GamesAreFun
Banned
Microsoft will stop selling Windows & Office in France, because of digital games?
But those things actually make them money, unlike the Xbox!
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Steam forced to authorize the sale of second-hand games in France
But those things actually make them money, unlike the Xbox!DeliciousDoc
Member
This will probably end up like the card marketplace with valve double dipping on its cut.
Hopefully this move will eventually end region locking as well as it impedes the free flow of goods between customers.
Hopefully this move will eventually end region locking as well as it impedes the free flow of goods between customers.
bryo4321
Member
I see it being possible, I just can’t see any situation where this wouldn’t hurt the bottom line, why would you ever directly buy a game from the valve store versus just using their marketplace for a cheaper “used” license? Why would a company (game publisher) ever be willing to allow that? Literally the only way I see this being a thing is if lawmakers force it into law across huge markets like EU wide for example.
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Zog
Banned
What degradation do modern used physical games have?
Sentenza
Member
The issue is not how do you implement the feature in the client. It's how you allow "digital resales" without the market collapsing entirely on itself in the following months. There's no such thing as a "used" digital copy. A "digital copy" of a software, no matter how much you "use it" doesn't degrade in quality over time. They would be virtually indistinguishable from the originals and far more aggressive in pricing.
Best case scenario that would come out of something like this is even the very few games "as single purchase" remaining these days attempting to turn themselves into "live services" to circumvent/devalue the the appeal of a "used" copy.
I'm generally all for "pro-consumer" choices no matter how hard they fuck a corporate entity, but I can see this sort of ham-fisted solution backfire spectacularly.
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Why pay Google $60 to Stream Assassin's Creed when I could sell you a stream for $15?
Katsura
Member
I'm sure Google will lawyer their way out of that since you're practically just renting your games on their service
In the spirit of this ruling they'd probably lose that argument. I paid $60 and I can sell it.
cryptoadam
Banned
Why would I sell my used digital copy that is 100% the same as a new digital copy for less than full price? Outside of wanting to undercut Valve there is no loss of value.
With Gamestop the game was open, maybe manual was missing, disc could of been a little scartched etc...
My digital copy of BF V 1 year later is exactly the same as it was on day 1.
Outside of that well I don't really care about some giant corp. Devs/indies I care a bit but if its digital why not give them a cut? Valve could regulate it and take a cut of every "used" game sold.
With Gamestop the game was open, maybe manual was missing, disc could of been a little scartched etc...
My digital copy of BF V 1 year later is exactly the same as it was on day 1.
Outside of that well I don't really care about some giant corp. Devs/indies I care a bit but if its digital why not give them a cut? Valve could regulate it and take a cut of every "used" game sold.
Zog
Banned
I don't follow. Here's what happens. You go into a used game shop and you pick up a used PS4 game. It has the case and the game, it never had a manual or maps or anything extra so you have everything a new buyer has. Now you take the game home and you install it to your PS4, download all the updates and your used copy is exactly the same as a new copy.
There is no degradation.
If your disc is scratched you will know it right away as you won't be able to install it and you can return it for another copy.
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Zog
Banned
You know how to solve that.
Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
Because there would be a limited supply of used games, and if you want the game day 1, you'll have to shell out. Also, they could apply some sort of bidding to each game, keeping the prices up and adding to the share that goes to devs/publishers/stores (if applied).
Zog
Banned
Do you think devs and publishers should get a share when you resale a physical game?
Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
In the end it's up to each owner to decide how much they want to lose on each sale. But again, I have no idea how this would affect the market in the long run.
Zog
Banned
Same with digital, yeah?
Sentenza
Member
And they are limitedly available both in quantity and distribution.
A "used" digital copy would be available in the same exact place where the original is sold and, past the very first hours of sale, just as easy to find and get.
It means that long tail sales will implicitly and unavoidably become a thing of the past. If you are a developer releasing a game on a digital store, you better be ready to the idea of selling just in the first DAYS at best, first hours at worst (if it's a game that doesn't keep a very high percentage of users attached).
The disc itself degrades over time. Google "disc rot" to get the gist of it. On a time span of ten, fifteen, twenty years an optic disc becomes an extremely unreliable support to rely on. Conversely, my NOW-16-years-old games on Steam will still work like the first day ten or fifteen more years from now.
Oh right, and that's that risk as well. A disc can scratch, break, etc. And replacement will not always be possible.
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Zog
Banned
So are used digital games.
Same with physical.
How is this not true for physical copies too?
This is an argument against physical discs in general, not used copies. Funny thing though, I am sure my PS1 and PS2 discs will outlast most digital shops.
