• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Curious Case of Hillary Clinton (Opinion)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Or: How I Learned to Start Worrying and Hate my Cassandra Complex

This is my insignificant take on the two remaining Democratic candidates for the presidency, and why I am both unsurprised and yet also slightly upset by the accelerating flight of Democratic voters from longtime favorite Hillary Rodham Clinton to the populist and democratic socialist Bernie Sanders. This is also a small message to Bernie Sanders supporters on this website to reconsider in fact why they are feeling the Bern.

I am an under-30 millennial who immediately jumped on the Sanders bandwagon as soon as he announced his campaign last summer, due to long-standing familiarity with his name and policies, having been brought up in a staunchly progressive populist household. The appeal was obvious: here was a candidate who was going to tax the wealthy, break up the big banks, enact single payer healthcare, protect American labor, keep us out of middle eastern quagmires, etc. Hillary was only a good choice in a vacuum, as the "Not-a-Republican" candidate. After all, isn't that what we were told in 2008? She was less authentic as a progressive, too, having supported the Iraq War, being against gay marriage (for "deeply held moral convictions"), flipping or remaining reticent on Keystone XL and TPP, personally advocating for a policy that essentially destroyed Libya, etc.

Most people that support Sanders are deeply convinced of his authenticity, and people across the board are actually convinced of Clinton's inauthenticity! "Bernie Sanders will fight for the people." This is what I believed.

But the moral integrity and authenticiy of a candidate, despite being highly effective and important factors in wooing the electorate, are not actual, objective reasons to vote for someone. The reality is that politicians have consistently betrayed their campaign promises and moral compasses as a matter of course. Why is Guantanamo Bay's detention center for enemy combatants and terrorist suspects still active? Why did Bush raise taxes, after asking people to "read his lips"? The mind is willing, but the flesh is weak (to the political calculus).

No, the fairest way to compare candidates is to compare record and policy, not arbitrary notions of having one's heart in the right place. And on the matter of policy, you might accurately say that Clinton and Sanders are 95% identical!

Where do they differ? You might be able to describe Sanders as a Clinton-Plus Package, where the Plus consists of $15 minimum wage, breaking up big banks and reinstating Glass-Steagal, expanding single payer healthcare, free college for everyone, and an increase in most federal programs like Medicare and Social Security. And it turns out that on most of these issues, Sanders is wrong (and conversely, Clinton is right).

Most economists agree that raising the minimum wage as high as $12.10 an hour would not produce any significant change in employment around the country, but would have the very real effect of increasing the standard of living for millions of Americans. This is Clinton's position. But raising it as high as $15 is an unheard of socioeconomical experiment that has no equivalent anywhere in the world. The effects will be probably negative, and at worst disastrous for low income employment. Sanders proposes mitigating this by increasing federal programs. But this increases the reliance of people on federal programs for basic living, a longheld conservative complaint. Robert Reich says that even though there will be job losses, such jobs which pay below 15 an hour are not worth working. But who is he to decide for the least privileged that they should be relegated to government entitlement programs and not have the opportunity to work? The smartest thing to do would be to observe such a wage increase in controlled settings like LA and Seattle, and then adopt nationally after economists tease out the effects.

Sanders wants to break up the big banks. But is that so wise? Goldman-Sachs was not even a top 20 bank during The financial crisis, and Bear Stearns wasn't even a mega-bank so it seems that being mega-sized is not the problem. If JP Morgan were divided into smaller components based on function, like Glass-Steagall might (re-)do, those components would actually still be "systematically important" to the world economy. The most damaging fact for me, however, is learning that one of the reasons the Great Depression was so bad was that smaller banks were failing by the hundreds, and due to their size they did not have the capital to mitigate the effects of losses. Meanwhile, our Great Recession was not so bad partly because huge banks in fact did have the capital, size, and infrastructure and were compelled by government to absorb/manage failing smaller banks! The big banks were instrumental in fixing the crisis that risky lending and removing Glass-Steagall had partly caused. Something that Sanders likes to quote is that 3 out of 4 of the big banks are larger now than right before the financial crisis. This is terrifying! Or is it? The fourth bank of course is Citigroup, who lost big-time during the crisis. The reality is that the other 3 banks are so large now because they took over the corpus of Citigroup's losses and the other smaller banks which could not survive the recession, not because they have expanded like bloated oligarchs ready to burst in their depraved opulence. But none of this matters to Bernie because, as he likes to point out, nobody went to jail for the financial meltdown. But why should they? They didn't do anything illegal! They just played by Greenspan's risky rules. The important point here is that the Bernie Sanders policy is primarily a take-revenge-on-the-banks policy. People need to feel justice. Heads need to roll. Banks need to fracture. It doesn't matter what actually works or what's actually true.

