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[Gully State]

Wrong.

Well, I hope, as I just bought Dirt 2 on GFW and want to play vs my steam friends.

I'm pretty sure you can on GTA IV as well; Steam and GFW folks together.

He was talking about integrated friend lists but you're right in that he's still wrong..

 

[itxaka]

why are people complaining about gamespy?

I just got borderlands recently, and I only played online a couple of times but the thing made a good job of getting me with all different classes and guys on the same level as me with 0 lag.

Not getting why you guys hate it so much, care to share?

 

[Fredescu]

EA is on board with all their hardcore (Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, Battlefield BC2, Medal of Honor) and crossover games (SimCity, Spore). They didn't put Sims 3 on Steam because they probably figure the market for Sims 3 doesn't know what they're missing.

Then why do they have FIFA Manager but no mainline FIFA? There is no rhyme or reason to what EA do or don't put on Steam.

 

[Zzoram]

Tripwire literally would not exist if not for Valve and Steam and their games compete with Valve's titles more directly than anyone's. Yet they've got two successful published games under their belt (that continue to sell, KF is back in the top sellers list right now infact) and at least another couple on their way and all of their marketing efforts have come through Steam. Its a mutually beneficial relationship.

Yep. No sane person can say that Steamworks is bad for developers/publishers. It's also what most customers have made clear they desire. Gearbox's perpetual non-sensical hate on Valve seems really petty.

 

[Zzoram]

He was talking about integrated friend lists but you're right in that he's still wrong..

No he wasn't. He never said anything about friends lists, and the wording was pretty clear that he meant playing between versions. He just changed his "meaning" once people pointing out he was completely wrong then brought up an alternative idea that would somewhat fit with what he was quoted saying. However, even the friend's list thing wouldn't prevent people from playing if they bought store or Steam copies, they would just have to add each other to a new friend's list.

The real irony of the situation is that Gearbox made the situation even more annoying by using Gamespy instead of Steamworks or GFW LIVE.

 

[Gully State]

No he wasn't. He never said anything about friends lists, and the wording was pretty clear that he meant playing between versions. He just changed his "meaning" once people pointing out he was completely wrong then brought up an alternative idea that would somewhat fit (instead of not being able to play, they would have to... gasp... add each other to a new friend's list) with what he was quoted saying.

you're right he was rambling about an open standard...

 

[Mr Sandman]

He was talking about integrated friend lists but you're right in that he's still wrong..

Oh...it's still pretty easy to just add their gamertag and join that way. They should still fix it though.

why are people complaining about gamespy?

I just got borderlands recently, and I only played online a couple of times but the thing made a good job of getting me with all different classes and guys on the same level as me with 0 lag.

Not getting why you guys hate it so much, care to share?

It sucked at launch. Joining friends didn't work 85% the time and you had to mess with port forwarding and shit. However I guess they patched it because I have no problem hosting/joining now. Works great now.

 

[itxaka]

Then why do they have FIFA Manager but no mainline FIFA? There is no rhyme or reason to what EA do or don't put on Steam.

Big hitters only on their own download service?

Sims = Millions
Fifa = Millions

Spore = millions (lol)

 

[Zzoram]

you're right he was rambling about an open standard...

That is a fantasy that can't exist and doesn't even make sense. Someone would have to create, update, and maintain the open standard friend's list, but that's impossible if someone doesn't control it, which would make it a closed standard.

Steamworks is as open standard as is practically possible. Valve provides free tools to integrate games with online features and doesn't interfere by requiring validation of patches. Microsoft is more closed because they require patch validation.

 

[Fredescu]

Big hitters only on their own download service?

FIFA 11 is on Gamersgate, D2D, and Impulse. It's just not on Steam.

 

[Zzoram]

Oh...it's still pretty easy to just add their gamertag and join that way. They should still fix it though.