As I said, modern games must be installed (except Switch and the cart will either work or not) and you will know right away if it needs to be replaced within the given time period (usually 7 days).
zeorhymer
Member
Zog
I know what you're trying to do. The actual data on those discs do not degrade, but the medium that they are stored on do. I should be able to re-sell my ebook too! But you can't. Well my physical book will last at least 50+ years and can still read the contents. People don't re-sell the data, but the medium that it's stored on. If there is no media, there's nothing to sell.
Zog
Banned
When you buy a physical game, are you paying $60 just for the disc or for the disc plus the content. When you resale a game, do game shops give you a flat rate for every game because they are only putting a price on the disc itself? When the game shop sells a used game, are they only selling the disc itself and therefore all games are the same price?
No, please don't pretend that a game disc has any value without the data on it.
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Zog
Banned
You are buying a game on a disc and when you resell it, you are selling a game on a disc.
Fbh
Member
I'm not sure I like where this might go.
I've always been a big supporter of digital purchases being more than just glorified renting, which is why if any given PC game is available on GOG that's always going to be my platform of choice.
With that said, if this actually goes through Europe wide I doubt all of these multi billion dollar companies are just going to take the L and go with it, I wouldn't be surprised if we see an even higher push towards microtransactions and GaaS, moving even further away from actual game sales being the main source of income and making it all about "sustained user spending". Not to mention doubling down on subscription services where you don't own shit and it's all tied to you paying monthly, or any other form of legally backed distribution where the user has even less ownership over the stuff they pay for.
Kinda reminds me of when everyone in my country was complaining to health insurance companies about women having to pay more. When they became unable to do so everyone was like "ha, take that you evil bog companies". Their solution? They just increased prices for men
You know which modern gaming platform doesn't give a shit about this because it's almost entirely designed for everyone to have access to everything ,with games designed to be a platform to generate money from as opposed to the product itself? Mobile
I've always been a big supporter of digital purchases being more than just glorified renting, which is why if any given PC game is available on GOG that's always going to be my platform of choice.
With that said, if this actually goes through Europe wide I doubt all of these multi billion dollar companies are just going to take the L and go with it, I wouldn't be surprised if we see an even higher push towards microtransactions and GaaS, moving even further away from actual game sales being the main source of income and making it all about "sustained user spending". Not to mention doubling down on subscription services where you don't own shit and it's all tied to you paying monthly, or any other form of legally backed distribution where the user has even less ownership over the stuff they pay for.
Kinda reminds me of when everyone in my country was complaining to health insurance companies about women having to pay more. When they became unable to do so everyone was like "ha, take that you evil bog companies". Their solution? They just increased prices for men
You know which modern gaming platform doesn't give a shit about this because it's almost entirely designed for everyone to have access to everything ,with games designed to be a platform to generate money from as opposed to the product itself? Mobile
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Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
Some differences apply. Reading this thread, there are worries that the market won't survive. So why not add an incentive? Just throwing it out there. Also, as already stated, smalltime indie devs that heavily, or only, rely on digital sales will get a cut from this.
And again, for the billionth time. I have no idea how this would affect the market. I'm just thinking about our rights as consumers. If you can resell one game, why not the other? (I know it's complicated)
Sentenza
Member
The "INCENTIVE" is exactly what some of us are concerned about. Try to imagine in your head what sort of "incentives" devs and publishers can come up with to devalue the trading of "used digital".
Also, back to the core of the topic, I'm wondering how the rest of the industry is reacting to this court ruling. I'm going to guess most of them must be in full PANIC mode, even competitors of Valve that should allegedly gloat over them taking this L.
P.S. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why Valve is being singled out in the first place. This will most likely affect dozens, if not hundreds, of digital stores. Not just videogames either. I guess iTunes will need to allow user resell their music, Youtube will have to allow users to resell their license for movies and shit, etc, etc.
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Nightrunner
Member
Talking more about the value of the package as a whole including box art, cases, redeemed season pass/dlc codes that all end up devaluing a used copy. You get people demanding more for games in "good" condition. Then you get the odd disc that is unusable thanks to the owner having treated it like trash-very rare with BDs but where I live (Pakistan) it is not uncommon to get used games that don't work at all simply because of how poorly their owners took care of em)
Z..
Member
There's over 340 million people in the Eurozone alone, though (over 500 in the EU)... if this ends up spreading throughout the region as so many laws enacted in France tend to do you'd have to be kidding yourself to think publishers would just kiss such a profitable region goodbye, half of the top 10 gaming revenue countries are in the EU.
Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
Why don't you explain what would happen? Because I'm not sure.
Mobile would be affected. I download Money Drain Quest 5 for free. I pay for $200 worth of Pavlovian stimuli. I should be able to resell these used microtransactions to another MDQ5 sucker, because it's a used digital good. And I'll sell it for $20.
