Not everyone has to have a driver's license. Turns out if you're too poor to own a car, you might not bother to get one.
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Strict voter ID law approved in Michigan House
- Thread starter WedgeX
- Start date
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Not everyone has to have a driver's license. Turns out if you're too poor to own a car, you might not bother to get one.
Super_Cobra
Member
Well at least some form ID, Jesus.
It is amazing how many people just assume because they have easy access to something, everyone must.
Super_Cobra said:
Sure, now approve your tax dollars to pay for it.
why am i hearing crickets again?
Whether you're fortunate or not to have your shit together -- the documents needed for an ID, the means to travel to a DMV or ID-issuing location, the time and money for getting these IDs or supporting documents -- should not be a qualification for exercising your right to vote.
Voter ID laws are designed to make it harder for people to vote, and consequently disenfranchise thousands of otherwise voting-eligible Americans. They predominantly discriminate against minority and lower-income Americans, who are predominantly vote Democrat, hence why these laws continue to be pushed by Republicans. The laws are passed under the guise of protecting elections from voter fraud, but voter fraud is a statistically insignificant problem, happening dozens of times among literally hundreds of millions of votes cast.
There's no reason that either the federal government or all 50 state governments automatically register Americans to vote at age 18 and issue out free, voting-compliant voter IDs to each registered voter, other than to make it harder for people to vote. Voting isn't a right, and infringing on the ability to exercise that right is unconstitutional and immoral.
Not all forms of ID are acceptable for voting.
No one is upset with the fact you need ID's to vote, it's the stifling bureaucracy that is built around the process of getting an ID which does not help with curbing voter fraud that people find disgusting, rather it's set up so people of certain demographics are set up to fail when going about the process required to vote.
Voting which is an essential part of a democracy and precious right the citizens of a democratic nation are bestowed so that their voice is heard.
I have yet to see anyone on this thread opposed to the concept of requiring an ID to Vote.
ErasureAcer
Banned
But free for old folks, a very Republican leaning demographic. How quaint!
Why would they have to have one? I don't have a driver's license because I live (and have lived) in regions of abundant public transportation and rails, and I like to walk/run/bike to places.
I could own a car and have a license if I chose to but I have no need for one, and have long since taken out a StateID in its stead. But I also happen to be white and upper class, so a lot of these things would normally not even be things I'd think about or realize were going on because they do not affect my bracket and, in general, do not target my skin tone or economic position.
However, many people are not in my position and do not not have a license out of volition but because they simply cannot afford a car. And said people could also have trouble getting a StateID for various reasons such as no permanent address or being homeless.
Moreover, these same "Voter ID" laws draw often times arbitrary (as in precision chosen to disenfranchise as many people as possible, ie. blatantly evil) rules as to what constitutes a valid ID. They stack the deck as hard and as blatantly as they possibly can in their favor at the cost of the rights of entire groups of people.
I refuse to give the "benefit of the doubt" to any one who votes for this group of hoodlums. I'd sooner give Lex Luthor the benefit of the doubt than these clowns because at least the Legion of Doom were upfront and open about their evils... and they weren't racist.
Not really. People who have every right to vote would still show up without the right IDs. Rich white people would still smile and let other rich white people through because "I forget all the time too. At least you've got your drivers license" while rejecting anyone they thought looked funny. Even if you did show up with an ID, it still gives them an excuse to question and harass you. "You don't look quite the same in this picture" "Why is there no address here" These laws are all basically in place to give reasons to question, harass, and reject people. They serve no other purpose.
Honestly the way to fight this at this point is to get nonprofits to play by their rules, pour donor money in to make sure that people get valid voter IDs: give them a stipend to miss work and bus them to the nearest ID center if you have to.
It would become a moving target after that, until the only valid form of ID would be a hunting license of CCW license, but it would be a hell of a ride down.
It would become a moving target after that, until the only valid form of ID would be a hunting license of CCW license, but it would be a hell of a ride down.
yanipheonu
Member
I do love that people who make these bill run from "people who clearly are just trying to rig the election" to "people who legitimately think people voting for people they don't like is unfair".
The latter is the height of intellectual poverty.
The latter is the height of intellectual poverty.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
If this shit isn't blatant I don't know what is. It's a fucking municipal ID.
Any comments on this Zoe or others that think these laws are okay?
Zoe
Member
It also doesn't meet a lot of requirements that are required from other forms of ID.
I never said I support all of these laws. I do believe everybody should have valid ID though, and the government should make that as easy as possible. These laws are going to be passed regardless of whether that happens though, so private groups and citizens have to do what they can to help others get what they need.