There is nothing to fix. You have to add people to a friend's list at SOME point, one won't magically appear with all your current and future friends, and somebody has to create and maintain the integrated friends list. It is literally impossible for an integrated friends list to exist without somebody controlling the platform. Steamworks is better than GFW LIVE for both developers and customers so it IS the single standard that everyone has been looking for, and it's better than what the consoles offer.

 

[HK-47]

Tripwire literally would not exist if not for Valve and Steam and their games compete with Valve's titles more directly than anyone's. Yet they've got two successful published games under their belt (that continue to sell, KF is back in the top sellers list right now infact) and at least another couple on their way and all of their marketing efforts have come through Steam. Its a mutually beneficial relationship.

Tripwire follows the TF2/L4D free content model too...and its awesome.

 

[itxaka]

FIFA 11 is on Gamersgate, D2D, and Impulse. It's just not on Steam.

Really? I think I know where I'm buying it from...I was waiting as I hate the EA downloader.

It sucked at launch. Joining friends didn't work 85% the time and you had to mess with port forwarding and shit. However I guess they patched it because I have no problem hosting/joining now. Works great now.

Ahh that makes sense becasue I didn't have any problems with it. Of course I'm not an online heavy player.

 

[crimsonheadGCN]

Gibson on Shacknews:

going through the thread in regards to that bit of a conversation i had in london i figure i'll just make my hope perfectly clear.

in an ideal world all of the digital distributors and retail solutions be it steam, d2d, gfwl, gamespy, etc. would be using an open unified match making standard for online multiplayer. i wont hold my breath that it would happen, but it's a hope.

the quote is missing the word "sometimes" in regards to a retail guy sometimes not being able to play with one of the other 2 major online choices.

i use steam and have loved it and written about it for years. it is by far my personal favorite among the online choices.

in regards to borderlands pc efforts if you insist on more about that, look here:
http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=23964703

in regards to duke forever being available online and match making etc, we have not made any announcements yet. i imagine you guys will be happy though.

i think that about covers it.

http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=24220125#itemanchor_24220125

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Gibson on Shacknews:



http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=24220125#itemanchor_24220125

apologies for that worthless interview today btw. honestly i didnt think it was even worth publishing.

may as well apologize for borderlands PC UI stuff as well since that seems to come up once in a while. it was certainly blocked off to have a significant amount of time dedicated to the PC UI and i was only at gearbox for a few months at the time. i didnt know any better about how unpredictable things really are.

i'm a learnin'

.

 

[ArjanN]

Except GFWL made the game so cumbersome to play update that Relic wants to get rid of GFWL from all its future titles.

fixed.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

It's nice to want things

Bettenhausen !

 

[TheSeks]

joke post?

Joke reply? Boredlands is fucking terrible. No amount of vagina monsters as a last boss that doesn't do anything just like the cannon fodder enemies before it saves it.

And Gamespy even on the console versions (PS3, anyway) was fucking terrible.

Apparently Valve listened.

*whoosh* at the reason Valve went PS3.

Spoiler

Even if you are being sarcastic.

Gearbox has no influence on anything, as it should be.

 

[dyergram]

If he bought it for PC online, it's not a joke. Gamespy is awful and my friends were finding it impossbile to play together. They should've used Steamworks, at least then their game would've worked.

Yep I could never get co op to work on it either and single player wasnt the best.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Randy Pitchford's beef with Valve is basically this:

1) Valve is going to release, let's say, Half-Left 4 Dead: Portal to the Team Fortress Strike, in 2010.

2) Gearbox is going to release Borderlands 2: Even More Boring, six months before that. Since it has a PC port, Take Two has decided to put Even More Boring on Steam.

3) So EMB sells gangbusters on Steam, netting a good profit for Take Two, and Valve takes a cut.