I risk repeating most of what is in the other NeoGAF thread about Sanders' healthcare plan being unfeasibly expensive. I will just say that while I support single payer, it is pretty obvious that Europe has adapted over decades to single payer, while the United States has not. Replicating the savings would be pretty difficult, but more importantly it would be impossible to even pass this kind of legislation in the republican house for four years. On this matter, Hillary Clinton has a wide range of moderate proposals that expand on Obamacare and improve it.

And in fact, the same is true about college. Universities in the United States are hugely different in structure than those all across continental Europe. In Germany, school is like a public utility that citizens are entitled to. Here, it is like an expensive resort where higher learning is supplemented by a massive amount of other costs (sports, dormitories, on campus facilities...) The funding model cannot work the same across the Atlantic because the cost model has not been the same for decades, and this is semi permanent because it is infrastructural. Europe has adapted to this for decades. It will take years to move to free education, but switching immediately to all-public-costs covered would actually encourage schools to not reduce their cost and would hinder widespread institutional transition merely because of the cost.

On these and on other issues, Hillary Clinton is usually more reserved than Sanders for the very reason that she is simply a careful and calculating candidate. As the New York Times endorsement wrote, when people criticize her for flipping on TPP, it is because they are criticizing her for not steaming blindly ahead with ideals instead of being willing to learn and adapt as new information comes out. She doesn't fight for single payer in this country anymore despite being one of its strongest proponents not because she is a Pharma shill, but because the reality is that it would never pass Congress and wasn't going to even with democratic supermajorities. For those of you waiting for a political revolution to sweep the country, not only would it need to retake the Congress, but it would need to convince all those conservative democrats from 2008 to suddenly adopt ultra progressive ideals (which as I stated before are sometimes misguided and at other times uninformed). All of this would need to happen in a country whose political system was designed to hinder change and represent the political viewpoints of the majority of Americans.

The NPR referred to her jokingly as "Wonk in Chief" because of the 50,000+ words of policy papers her campaign has released (all with footnotes!). But in a time of political partisanship and fervor, being data-driven is more important than ever. And this is why it is unsurprising that Bernie Sanders is more popular than Hillary Clinton. Data is not sexy and you cannot win voters with facts. For the majority of Americans, you need to feel political change, not read about it on wonk blogs and debates.

And then there's her reputation. The common assessment among my voting bloc is that she is inauthentic and untrustworthy. But what real scandal is she even responsible for? From emails to Benghazi, from looting the White House to being "broke", Hillary Clinton has been the subject of conservative political hitpieces for the past 24 years. And all of this has worked not only on Republicans, but many Democrats. The truth is, Hillary Clinton is a hard left progressive with a long history of fighting for the liberal cause. And that's it.

If you don't believe that, then Newt Gingrich really did win.

You know what's the standard for political scandal? The Bush administration. Dick Cheney. Donald Rumsfeld. The Bush administration lied to Colin Powell so they could get him to lie to the American people about Saddam Hussein. The Bush administration forced a 5 star general to resign because he wasn't on board as a yes-man for liberating Iraq. The Bush Administration fired career appointed lawyers (which they had no authority to do) for targeting Republicans who were wrongdoers. You want to talk about emails? When shit finally hit the fan over "Lawyergate", millions upon millions of emails suddenly disappeared related to this scandal even though higher level officials would have been implicated. The Bush administration caused Dick Clark to resign before 9/11 because they weren't listening to his warnings about al-Qaeda. The Bush administration regularly controlled the media representation of the Iraq War so that public support would continue even though boys were being sodomized in front of their mothers in Abu Ghraib. The Bush administration escalated Guantanamo Bay to the point of breaking the Geneva Convention and sullying America's reputation.

