintendo would bother with that for splatoon.. /shrug


Isn't that just a nicety, but by no means a hard requirement/deal breaker? I mean, if people revert to earbuds?


What's the end goal here? - Better audibility of the chat?

i don't understand what you're trying to say to justify the lack of that option. there are more factors than just adjusting how hot a mic is, it's also how much of the game audio the player wants to hear over the chat or vice versa, a value that differs from person to person, and from headset to headset. expecting everybody to buy one headset and then normalizing the values off of that one headset (while also ignoring personal preference on how one wants the audio to get mixed) is hilarious and just as bad as nintendo's current solution, if not worse.

by using that logic being able to voice chat at all is a "nicety." why does nintendo get special treatment and is allowed to skip out on something that's become commonplace on every other platform?

software shaping of the audio allows audio to come across more balanced on certain headsets, and it will also allow you to emphasize certain parts of the audio, like voices or the lower-end thuds of footsteps behind you.

 

[Trup1aya]

What's wrong if a game can provide all the team chat functionality without external equipment? And why would it aim for the highest quality - I'm sure the quality of the switch built-in hw codecs is more than enough.

There's nothing wrong with providing the functionality

Im just saying i wouldnt assume the feature is included FOR esports play - because esports typically uses a different solution - even on platforms with internal comms systems.

I think this would be most useful at the social level- like schoolmates playing splatoon in a dorm

Why the highest quality for competitive? I assume its because players and teams tend to want have total control over the quality of their comms - since it can directly impact their performance. They don't want to be limited by what the developer decided is good sound mixing.

 

[Mael]

Ok this is hilariously Nintendo.
As for the Voice chat being too much for the Switch?
Come on guys, we had voice chat on Nintendo DS!
Nintendo DS had a grand total of 4MB of RAM!

 

[blu]

i don't understand what you're trying to say to justify the lack of that option. there are more factors than just adjusting how hot a mic is, it's also how much of the game audio the player wants to hear over the chat or vice versa, a value that differs from person to person, and from headset to headset. expecting everybody to buy one headset and then normalizing the values off of that one headset (while also ignoring personal preference on how one wants the audio to get mixed) is hilarious and just as bad as nintendo's current solution, if not worse.

I said 'provide the same headset', as in organizers provide it, I didn't say anything about people buying the same headsets. Clearly having one headset to normalize chat mixing to is an easier task than doing it for n different headsets.

by using that logic being able to voice chat at all is a "nicety." why does nintendo get special treatment and is allowed to skip out on something that's become commonplace on every other platform?

You're getting carried away. This is not a 'this fucking company' conversation, we're discussing what's wrong with nintendo's current LAN solution, and so far you're coming up with 'but people want background music' to the table, which is rather secondary.

software shaping of the audio allows audio to come across more balanced on certain headsets, and it will also allow you to emphasize certain parts of the audio, like voices or the lower-end thuds of footsteps behind you.

'On certain headsets' is taking us back to 'let's normalize the headsets fist', no?

There's nothing wrong with providing the functionality

Im just saying i wouldnt assume the feature is included FOR esports play - because esports typically uses a different solution - even on platforms with internal comms systems.

I think this would be most useful at the social level- like schoolmates playing splatoon in a dorm

Why the highest quality for competitive? I assume its because players and teams tend to want have total control over the quality of their comms - since it can directly impact their performance. They don't want to be limited by what the developer decided is good sound mixing.

Ok, I misunderstood you then. I too think that some players will want to bypass the out-of-the-box solution, but if it is a good enough mid-tier solution, that's a step in the right direction.

 

[snap]

You're getting carried away. This is not a 'this fucking company' conversation, we're discussing what's wrong with nintendo's current LAN solution, and so far you're coming up with 'but people want background music' to the table, which is rather secondary.

if we were actually discussion that you wouldn't be creating bullshit workarounds for the lack of being able to even control the volume of both the chat and the game audio independently. no other chat solution on earth has that problem, only this switch solution. that alone should disqualify it, yet you keep creating specific scenarios where it's not a problem. why should organizers buy dozens of expensive headsets just for people to share? can you imagine how much more work that'd be to keep them sanitary and keep track of them? how much more expensive it would be for the organizers? not to mention some players would vastly prefer to bring the headset their used to, the ones they know aren't uncomfortable on their head, or ones they've gotten used to the sound profile for?

again, every other solution, on every other platform, surfaces these controls. it's not like a niche, barely used thing. it'd be jarring if sony or microsoft didn't give you these controls, why does nintendo get a pass with weird complicated solutions for their half-assed system?

 

[blu]

if we were actually discussion that you wouldn't be creating bullshit workarounds for the lack of being able to even control the volume of both the chat and the game audio independently.

And yet you came up with 'but backgorund music' first. Go figure. And I'm 'creating bullshit workarounds' for a very apparent problem that your 'if you can't control sound levels for every combination of headsets across all participants in an event your solution does not count' problem.

no other chat solution on earth has that problem, only this switch solution. that alone should disqualify it, yet you keep creating specific scenarios where it's not a problem. why should organizers buy dozens of expensive headsets just for people to share?

So they would not have to buy expensive mixers and spend many hours in setting those up before each event, with a plethora of unique headsets, time and again? I thought I made myself perfectly clear, no?

can you imagine how much more work that'd be to keep them sanitary and keep track of them?

Yes, in a universe where headphone protective covers were not a couple of dimes a kilo -- perhaps I could. As for keeping track - can you imagine how public wardrobes at theatres and public halls work -- it's pure madness! ... No wait, it's a solved problem from centuries ago -- it's called tokens. I'm sure there might be insurmountable problems to organizers providing standard headsets, but those aren't those you came up with..

how much more expensive it would be for the organizers?

An out-of-the-box chat solution in combination with re-usable headsets would be much more expensive to a mixing station requiring qualified attention for every new player, at every new event?

not to mention some players would vastly prefer to bring the headset their used to, the ones they know aren't uncomfortable on their head, or ones they've gotten used to the sound profile for?

Or the ones their granma presented to them on their 11th birthday, etc, etc. There's a simple reason most sports strive for standartization across the employed technology. For the rest of the 'pros' who insist on bringing their own headsets - they can as well bring their own portable equalizers and spend the time needed to set those before event's start.

again, every other solution, on every other platform, surfaces these controls. it's not like a niche, barely used thing. it'd be jarring if sony or microsoft didn't give you these controls, why does nintendo get a pass with weird complicated solutions for their half-assed system?

Wait, how do you know there's not a simple volume control to voice chat? OP did not say anything if there was or there wasn't any.