4) Pitchford argues that the money from Borderlands 2 is going to go in to the development or marketing budgets for their next ultra-game six months down the line. So when Gearbox releases Borderlands 2 DLC, probably about chimps flinging shit at each other, around the same time Valve is releasing their game, Valve gets a leg up off Pitchford's work with Borderlands 2.

hey someone hates borderlands as much as I do

 

[Discotheque]

Randy Pitchford's beef with Valve is basically this:

1) Valve is going to release, let's say, Half-Left 4 Dead: Portal to the Team Fortress Strike, in 2010.

2) Gearbox is going to release Borderlands 2: Even More Boring, six months before that. Since it has a PC port, Take Two has decided to put Even More Boring on Steam.

3) So EMB sells gangbusters on Steam, netting a good profit for Take Two, and Valve takes a cut.

4) Pitchford argues that the money from Borderlands 2 is going to go in to the development or marketing budgets for their next ultra-game six months down the line. So when Gearbox releases Borderlands 2 DLC, probably about chimps flinging shit at each other, around the same time Valve is releasing their game, Valve gets a leg up off Pitchford's work with Borderlands 2.

HAHAHA I loved this post. Spot on.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Randy Pitchford's beef with Valve is basically this:

1) Valve is going to release, let's say, Half-Left 4 Dead: Portal to the Team Fortress Strike, in 2010.

2) Gearbox is going to release Borderlands 2: Even More Boring, six months before that. Since it has a PC port, Take Two has decided to put Even More Boring on Steam.

3) So EMB sells gangbusters on Steam, netting a good profit for Take Two, and Valve takes a cut.

4) Pitchford argues that the money from Borderlands 2 is going to go in to the development or marketing budgets for their next ultra-game six months down the line. So when Gearbox releases Borderlands 2 DLC, probably about chimps flinging shit at each other, around the same time Valve is releasing their game, Valve gets a leg up off Pitchford's work with Borderlands 2.

Which is stupid because when that game sells at retail instead of Steam, then the retailers get a cut. And they're going to use those profits to print their Sunday ads. And when HL4DTFS launches in 2010, the retailers are going to advertise the hell out of it in those Sunday ads. And us peons will be so blinded by its majesty, that's the game we're going to buy at the expense of B2.

 

[Scott Kevill]

Of course, it was GameRanger that made Borderlands multiplayer work for the first six or so months of broken GameSpy.

 

[Wiktor]

You can add Mafia II to your list. I don't really notice it outside the menus in first person games, but third person games like Mafia II and Dead Space, yikes. Controller time.

Ughh....playing Mafia II on a pad...

 

[Wiktor]

while i appreciate the effort from some developers to keep the libertarian banner of pc gaming flying high, i can barely think of a rational reason why anyone (who doesn't already have in a dog in the fight) publishing a pc game with any clout wouldn't just implement steamworks on a whim..

I think it makes sense for niche companies with small, but dedicated fanbases. It makes the whole community stronger and givs them a more special place to gather around. Hence why Stardock has Impulse and Paradox announced Paradox Connect (despite their games being sold through other DD services)

 

[Jive Turkey]

Also, they refuse to acknowledge OpFor and Adrian Shepard in the main HL games because OpFor had a bunch of noncanonical aliens in it.

I only seem to remember the final boss being new. What other aliens did OF add?

Well duh, its not. Also they totally reused OF's final boss in Borderlands. Was lame both times.

I liked both of those bosses.

 

[Stallion Free]

I only seem to remember the final boss being new. What other aliens did OF add?

Race X:
-Gene Worm
-Pit Drone
-Pit Worm
-Shock Trooper
-Shock Roach
-Voltigore

 

[Stumpokapow]

Just a little bit of data for the "Games for Windows Live is dead" argument.