There is your political standard for lies and scandal. If you remember that the same people who have shouted in your ear for a quarter century that Hillary Clinton is untrustworthy were the staunchest supporters of the Bush administration, then you realize that there is absolutely no comparison. Making a remark that sometimes Clinton feels cold or unenthused is splitting the most microscopic of hairs. She is not your grandmother. She is a political leader. You are not getting a hug, you are getting borrow-free college tuition and sane gun control.

So the curious case of Hillary Clinton is that she is a candidate whose reflection is much uglier than who she really is, but only if you bought a dirty mirror. The curious case is that she is a woman and a hard left progressive, and yet youth enthusiasts are overwhelmingly supporting Sanders, because he is farther left. The curious case is that conservative hit-pieces and biased media reporting eroded the trust of working class liberals and young democrats. Having been a Sanders supporter for a solid 8 1/2 months and then stepping back and changing my mind has made me realize that this is a predictable but altogether unfortunate situation for her to be in.

Bernie Sanders does not have a very good chance of winning, so why am I complaining? Who cares? Because there are millions of young democrats right now who are going to be very disappointed when Sanders loses the nomination. They are going to feel disenfranchised with modern politics, bemoan the power of big money interests (did you know campaign finance reform is also Clinton's biggest platform issue?), and feel like they got cheated with a very subpar candidate. They should not feel that way. Both candidates are very good candidates. They are both progressives. Just watch a good Clinton speech from the 90s or the early 2000s and you will see the same progressive fire that Sanders has (she has calmed down in recent years). And they agree on 95% of everything.
 

nynt9

Member
Coming up with excuses for Clinton's flips and her shortcomings might have worked for you, but it's not convincing for other people. She dodges direct questions all the time and never really answers an unfavorable question in debates. She has policies that aren't as left as you claim. And she has a lot of ties to establishment. Plucking holes in Bernie's policies and saying she's not as bad as she could be isn't really helping your case.

If someone made a similar thread for Bernie it would be trolled to death too, by the way. This is a lot of rationalization. There are intelligent people who have legitimate arguments against her, patronizing those people won't get you anywhere.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Bernie Sanders does not have a very good chance of winning, so why am I complaining? Who cares? Because there are millions of young democrats right now who are going to be very disappointed when Sanders loses the nomination. They are going to feel disenfranchised with modern politics, bemoan the power of big money interests (did you know campaign finance reform is also Clinton's biggest platform issue?), and feel like they got cheated with a very subpar candidate. They should not feel that way. Both candidates are very good candidates. They are both progressives. And they agree on 95% of everything.

This is something she needs to be targeting and working on like Sanders and the minority vote. She lacks in the youth vote which is 20% of the total vote.
 
I think a lot of really impassioned Sanders supporters look at the way Hillary has addressed many important, populist-centric issues through her campaign as being half-hearted, even if her policy positions aren't really that off-base. They also are sick of feeling as though they're being spoken to by career politicians trying to run career-advancing campaigns instead of populist ones. Her campaign has definitely felt tirelessly focus-tested and deliberately moderate; Sanders meanwhile appears to simply know his pain points, with the exception of his posture on guns.

My hunch is that most people would be happy with even modest gains in a lot of the areas where you perceive that Sanders is pushing too hard and his policy objectives are longshots. But when you look at who you want to champion you in a political arena where even the better policy choices don't actually wind up being sufficient to fix the actual problems (see: the ACA), lots of people are likely to pick a candidate who is aiming higher, even if they don't quite hit the objective. (In all likelihood, the candidate aiming lower will have to make concessions as well, but they were never aiming as high in the first place.)
 

obin_gam

Member
If you can't have the fish, get the chicken.
- Bill Maher.