Even this mobile trash stops making money.
The Cartographer
Member
Used...digital?
Makes absolutely no sense to me.
Makes absolutely no sense to me.
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Scope, and struggle. Right now if I wanted to sell one of my physical PS4 games, I have a couple of options. I could lug it over to a used game store and maybe make a couple of bucks off of it (in credit), or I could put it up on eBay and sell it in a national (or potentially) worldwide marketplace. I suppose I could list it up on Craigslist or maybe advertise at my work to see if anyone was looking for a used copy. All of these things take time, effort, and potentially a certain amount of trust with your trading partner. The point is, you the consumer have to do all of the legwork to turn your piece of plastic you bought back into money. Your scope is limited to local transactions unless you're willing to pay a company like eBay, Paypal, UPS, etc a cut of your transaction to reach a wider audience. If I want to sell more than one game, the struggle aspect usually increases, sometimes exponentially.
Now enters digital game sales on Steam or other platforms. The mechanisms for making the transfer of ownership happen are incumbent on Valve (or any other digital storefront owner) to provide to you by law now. If you want to sell a game, you just click a button and immediately have access to a huge network of people worldwide who may want to buy your digital game from you. You press a button, and the storefront takes care of the rest - the license is automatically transferred to the buyer and you the seller automatically gets funds deposited in your account (does anyone really think that "Credit" is going to fly for the purposes of this law?). I guess they could make this process as difficult as possible, like maybe if you want to sell a digital game you have to print off a piece of paper and physically mail it to someone so that they can scan it in manually using their Valve brand desktop scanner?
The point is, the physical second-hand market has been able to thrive in the digital age because of the above factors of scope and struggle. Having instant, easy access to replace those aspects digitally means people could buy a used digital copy every time they wanted to play a game, then sell it when they're done with that play session 25 minutes later. Then rinse and repeat every time they play the game, losing maybe only pennies at a time. Now imagine doing this with a PS4 disc and hiking over to gamestop several times every weekend to sell / rebuy the game you want to play and tell me there's no difference.
The region is profitable now because they're able to sell their products there. Implementing this would not only significantly reduce their profits but would also be detrimental to their business interests worldwide. There is no profit in operating at a loss (as well as the potential for that loss to spread elsewhere if you give in to demands). You think I'm kidding, but I would put good money on a bet that if it came down to brass tax and Valve or other digital publishers were told "let users 'own' their digital goods and sell them secondhand" would be the day those companies would close up shop in those areas. They would probably, eventually, reopen if and when they had a solution that met with the scope of the law, like
Sentenza
is saying some sort of GaaS model or one-time-only account-bound in-game purchase.
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Sentenza
Member
I... actually already did?
Sales collapsing quickly will be the first, immediate step. Publishers and developers stepping away from any form of digital distribution (starting with Steam now and then backing off of any digital market as the ruling will inevitably extend to other services) could be another mid-term consequence and then more and more trying to embrace the "game as a service" format that will make the "basic purchase" basically worthless by itself, and devoid of any resell value.
Oh, also a lot more "free"-to-pay stuff, I guess.
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Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
Sorry, I don't read all the posts in a thread. However, this sounds like speculations only. Or do you have sources/hard data that prove your point?
Z..
Member
This is a hard one to predict, quite frankly. I suppose we'll know soon enough, it'll take years before anywhere besides France implements such measures whereas Valve won't take that long to respond to this so it'll all become clear before long. I do think you're overselling the doom this would represent for the industry, though... a drop in profitability isn't the same as a region suddenly becoming profitless, even if this does succesfully go through I'd be very surprised if it has that significant an impact on profits to justify abandoning the region altogether, it'll always be worth the hassle, imo.
Sentenza
Member
No, I'm sorry, I "don't have the data" because there's absolutely no precedent to this sort of idiotic bullshit.
We are going toward uncharted waters of self-harming fuckery here. Be ready to say goodbye to your single purchase packed with value and without heavy external monetisation attached.
They were already going the way of the dodo, anyway.
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Zog
Banned
If you give devs a cut of digital used sales, that will bleed over into the physical used market and it won’t stop with games.
Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
Then I guess we're done here!
Kadayi
Banned
You understand that they'd be subject to the same ruling as Valve right? Essentially this would set a crazy precedent that would impact any form of account-based digital purchase. Apple, Microsoft, etc would all be impacted by this. It's envisaging that your licence is a limited resource, when that's not the case at all.
Games, music, films, TV shows, software
Do you think Amazons going to allow me to sell my read Kindle books? Or Apples going to let me sell my bought songs? Never going to happen. This shit will get revoked at appeal purely on the basis of dumbfuckery.
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