Upcoming games for GFWL:
Lost Planet 2 (Capcom)
Australian Rules Football (Big Ant Studios, independently published)
CarneyVale: Showtime (Microsoft, port of an Xbox Indies game, 200G)
Fable III (Microsoft)
Flowerz (Microsoft, port of an MSN Games game, 200G)
Age of Empires Online (Microsoft)
Colin McRae: Dirt 3 (Codemasters)
Mechwarrior (Microsoft--of course the game hasn't been detailed since it was revealed a year and a half ago, so it's quite possible that if Microsoft is not publishing the game, it won't have GFWL)
Microsoft Flight (Microsoft)
Operation Flashpoint: Red River (Codemasters)

In 2011, the only games using GFWL as of right now will be Codemasters and Microsoft games.

 

[Stallion Free]

I'm gonna laugh when Duke Nukem is full blown Steamworks. And then I'm going to buy it.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Just a little bit of data for the "Games for Windows Live is dead" argument.

Upcoming games for GFWL:
Lost Planet 2 (Capcom)
Australian Rules Football (Big Ant Studios, independently published)
CarneyVale: Showtime (Microsoft, port of an Xbox Indies game, 200G)
Fable III (Microsoft)
Flowerz (Microsoft, port of an MSN Games game, 200G)
Age of Empires Online (Microsoft)
Colin McRae: Dirt 3 (Codemasters)
Mechwarrior (Microsoft--of course the game hasn't been detailed since it was revealed a year and a half ago, so it's quite possible that if Microsoft is not publishing the game, it won't have GFWL)
Microsoft Flight (Microsoft)
Operation Flashpoint: Red River (Codemasters)

In 2011, the only games using GFWL as of right now will be Codemasters and Microsoft games.

And I really wish Codemasters would be the one to ditch them. I suppose it makes 360/PC co-development easier, but I wish they'd just bite the bullet and make the switch.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I wonder how long it will be until PC vendors start pre-installing Steam onto video card containing PCs and stores start selling Steam gift cards.

Actually, Alienware computers now come pre-installed with Steam.

Race X:
-Gene Worm
-Pit Drone
-Pit Worm
-Shock Trooper
-Shock Roach
-Voltigore

The Pit Worker/Drone seem an awful lot like Antlions from HL2:EP2.

I wish Valve would just get rid of the whole "Race X" thing and make all of those native Xen creatures, no different from Headcrabs or Vorts.

Speaking of which, what happened to Xen :/
We haven't seen is since HL, and now it's kind of not even mentioned at all. Xen was one of the coolest parts of HL, and it seems kind of abondoned now.

 

[Akia]

Thanks for clearing stuff up in this thread Steve.

 

[I <3 Memes]

Great thread so far. Steve Gibson shows up to defend himself. Then Scott Kevill posts in here extolling the virtues of gameranger. Now all we need is for whoever is in charge of gamespy to show up and make a statement. Then Randy Pitchford can come in and defend Borderlands and Gearbox's use of Gamespy. Then Gabe Newell can come in for the Coup de grace by virtually circling the ring knocking fools out WWE style.

 

[Boonoo]

Great thread so far. Steve Gibson shows up to defend himself. Then Scott Kevill posts in here extolling the virtues of gameranger. Now all we need is for whoever is in charge of gamespy to show up and make a statement. Then Randy Pitchford can come in and defend Borderlands and Gearbox's use of Gamespy. Then Gabe Newell can come in for the Coup de grace by virtually circling the ring knocking fools out WWE style.

Gabe would get bonus points if his GAF name was Gaben.

 

[erpg]

I would probably faint if Gabe posted. I know I tinkle a little when I get an e-mail reply.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

Great thread so far. Steve Gibson shows up to defend himself. Then Scott Kevill posts in here extolling the virtues of gameranger. Now all we need is for whoever is in charge of gamespy to show up and make a statement. Then Randy Pitchford can come in and defend Borderlands and Gearbox's use of Gamespy. Then Gabe Newell can come in for the Coup de grace by virtually circling the ring knocking fools out WWE style.

(Somebody with the skills put their faces on it :lol)

 

[1-D_FTW]

Actually, Alienware computers now come pre-installed with Steam.


The Pit Worker/Drone seem an awful lot like Antlions from HL2:EP2.