I don't care how hated he (Maher) is in America, this is a valid point. The chicken is at least ten times better than the republican option.
 

nynt9

Member
I think a lot of really impassioned Sanders supporters look at the way Hillary has addressed many important, populist-centric issues through her campaign as being half-hearted, even if her policy positions aren't really that off-base. They also are sick of feeling as though they're being spoken to by career politicians trying to run career-advancing campaigns instead of populist ones. Her campaign has definitely felt tirelessly focus-tested and deliberately moderate; Sanders meanwhile appears to simply know his pain points, with the exception of his posture on guns.

My hunch is that most people would be happy with even modest gains in a lot of the areas where you perceive that Sanders is pushing too hard and his policy objectives are longshots. But when you look at who you want to champion you in a political arena where even the better policy choices don't actually wind up being sufficient to fix the actual problems (see: the ACA), lots of people are likely to pick a candidate who is aiming higher, even if they don't quite hit the objective. (In all likelihood, the candidate aiming lower will have to make concessions as well, but they were never aiming as high in the first place.)

This right here is pretty accurate I think. And one thing that a lot of people miss is, even if President Bernie (if that were a thing) can't pass many laws on things he wants to, he will still have the biggest soapbox in the world and the ability to influence the nation and the world. His rhetoric is definitely more interesting and invigorating, and I'd rather if he had the soapbox than Hillary, who as you said just seems to be in it to further her political career. Her speeches and answers to tough questions were very unsatisfactory to me, as it seems like she prioritizes not making mistakes over making changes.
 
I think a lot of really impassioned Sanders supporters look at the way Hillary has addressed many important, populist-centric issues through her campaign as being half-hearted, even if her policy positions aren't really that off-base. They also are sick of feeling as though they're being spoken to by career politicians trying to run career-advancing campaigns instead of populist ones. Her campaign has definitely felt tirelessly focus-tested and deliberately moderate; Sanders meanwhile appears to simply know his pain points, with the exception of his posture on guns.

My hunch is that most people would be happy with even modest gains in a lot of the areas where you perceive that Sanders is pushing too hard and his policy objectives are longshots. But when you look at who you want to champion you in a political arena where even the better policy choices don't actually wind up being sufficient to fix the actual problems (see: the ACA), lots of people are likely to pick a candidate who is aiming higher, even if they don't quite hit the objective. (In all likelihood, the candidate aiming lower will have to make concessions as well, but they were never aiming as high in the first place.)

At the end of the day people are likely going to see Hillary as a realist, with logical ideas and years upon years of experience in the political arena to pull from. She has the best resume of any candidate.

Bernie Sanders is the democrat Ron Paul... beloved by the internet and "true" liberals (ala true conservatives with Ron Paul), but too much of an idealogue in the public's eyes to make the compromises necessary to run the US.
 
Think of it this way: If someone who is trying to get votes to become president of the united states does so whilst proclaiming they're a socialist, they're probably being honest because it's normally considered political suicide.

Everything I've ever heard Hilary say is all by the book establishment politics.
 

gaugebozo

Member
Coming up with excuses for Clinton's flips and her shortcomings might have worked for you, but it's not convincing for other people. She dodges direct questions all the time and never really answers an unfavorable question in debates. She has policies that aren't as left as you claim. And she has a lot of ties to establishment. Plucking holes in Bernie's policies and saying she's not as bad as she could be isn't really helping your case.

If someone made a similar thread for Bernie it would be trolled to death too, by the way. This is a lot of rationalization. There are intelligent people who have legitimate arguments against her, patronizing those people won't get you anywhere.

Bernie turns questions about foreign policy into answers about big banks.

Also, it's pretty clear OP isn't saying, "She's not as bad as she seems," but that she's more likely to get her policies accomplished, even if those policies aren't 100% of what everyone wants. If you think Bernie could enact everything he has promised, just look at the 2008 (almost) supermajority that Obama still had to compromise with. His policies are completely unrealistic to get passed, even with a Democratic Congress.

Edit:
You're also assuming an avowed socialist can get elected anyway. If he can't win the general, not only do we not get the wishlist, we get 20 years of a conservative Supreme Court majority.
 
Queen keeps winning them over!

Hillarydancing.gif
 
This is something she needs to be targeting and working on like Sanders and the minority vote. She lacks in the youth vote which is 15% of the total vote.
Ha! She tries, and utterly fails. Remember "Chillary Clinton"? There is no politician today that understands how to properly target social media.