CyclopsRock
Member
But does it actually? I know that what you have posted is the commonly held belief, but does it actually make a difference? I can't find it now, but Nate Cohn suggested that the laws made no difference in the latest presidential election and here's an article from the last midterms where he states the same thing.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/upshot/why-voter-id-laws-dont-swing-many-elections.html
The key bit:
As someone who works in the social service field I can say with confidence getting an ID can be a nightmare. Our clients are constantly running into problems because they lack some original document that can only be gotten with an ID. However you feel about needing an ID to vote you can bet GOP lawmakers are only out to disenfranchise people.
Several of them have publicly stated they do it to help themselves win elections but of course they tell joe public its common sense voter fraud protection and they eat it up.
Several of them have publicly stated they do it to help themselves win elections but of course they tell joe public its common sense voter fraud protection and they eat it up.
killer rin
Member
Those are already out of date. I remember reading a couple weeks ago that the Liberals just passed a law overturning the Conservatives Voter ID Requirements back to the pre-conservative modifications
A) It isn't law to have a drivers license in the USA.
B) If you live in a city that has a semi-decent public transportation system or is highly walkable, chances are there are a large majority of people who don't have a Driver's License. I know in Toronto that is the case
Perspective on how hard it is to obtain government issued IDs in the post-Real ID era. As a (now former) social worker.
First, when starting from scratch to obtain an ID now require:
But that's not life for everyone. Bad things happen. Evictions, fires, robberies. And in poverty? Well good luck afford all of the above. But wait, there have been funds provided for free documents! Well, those are often held in social service agencies that already have limited resources and so require people to come in at specific times.
I spent so much damn time trying to get documents for people just to get an ID. Because bad things happen all the damn time. Struggled myself to always remember the proper order of documents to obtain. And not all are lucky enough to even have connections to social service agencies to get help with obtaining all these documents.
And funds are limited. A good question for Michiganders to ask is if the non-profit agencies that will be tasked with helping disperse these waiver funds will be actually compensated or if it will eat into their service budgets.
Oh, and the fees that are waived for people with low incomes who can prove a disability or such? They need to obtain documentation from those agencies.
Think about how long my post is and think about how willing most people are to complete all these tasks and remember that this is a barrier to the most basic of rights in our democratic republic.
First, when starting from scratch to obtain an ID now require:
- birth certificate
- proof of residency (so a bill, mail from the government with the mail still inside, a letter from a social service agency, etc.)
- proof of social security number
- a state issued ID!
- w2
- ironically, voter registration card
- letter from the Social Security Administration
- school records, baptism records (yep)
- State issued ID!
- Citizenship which requires...a birth certificate!
- Identity which requires....a state issued ID!
- health insurance card (hoping living in a place, unlike Michigan, with expanded Medicaid and thus easy access to insurance at all)
- school or employer ID
- And actually hospital records signed by a doctor with your date of birth, social security number, and name on it.
But that's not life for everyone. Bad things happen. Evictions, fires, robberies. And in poverty? Well good luck afford all of the above. But wait, there have been funds provided for free documents! Well, those are often held in social service agencies that already have limited resources and so require people to come in at specific times.
I spent so much damn time trying to get documents for people just to get an ID. Because bad things happen all the damn time. Struggled myself to always remember the proper order of documents to obtain. And not all are lucky enough to even have connections to social service agencies to get help with obtaining all these documents.
And funds are limited. A good question for Michiganders to ask is if the non-profit agencies that will be tasked with helping disperse these waiver funds will be actually compensated or if it will eat into their service budgets.
Oh, and the fees that are waived for people with low incomes who can prove a disability or such? They need to obtain documentation from those agencies.
Think about how long my post is and think about how willing most people are to complete all these tasks and remember that this is a barrier to the most basic of rights in our democratic republic.
Vow of Silence
Banned
Would be interested in seeing you guys who are really against voter ID to respond to these videos. Are the points they make valid?
Ami Horowitz: How white liberals really view black voters:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
Some Black Guy: Voter ID laws are racist?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ok061tgm0dg
I'm from the UK myself, when I was younger I never got my shit together to register to vote but it turned out to be pretty easy to do once I grew up enough to be bothered to do so. You need a national insurance number which I think is the equivalent to the US social security number. If you have a distaster like your house and all your worldly possessions are destroyed, yes, getting ID sorted out is probably very tedious. However for the vast majority of people I wouldn't think obtaining and presenting ID is that much of an issue.
Ami Horowitz: How white liberals really view black voters:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
Some Black Guy: Voter ID laws are racist?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ok061tgm0dg
I'm from the UK myself, when I was younger I never got my shit together to register to vote but it turned out to be pretty easy to do once I grew up enough to be bothered to do so. You need a national insurance number which I think is the equivalent to the US social security number. If you have a distaster like your house and all your worldly possessions are destroyed, yes, getting ID sorted out is probably very tedious. However for the vast majority of people I wouldn't think obtaining and presenting ID is that much of an issue.