I wish Valve would just get rid of the whole "Race X" thing and make all of those native Xen creatures, no different from Headcrabs or Vorts.

Speaking of which, what happened to Xen :/
We haven't seen is since HL, and now it's kind of not even mentioned at all. Xen was one of the coolest parts of HL, and it seems kind of abondoned now.

Most people like to pretend the Xen heavy ending of HL never happened. I think Valve wisely choose to take the same path.

 

[Stallion Free]

The Pit Worker/Drone seem an awful lot like Antlions from HL2:EP2.

I wish Valve would just get rid of the whole "Race X" thing and make all of those native Xen creatures, no different from Headcrabs or Vorts.

Speaking of which, what happened to Xen :/
We haven't seen is since HL, and now it's kind of not even mentioned at all. Xen was one of the coolest parts of HL, and it seems kind of abondoned now.

Race X only appeared after the Nihilanth was killed by Gordon Freeman. That's why you don't see any of them until a little after the level where you see Gordon enter the teleport to Xen.

Valve ignore Race X because they didn't create them, it isn't their work.

They also have kind of ignored Xen because:
A.) It doesn't fit into Half-Life 2 at the moment, it was just a borderworld used to cross over to Earth.
B.) 99% of the negative remarks about Half-Life 1 are in regards to the Xen finale.

 

[brain_stew]

Gibson on Shacknews:



http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=24220125#itemanchor_24220125

That just makes no sense at all though, its literally impossible. How could something like that ever be maintained without commercial backing? It simply couldn't it would require thousands of gamers to give donations each and every month in order to keep it going. Its just pie in the sky thinking and not even desirable, because without the cash to maintain it, the service would be simply horrible. So, as an alternative we can hope that the commercial alternatives don't put any restrictions in place that prevent them working with other services, and, lo and behold, that's precisiely the situation we've had all along.

As for his claim about retail copies and DD copies not playing nicely together online, i honestly can't think of a single example and yet its still implied this is somehow widespread. Gonna have to come up with some specific examples because otherwise he's just spreading FUD about the PC platform (and again serving to dismantle what he desires to create).

 

[Felix Lighter]

Wow, the people who don't like Borderlands, REALLY REALLY don't like Borderlands.

 

[Gully State]

That just makes no sense at all though, its literally impossible. How could something like that ever be maintained without commercial backing? It simply couldn't it would require thousands of gamers to give donations each and every month in order to keep it going. Its just pie in the sky thinking and not even desirable, because without the cash to maintain it, the service would be simply horrible. So, as an alternative we can hope that the commercial alternatives don't put any restrictions in place that prevent them working with other services, and, lo and behold, that's precisiely the situation we've had all along.

As for his claim about retail copies and DD copies not playing nicely together online, i honestly can't think of a single example and yet its still implied this is somehow widespread. Gonna have to come up with some specific examples because otherwise he's just spreading FUD about the PC platform (and again serving to dismantle what he desires to create).

There are some interesting similarities in propagation b/t the misconceptions of PC gaming and the false correlations b/t violence and videogaming.

 

[M3d10n]

This is akin to asking for being able to chat with your Google Talk contacts from Windows Live Messenger and vice-versa: either one of the companies gives up their own user account system in favor of using the competitor's, or the users resort to 3rd party tools which can sign in into both accounts at the same time.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Do want as a new skill for Brick.

 

[Scott Kevill]

That just makes no sense at all though, its literally impossible. How could something like that ever be maintained without commercial backing? It simply couldn't it would require thousands of gamers to give donations each and every month in order to keep it going. Its just pie in the sky thinking and not even desirable, because without the cash to maintain it, the service would be simply horrible. So, as an alternative we can hope that the commercial alternatives don't put any restrictions in place that prevent them working with other services, and, lo and behold, that's precisiely the situation we've had all along.

It doesn't necessarily have to be non-commercial, just not tied to a game store. I think that's the main problem here.