Coming up with excuses for Clinton's flips and her shortcomings might have worked for you, but it's not convincing for other people. She dodges direct questions all the time and never really answers an unfavorable question in debates. She has policies that aren't as left as you claim. And she has a lot of ties to establishment. Plucking holes in Bernie's policies and saying she's not as bad as she could be isn't really helping your case.
She has a very careful way of speaking. Believe it or not, this is how almost all politicians are. And yes, she has a lot of ties to establishment. She is the only Democratic party candidate running for president. By lack-of-other-democrats, the democratic establishment is going to support her. But have you ever asked yourself why people from Monsanto end up running the FDA? Why people who worked at Goldman-Sachs end up being Secretary of Treasury? Have you ever thought that maybe... those people really are among the most qualified to be experts?

By the time Barrack Obama was running for re-election, he also had huge ties to establishment. But the reality is that the "establishment" is composed of some of the largest and most important cogs in the economy. You can't ignore them.

If someone made a similar thread for Bernie it would be trolled to death too, by the way. This is a lot of rationalization. There are intelligent people who have legitimate arguments against her, patronizing those people won't get you anywhere.
I respect and agree with many of those intelligent reasons for preferring Sanders to Clinton, and I am not patronizing those people. This is not what this thread is about.
 

KingV

Member
Look up her involvement in welfare reform in 1996, it's effect on the poor, and her subsequent celebration of said reform for the last 20 years.

Then come back and tell me if you think she is still a 'hard left liberal'.

Edit: I also don't get the "realistic" policy goals argument. Very few politicians have realistic policy goals. You think Trump is going to actually build a wall and get Mexico to pay for it?

The one thing that every liberal should have learned from Obama is that you start negotiating from your ideal position and then converge on what's realistic. Hillary's realistic policy goals will get her to compromise into some warmed over Republican policies like Obama consistently did for the first 5 or so years of his Presidency.
 

fantomena

Member
If you can't have the fish, get the chicken.
- Bill Maher.

I don't care how hated he (Maher) is in America, this is a valid point. The chicken is at least ten times better than the republican option.

Maher is hated by who? Republicans? Maher must be one of the hugest supporters of Obama when it comes to TV hosts, he almost always defends Hillary and apparently semi-endorsed Bernie when he interviewed him.

He even straight out said that he wished the democrats were socialists.
 
At the end of the day people are likely going to see Hillary as a realist, with logical ideas and years upon years of experience in the political arena to pull from. She has the best resume of any candidate.

Bernie Sanders is the democrat Ron Paul... beloved by the internet and "true" liberals (ala true conservatives with Ron Paul), but too much of an idealogue in the public's eyes to make the compromises necessary to run the US.

Do people really think that Bernie won't settle for a $12.10 minimum wage increase instead of $15 (realistically speaking, instead of nothing) if that's what he can get through Congress?

I think it's infinitely more likely that disaffected Bernie supporters don't support Hillary in the general (while meanwhile I doubt the reverse would be true) than Bernie not supporting a more modest wage increase than his stated goal.

(This is coming from someone who in the end doesn't believe I stand to benefit particularly more or less from either candidate vs. the other.)
 

Kyosaiga

Banned
Look up her involvement in welfare reform in 1996, it's effect on the poor, and her subsequent celebration of said reform for the last 20 years.

Then come back and tell me if you think she is still a 'hard left liberal'.

Are you even remotely aware of the political climate in the 90s? Clinton chose the lesser of two evils because the alternatives would've been far far worse.
 
Ive been Feelin The Bern since I was kookoo for Kucinich 13 years ago. Your post asking me to reconsider ia ridiculous. There are some people who believe in justice. There are some people who believe in justice. Then there are Hillary supporters.
 
Maher is hated by who? Republicans? Maher must be one of the hugest supporters of Obama when it comes to TV hosts, he almost always defends Hillary and apparently semi-endorsed Bernie when he interviewed him.

He even straight out said that he wished the democrats were socialists.