Enosh
Member
anything that can be issues to undocumented immigrants shouldn't be allowed to be used as voting ID, I really don't see how that is controversial
Aw... no takers? I wanted to know what people like Slo had to say about it. They don't accept arguements against it. I want to know how this is a boon...
The ID doesn't prove your eligibility, it proves your identity. Registering to vote proves your eligibility. If you've got an ID but aren't on the voter rolls, you're not voting.
StopMakingSense
Member
How is an undocumented immigrant managing to register to vote?
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
It's used to prove identity, not voting eligibility. That is done when you register to vote.
EDIT
I see it was covered by Ri'Orius
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
For a party that wants to remove government rule on everything they sure do like to interfere in people's rights.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Do people realize that most of these voter ID law are done to make it more difficult for registered voters to actually vote? Your voting eligibility, i.e. citizenship, is confirmed when you register to vote already.
GoldenEye 007
Member
You should understand how voter registration works.
thehypocrite
Member
Cause they are given for free to everyone, that's how they do it.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't even think we're legally required to have any form of ID.
Bumblebeetuna
Gold Member
I don't see any issue in requiring photo ID to vote. Its not hard to get an ID.
It is not hard for young people who already have ID to get ID. For everyone else:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=226258188&postcount=123
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Not until it is completely free and extremely easy for EVERYONE to get a photo ID.
Voter fraud is not an issue as is. Voter suppression is a whole other story.
DragonSworne
Banned
Republicans think IDs are the sign of the anti-Christ signaling that the end times are near.
Why?
EdibleKnife
Member
With the caveat that the words voter fraud can't be mentioned as though it's a serious issue.
I mean if you can prove that voter fraud is an issue fine.
But, well... this: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-finds-no-evidence-widespread-voter-fraud-n637776
... doesn't justify suppressing the votes of tens to hundreds of thousands of people.
But, well... this: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-finds-no-evidence-widespread-voter-fraud-n637776
... doesn't justify suppressing the votes of tens to hundreds of thousands of people.
Boss Mog
Member
It's not hard to get and I think it's more racist to assume that black people don't have/can't get an ID, even if you don't have a car or driver's license (I don't) you can still have a state ID, they don't cost much at all.
I know this is from Fox News, so it's to be taken with a grain of salt, but maybe it'll make some people think a little before they start make assumptions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
samoscratch
Member
I'm seriously losing sleep over all of this shit...It physically hurts me to see the erosion of our constitution I feel scared as hell.
But I've become very involved since the election, and I made a pledge to stand up without fail to any discrimination I personally witness. I will Call my "representatives" I will sign petitions, I will protest , I will not let this go easily. And I would love it if everyone did the same.
Fuck the GOP, what service do they fucking provide? they are just fucking evil good god, like wtf.
But I've become very involved since the election, and I made a pledge to stand up without fail to any discrimination I personally witness. I will Call my "representatives" I will sign petitions, I will protest , I will not let this go easily. And I would love it if everyone did the same.
Fuck the GOP, what service do they fucking provide? they are just fucking evil good god, like wtf.
Metalingus5150
Member
They don't know history sadly. :/
EmpressInYellow
Banned
Boss★Moogle;226287117 said:
Did you read the posts upthread from actual/former social workers about the difficulties involved in obtaining a government ID?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
It's like you didn't even read the thread.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
At the end of the day people should just look at WHY voter ID laws are being passed to realize that it's all downhill from here. It's not about any one detail specifically, like a cited form of ID. It's about keeping people from voting.
If state ID is no longer a problem for anyone, then voting laws will suddenly show up that try to physically prevent poor people, non-white people from voting. They'll try to shut down polling stations, move them across the state, insure they're only open at certain hours in suspiciously selected places.
Yes, when it gets to that point it'll start to become hilariously unconstitutional and the lawsuits will fly, but all that Republicans have to do is insure they win just one election and they're in control for another 8 years during which they can try to fuck things even further.
Try to see the big picture here. If Republicans actually cared about the sanctity of voting, they'd be reforming state laws to enable people to get voting IDs more securely but also more easily for those who need help, so that everyone is nice, identified, and ready to properly vote. They're not doing that. At all.
If state ID is no longer a problem for anyone, then voting laws will suddenly show up that try to physically prevent poor people, non-white people from voting. They'll try to shut down polling stations, move them across the state, insure they're only open at certain hours in suspiciously selected places.
Yes, when it gets to that point it'll start to become hilariously unconstitutional and the lawsuits will fly, but all that Republicans have to do is insure they win just one election and they're in control for another 8 years during which they can try to fuck things even further.
Try to see the big picture here. If Republicans actually cared about the sanctity of voting, they'd be reforming state laws to enable people to get voting IDs more securely but also more easily for those who need help, so that everyone is nice, identified, and ready to properly vote. They're not doing that. At all.
A Link to the Past
Banned
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