As for his claim about retail copies and DD copies not playing nicely together online, i honestly can't think of a single example and yet its still implied this is somehow widespread. Gonna have to come up with some specific examples because otherwise he's just spreading FUD about the PC platform (and again serving to dismantle what he desires to create).

This kind of thing is starting to happen already. Games with a Steam version that uses Steamworks for multiplayer, and a non-Steam version that either isn't multiplayer compatible or doesn't have multiplayer at all.

The problem is that a game using Steamworks is effectively bundling the Steam store with the game, which obviously isn't going to sit well with other download stores. Their options are either to not carry the title and hope that publishers see the risk in putting all their eggs in one basket, or to carry it and let Steam infiltrate their own customer base. Either way, Steam heads closer towards 100% monopoly.

 

[1-D_FTW]

It doesn't necessarily have to be non-commercial, just not tied to a game store. I think that's the main problem here.



This kind of thing is starting to happen already. Games with a Steam version that uses Steamworks for multiplayer, and a non-Steam version that either isn't multiplayer compatible or doesn't have multiplayer at all.

The problem is that a game using Steamworks is effectively bundling the Steam store with the game, which obviously isn't going to sit well with other download stores. Their options are either to not carry the title and hope that publishers see the risk in putting all their eggs in one basket, or to carry it and let Steam infiltrate their own customer base. Either way, Steam heads closer towards 100% monopoly.

I got news for you, someone is paying for it. The Steam store is funding that front end. Unless someone (publishers, gamers) wants to start paying for it, it has to be tied to something that can pay for its expenses.

Now we can wonder about what's in store for Steam's future (things like ebay use to rock, and now they're evil), but I don't really see any valid alternatives. Gearbox's bitching is all semantics IMO. Valve in it's current state is as perfect a system as we're ever going to get.

And what game has Steamworks as optional? There's plenty of games shipping retail with Steamworks. I'm not aware of a single game where it's exclusive to that purchased from the Steam store and retail is incompatible.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Ughh....playing Mafia II on a pad...

Mafia 2 plays great with MKB.

 

[brain_stew]

This kind of thing is starting to happen already. Games with a Steam version that uses Steamworks for multiplayer, and a non-Steam version that either isn't multiplayer compatible or doesn't have multiplayer at all.
.

It is? In what games? I don't know of a single one. Stemworks can work with any copy of a game, no matter where its bought, if publishers are keeping it out of certain version its not the fault of Valve and Steamworks, its their one bone headed decision.

It doesn't necessarily have to be non-commercial, just not tied to a game store. I think that's the main problem here.
.

He didn't say anything of the sort though. Incidentally GFWL doesn't require you to have the standalone client (and thus store) installed at all and neither does Stardock's new middleware solution, so even this stipulation doesn't have to apply if developers don't want it to.

Giving your customers access to the Steam store makes the middleware more complete and useful to the publisher though as it facilitates the sale of DLC. You can't have your cake and eat it, either stop selling DLC or quit your bitching about any middleware solution being tied to a store, because that middleware solution wouldn't be able to offer you what you want if it was completely separate to any store.

I'm sorry but people need to stop trying to rationalise these meanderings, none of them are based in reality.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Steve Gibson? Doesn't he also host a security podcast with Leo Laporte on the TWiT network? He also wrote SpinRite, the world's best hard disk recovery and maintenance utility.

 

[brain_stew]

This is akin to asking for being able to chat with your Google Talk contacts from Windows Live Messenger and vice-versa: either one of the companies gives up their own user account system in favor of using the competitor's, or the users resort to 3rd party tools which can sign in into both accounts at the same time.

Indeed, its the sort of ramblings I expect from a mad Linux zealot, not from someone with a privileged and influential role within the industry. If you work in marketing then you better damn well understand the realities of your own market, ffs.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Gearbox polling for MP opinions on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/GearboxSoftware

I used Carcassonne for my answers, sad but true :lol