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[MickeyKnox]

He was revived on MGS, but Snake did killed him on MG2.

When was this explained?

No.

Liquid wanted a sample of his genetic information as part of the ransom as a means to find a "cure" for the genetic problems all the genome soldiers faced. Big Boss is a CORPSE during the events of MGS.

Raiden's replacement nano-machine blood is explained during a convo sequence in the Tanker chapter of MGS 2.

 

[Sage00]

It all happens, it's just all staged. With the exception of Snake and Otacon showing up and I believe Fatman's actions. (I might be wrong about Fatman?)

It was an experiment by the patriots to see if they could successfully control someone, in this case Raiden and I guess Fortune to a point - the test was a success.


In other information I think this thread kinda shows what the issue with the MGS series is, Kojima has one hell of a task explaining everything in MGS4.

It's not an issue. Kojima shouldn't have to tone down the story just because alot of people can't comprehend it.

 

[Prime crotch]

No.

Liquid wanted a sample of his genetic information as part of the ransom as a means to find a "cure" for the genetic problems all the genome soldiers faced. Big Boss is a CORPSE during the events of MGS.

Raiden's replacement nano-machine blood is explained during a convo sequence in the Tanker chapter of MGS 2.

I was talking about Gray Fox.

 

[Sage00]

No.

Liquid wanted a sample of his genetic information as part of the ransom as a means to find a "cure" for the genetic problems all the genome soldiers faced. Big Boss is a CORPSE during the events of MGS.

Raiden's replacement nano-machine blood is explained during a convo sequence in the Tanker chapter of MGS 2.

Wasn't he talking about Grey Fox?

Edit: Beaten.

 

[Umino]

No.

Liquid wanted a sample of his genetic information as part of the ransom as a means to find a "cure" for the genetic problems all the genome soldiers faced. Big Boss is a CORPSE during the events of MGS.

Raiden's replacement nano-machine blood is explained during a convo sequence in the Tanker chapter of MGS 2.

Well there was a shift in the amount from MGS2 - MGS4 because Kojima responded to questions about why Raiden is even paler.

 

[M3wThr33]

Ok. That is really helpful. So The Patriots consist of who exactly?

The Patriots are the American renamed branch of the Philosopher's, who were the world's braintrust and controlled everything. (USA, Russia and Chine) Huge shitloads of money. Dictated everything.

Their names are all quite secretive. No one knows. The Boss was a child of one of them, as was Eva and Volgin, I believe.

In MGS2, Solidus' whole purpose is to get to the computer down below and steal the censoring data in the machine. He figures since it controls all data that it must have the names of the Patriots, so they could be removed from the Internet information, etc.

Unfortunately at the end, once Otacon looks at the data, all the names listed are of deceased people. So we're back to square one trying to bring down big brother.

 

[Cheeto]

Wasn't there commentary on one of the GFW podcasts about the Metal Gear story? Basically, wasn't the idea that if you pieced together all the events it seemed like some guy in High School wrote it?

 

[dralla]

Gray Fox killed Naomi's parents!!! OH SNAP!

I think you should put a massive spoiler warning in the title

 

[timmy]

Spoiler

Raiden stabs himself in the stomach just so he can stab Vamp too.

 

[Saterium]

It's not an issue. Kojima shouldn't have to tone down the story just because alot of people can't comprehend it.

Well what I mean is the story at this point is so convoluted that bringing new players into MGS4 will be a problem. I personally love the story and believe I understand most of it. There's some very specific questions I want answered in MGS4 and I'll be disappointed if the story is toned down to make it mass market.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Ok. That is really helpful. So The Patriots consist of who exactly?

We don't know exactly who they are but we do know that the Boss and Volgin's fathers were members at one point.

 

[Umino]

Well what I mean is the story at this point is so convoluted that bringing new players into MGS4 will be a problem. I personally love the story and believe I understand most of it. There's some very specific questions I want answered in MGS4 and I'll be disappointed if the story is toned down to make it mass market.

They should just make it a series of mini-games and forgo any semblance of a story.

 

[widgetraf]

doesnt snake still have nanomachines in him?

raiden is in no way genetically related to big boss/snake. he was born from normal parents but raised by solidus. yes/no?

 

[Prime crotch]

Wasn't there commentary on one of the GFW podcasts abou the Metal Gear story? Basically, wasn't the idea that if piece together all the events it seemed like some guy in High School wrote it?

eh kind off it's more because Kojima writes things as he goes and then you have inconsistencies betwen the games. Like Big Boss never told Snake he was his dad and so on.

doesnt snake still have nanomachines in him?

raiden is in no way genetically related to big boss/snake. he was born from normal parents but raised by solidus. yes/no?

Yes.

 

[M3wThr33]

MGS3 proved that you can have a complete story in a game, with ties to the previous titles, without leaving the newcomers behind. MGS4 from the beginning is explained in familiar terms about war. No one is going to be confused by it. There's a lot of backstory, but I have faith, as shown in MGS3 and MGSO that it will make sense on its own.

Also, if you think it is horribly confusing, look at how many people in this thread are here to explain it, because we understand it... mostly.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Well there was a shift in the amount from MGS2 - MGS4 because Kojima responded to questions about why Raiden is even paler.

Well technically yeah, also remember that the only human parts of his new body are his head and spine.

He's gone cyborg.

 

[Manmademan]

No.

Liquid wanted a sample of his genetic information as part of the ransom as a means to find a "cure" for the genetic problems all the genome soldiers faced. Big Boss is a CORPSE during the events of MGS.

Raiden's replacement nano-machine blood is explained during a convo sequence in the Tanker chapter of MGS 2.

YES.

the parent post was talking about GRAY FOX, Mickeyknox. NOT Big Boss. Gray Fox was killed in MG2, then revived in MGS as a cyborg.

it was also never confirmed that big boss was a corpse during MGS. IIRC, at one point snake asks campbell why they don't just hand over big boss' body and campbell completely glosses over it and ignores him.

it's implied that the US govt either does not have big boss's body, or at the very least has no idea where it is.

 

[Slaylock]

Somebody post the PA strip already.

 

[Saterium]

We don't know exactly who they are but we do know that the Boss and Volgin's fathers were members at one point.

I think there needs to be a distinction between the Philosophers and the Patriots - they aren't the same.

The Patriots were born at the end of Portable Ops, the Philosophers ended shortly after WW2 when they started fighting with themselves and disbanded - only the $100 billion remained. At least thats what I think happened.

 

[Blader]

doesnt snake still have nanomachines in him?

Yes, FOXDIE. That's why when Liquid Ocelot triggered the soliders' nanomachines in the trailer, Snake was affected as well.

 

[dralla]

The US didn't hand over his body because Snake was there to infect everyone with FoxDie so they could take the Metal Gear for themselves

 

[LAMBO]

I liked how things were explained well in MGS3, at the end of the game you really knew what happened and there were no real big questions left. As the MGS timeline progresses it just gets so over complicated. Boss, big boss, grey fox, outerheaven, i can understand it all and thought it was a well put together story.

1st gen, nanomachine, 3rd gen nano machines, raiden's high reels and nails, some girl pregnant, vampires, SOP, ocelot possesion, mechs that go moo, it's gonna be MGS2 all over again. But at least it will play awesome.

 

[Sallokin]

I love these kinds of discussions. That being said. I'm still pretty fuzzy on whether or not Campbell is real in MGS 2. Is he real up until a certain point or is he all AI?

 

[Manmademan]

Yes, FOXDIE. That's why when Liquid Ocelot triggered the soliders' nanomachines in the trailer, Snake was affected as well.

FOXDIE is NOT nanomachines. FOXDIE is a virus, specifically designed to target those with certain genetic codes (Baker, Octopus, Liquid, a few others) And it's airborne.

Nanomachines are machines, and blood injected.

 

[MickeyKnox]

I think there needs to be a distinction between the Philosophers and the Patriots - they aren't the same.

The Patriots were born at the end of Portable Ops, the Philosophers ended shortly after WW2 when they started fighting with themselves and disbanded - only the $100 billion remained. At least thats what I think happened.

The Patriots are the secret society equivalent of the "spiritual sequel" to the Philosophers.

 

[Saterium]

I love these kinds of discussions. That being said. I'm still pretty fuzzy on whether or not Campbell is real in MGS 2. Is he real up until a certain point or is he all AI?

In MGS2 he is 100% AI, controlled by Arsenal Gear and somehow by the Patriots.

 

[dralla]

I love these kinds of discussions. That being said. I'm still pretty fuzzy on whether or not Campbell is real in MGS 2. Is he real up until a certain point or is he all AI?

he's in the MGS4 trailer. he was not in MGS2, that was just the GW system.

 

[Manmademan]

I love these kinds of discussions. That being said. I'm still pretty fuzzy on whether or not Campbell is real in MGS 2. Is he real up until a certain point or is he all AI?

The Campbell in MGS2 was AI.

 

[widgetraf]

I love these kinds of discussions. That being said. I'm still pretty fuzzy on whether or not Campbell is real in MGS 2. Is he real up until a certain point or is he all AI?

AI. he got bugged out when the computer was given the virus.

 

[Umino]

Well technically yeah, also remember that the only human parts of his new body are his head and spine.

He's gone cyborg.

I told you he never had a dick. Who would give it up?

 

[MickeyKnox]

I love these kinds of discussions. That being said. I'm still pretty fuzzy on whether or not Campbell is real in MGS 2. Is he real up until a certain point or is he all AI?

Campbell was NEVER in MGS2, it was the Patriot's AI the whole time.

 

[JB1981]

Yes, FOXDIE. That's why when Liquid Ocelot triggered the soliders' nanomachines in the trailer, Snake was affected as well.

So FOXDIE is a control mechanism created by The Patriots? I mean, why do all those footsoldiers have foxdie as well? Is that what they're referring to when they talk about full battlefield control?

edit: guess not.

 

[SRG01]

It seems like some of your confusion is stemming from not understanding what happened in Metal Gear 1 (NOT solid) and Metal Gear 2. (NOT MGS2.)

There's a HUGE amount of backstory there, including Big Boss turning on the US and creating outer heaven (MG) and snake killing both big boss AND his friend/world's greatest soldier in MG2.

This is how he came to be known as a "legendary soldier" by MGS.

Also, Solid Snake is not big boss' "son" per se- he and liquid (and the genome soldiers? I'm not sure) are all clones of some sort based on Big Boss' DNA. The cloning process is unstable, which is why Snake is aging rapidly in MGS4.

IIRC, it's heavily implied

Spoiler

in MGSO that the genome soldier genes came from Null/Gray Fox.. I think

.

 

[MickeyKnox]

I told you he never had a dick. Who would give it up?

My guess is that his woman and his kid are brutally killed and he goes from homoerotic Raiden back to crazy homocidal Jack. (at least mentally)

 

[dralla]

FoxDie is the "poison" that's killing Snake. Naomi injected him because she thought he killed her parents.

 

[Umino]

My guess is that his woman and his kid are brutally killed and he goes from homoerotic Raiden back to crazy homocidal Jack. (at least mentally)

Didn't he marry Olga and then steal her baby who turned out to be Naked Snake's legitimate child from the future?

 

[JB1981]

FoxDie is the "poison" that's killing Snake. Naomi injected him because she thought he killed her parents.

so then why are all the other soldiers vomiting and throwing up in the MGS 4 trailer? They've been injected as well?

 

[Johnas]

It all happens, it's just all staged. With the exception of Snake and Otacon showing up and I believe Fatman's actions. (I might be wrong about Fatman?)

Ocelot says in the ending that they had to agree to bring Peter Stillman aboard (the bomb defusing expert dude) in order to persuade Fatman to participate in the whole charade. Apparently he was afraid of the place actually exploding if Raiden failed to defuse all the bombs, but with Stillman there as a backup he felt OK about it and agreed.

 

[Sallokin]

FoxDie is the "poison" that's killing Snake. Naomi injected him because she thought he killed her parents.

Wait. I thought FOXDIE wasn't killing him. It killed Liquid, but for some reason didn't have an effect on Solid. I remember there being something at the end of MGS1 where she's talking about not knowing if it will in fact kill him. I really need to go back and play through these again.

 

[Manmademan]

FoxDie is the "poison" that's killing Snake. Naomi injected him because she thought he killed her parents.

not exactly. you people need to play MGS again.

Snake was never expected to actually be able to stop Liquid and Foxhound in MGS1. SO, he was injected with Foxdie, a virus that seeks out certain targets based on their genome, so that just by being able to be NEAR certain targets (Baker, Liquid, Octopus, a few others) it would kill them. Essentially, he was a walking virus factory.

This is why some people who came in contact with snake died instantly (baker, octopus) and some had no ill effects at all. (Ocelot, Meryl, Otacon)

What Naomi DID was alter the virus- it's not known whether Foxdie was originally intended to kill Snake as well, and Naomi was deliberately vague on how much time Snake had left before Foxdie did him in, if at all.

 

[Johnas]

Wait. I thought FOXDIE wasn't killing him. It killed Liquid, but for some reason didn't have an effect on Solid. I remember there being something at the end of MGS1 where she's talking about not knowing if it will in fact kill him. I really need to go back and play through these again.

IIrc she randomizes one of the elements, so that it's unknown when it will actually kill him. Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[urk]

It's not an issue. Kojima shouldn't have to tone down the story just because alot of people can't comprehend it.

Yes, the mark of a great story is mass confusion! The plot is very muddled and hard to digest. Good thing it's been tied to brilliant gameplay.

 

[dralla]

Naomi tells Snake he has 6 months to live, I think that would imply that the FoxDie was meant to kill him.

And I just said that Snake was sent to infect the people with FoxDie so the US could take the Metal Gear

The US didn't hand over his body because Snake was there to infect everyone with FoxDie so they could take the Metal Gear for themselves

 

[Blader]

Wait. I thought FOXDIE wasn't killing him. It killed Liquid, but for some reason didn't have an effect on Solid. I remember there being something at the end of MGS1 where she's talking about not knowing if it will in fact kill him. I really need to go back and play through these again.

FOXDIE was programmed to kill people with a certain genetic code. Naomi thought the ultimate revenge would be to program Snake's genetic code into the virus as a wildcard value. Snake would have to live in fear for the rest of his life because the virus could kill him at any random time.

Liquid shares the same DNA as Snake, which is why FOXDIE doesn't kill him when Liquid is immediately infected. It kills him at a random time - it just so happened that random time was at the game's ending.

 

[MickeyKnox]

So FOXDIE is a control mechanism created by The Patriots? I mean, why do all those footsoldiers have foxdie as well? Is that what they're referring to when they talk about full battlefield control?

edit: guess not.

The nano-machines that are a part of every soldier's body in MGS4 are technology that was based off of the original nano-machines used in the FoxDie virus. FoxDie itself is like the nano tech equivalent of HIV, Snake was supposed to be used as a Typhoid Mary to give the virus to all the important figures of the Shadow Moses incident, but Naomi programed it to infect him too. (You never meet the "real" Naomi, the one in game is someone out for revenge against Snake, believing he killed her parents and caused her "brother" Frank/GrayFox's death.)

 

[Blader]

Naomi tells Snake he has 6 months to live, I think that would imply that the FoxDie was meant to kill him.

No. Snake has six months to live because of his aging cells. Nobody knows when FOXDIE will kill Snake.

 

[mug]

yes but how does this happen? its just a hand..? its one detail ive never really been able to understand

Well that's more of a Japanese belief in transplant operations - which aren't very common over there. Some believe that the limbs, organs, etc are accompanied by the memories and traits of the original owner.

 

[Umino]

I think the next MGS should be set in Colonial times with Big Boss's great great great great grandfather assisting the real patriots. Also he's a clone from the future. And you can blow up Ben Franklin.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Yes, the mark of a great story is mass confusion! The plot is very muddled and hard to digest. Good thing it's been tied to brilliant gameplay.

Except it's not. Some people (like Ether_Snake and myself) get it right away, there are a ton of deeper more subtle connections that can be drawn out form really sitting down and analysing the story but it's in no way a knowck against the game.

The point being made is that MGS4 is the conclusion to the MGS storyline, therefore it should cater to the real fans of the series more so than Joe Shmo who takes one gander at it and decides is waaay to complicated for him.

 

[dralla]

No. Snake has six months to live because of his aging cells. Nobody knows when FOXDIE will kill Snake.

Why would Snake ask Naomi how long he has to live? He asks her because she altered the FoxDie in the first place, she's the only one who would know. She also said "any normal man would be dead by now", also implying the decaying is from the FoxDie. And Snake injecting himself, maybe with a serum? I was always under the impression it's the FoxDie that's doing the damage