Maher isn't afraid to express his dissatisfaction and contempt for those of faith. Which causes him a lot of friction from other liberals
(including myself, despite me also being atheist)
. At the end of the day though both he and I do not want to see the republicans win.
 

noshten

Member
At the end of the day people are likely going to see Hillary as a realist, with logical ideas and years upon years of experience in the political arena to pull from. She has the best resume of any candidate.

Bernie Sanders is the democrat Ron Paul... beloved by the internet and "true" liberals (ala true conservatives with Ron Paul), but too much of an idealogue in the public's eyes to make the compromises necessary to run the US.

And Hillary is the democratic version of Mitt Romney, not liked by "true" liberals - made fun of on the Internet and too much of a pandering flipflopper in the public's eyes to really make anyone enthusiastic about her prospects in a GE other than the people donating $2700 to her campaign.
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
The answer to your question is dependent on in what sense. What does she get out of being president that she hasn't already gotten from her extensive career?

Is this a serious question? She would be the first Woman President in the history of the US. As she stands now she is a footnote in US political history, if she were elected President she would be catapulted to the forefront of American Politics for a very long time. That's a big legacy get on top of just the normal legacy of being the President. Not to say this is her motivation but it's not exactly hard to figure out how her being Pres could be a very big deal for her despite her prior accomplishments.
 
Do people really think that Bernie won't settle for a $12.10 minimum wage increase instead of $15 (realistically speaking, instead of nothing) if that's what he can get through Congress?

I think it's infinitely more likely that disaffected Bernie supporters don't support Hillary in the general (while meanwhile I doubt the reverse would be true) than Bernie not supporting a more modest wage increase than his stated goal.
Yes. Either that, or he will be forced to and is less prepared to do the political dealing necessary to get that compromise.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/09/bernie-sanders-naive-obama-214222#ixzz3z2cE4Nip

Senator Sanders said:
“I don’t have any illusion that I’m going to walk in, and I certainly hope it is not the case but if there is a Republican House and a Republican Senate, that I’m going to walk in there and say, ‘Hey guys, listen. I’d like you to work with me on raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour,’” he said. “It ain’t gonna happen, I have no illusion about that. The only way that I believe that change takes place … is that tens of millions of people are going to have to stand up and be involved in the political process the day after the election
So, basically, banking on the revolution.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Ha! She tries, and utterly fails. Remember "Chillary Clinton"? There is no politician today that understands how to properly target social media.

I would say Sanders is doing extremely well. It's partially why he's pulling in 90% of that 18-29 demo.

If you target the youth, they'll take care of all that social media for you. That really seems to be the key. Hence why I do think they are a more important demographic than let on to be. She's been striking out with it as bad as Sanders has been with the Black vote.

It's also why Obama has been so successful too. He's capable of getting that presence. I know people underestimate it, but there is no better source of free advertisement and awareness. People laugh about Reddit and Tumblr, but they can get your message on over a million eyes in a few days.

Clinton's uphill battle will be that. The youth vote with generating hype. The Republican's have maintained around 60million for the popular vote the past 3. Even with a weak candidate. The Democratics jumped from 60mil to 70mil back down to 65mil. They out number them, but they are far more apathetic. She'll need to do something to stir that pot when she gets the nom.
 
Maher is hated by who? Republicans? Maher must be one of the hugest supporters of Obama when it comes to TV hosts, he almost always defends Hillary and apparently semi-endorsed Bernie when he interviewed him.

He even straight out said that he wished the democrats were socialists.

I don't exactly hate him but I can't respect an anti-vaxxer. They are just as bad as climate change deniers. He seems to generally "support" science only when scientific consensus agrees with his political views.
 

obin_gam

Member
Maher is hated by who? Republicans? Maher must be one of the hugest supporters of Obama when it comes to TV hosts, he almost always defends Hillary and apparently semi-endorsed Bernie when he interviewed him.

He even straight out said that he wished the democrats were socialists.

When discussions about Maher is here on GAF, which is a rather left leaning forum overall, he gets a lot of shit.
 

ModBot

Not a mod, just a bot.
We don't need everyone to start their own personal thread about why they're voting the right way and others aren't. Plenty of existing threads in which to make your argument.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom