• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Needle Drop pioneered music reviews. His other channel was for the alt-rights

Ok I'm bored:

Here's him calling "SJWs" and White Nationalists both sides of the same coin

JqFZd4U.png

We good yet?

Btw Blair White is yet another anti-feminist just fyi....

And apparently criticizing her saying she doesn't care about race makes you an SJW which in turn makes you just like a white nationalist....
 
Ok I'm bored:

Here's him calling "SJWs" and White Nationalists both sides of the same coin



We good yet?

Btw Blair White is yet another anti-feminist just fyi....

I cannot tell if that is satire or not? But it is a problem, I agree.


But if it's not been brought up, this right here is a genuine problem.

I think it was Ekai in a different thread who brought up the satire paradox;

From episode 10 of Malcom Gladwells podcast; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpnL0P1_qUc


It's really good!
 
"hey guys I don't really like him much but here's an essay I wrote about him."

This fucking thread.
I do like him, I think he's funny and interesting to listen to.
I said I'm not a super-fan which I was labeled as.
There's a difference between liking him and not being a super-fan.
I'm more interested in the ideological discussion this brings out rather than solely defending him.
 
Ok I'm bored:

Here's him calling "SJWs" and White Nationalists both sides of the same coin

JqFZd4U.png


We good yet?

Btw Blair White is yet another anti-feminist just fyi....

And apparently criticizing her saying she doesn't care about race makes you an SJW which in turn makes you just like a white nationalist....

Jeez louise.
 
I cannot tell if that is satire or not? But it is a problem, I agree.


But if it's not been brought up, this right here is a genuine problem.

I think it was Ekai in a different thread who brought up the satire paradox;

From episode 10 of Malcom Gladwells podcast; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpnL0P1_qUc


It's really good!

Dude like a bunch of us have said how useless satirical bigotry is because it's basically just indistinguishable from the real thing.

Why would it be satire.... He literally made an anti SJW video with a bunch of legit bigots?
 
Dude like a bunch of us have said how useless satirical bigotry is because it's basically just indistinguishable from the real thing.

Why would it be satire.... He literally made an anti SJW video with a bunch of legit bigots?

Good Point.


But I disagree about being indistinguishable. Satirical bigotry is not indistinguishable from the real thing. The Colbert Report and South Park are indistinguishable from a hate speech rally.



At the same time, I think "it's just" satire is being as a deflection is a weak defense. You should always be allowed to set the record straight; You should be able to explain yourself without being dogpiled in a witch hunt. But at the same time, you are responsible for your own communication.

And I do think satire gets caught in the middel a lot of the time. It is problematic. That is something where my own viewed have moved on. But it's too extreme to say the colbert is the equivalent to hate speech because it satirizes bigoted thoughts and ideas.
 

nynt9

Member
Man, people really like to bring up the Colbert thing. I remember when I first broke out and gamergate was constantly using it as a talking point about the hypocrisy of the left or something. Seems like it's still going.
 

Ozigizo

Member
I mean, let's face it. This guy is friends with a bunch of questionable people he attempted to go to bat for in his apology video. Sure, he may be liberal, but he can't even disavow them.

He's not playing 4D chess here in pointing out some profound political issues, he just wants to keep his friends.
 
Good Point.


But I disagree about being indistinguishable. Satirical bigotry is not indistinguishable from the real thing. The Colbert Report and South Park are indistinguishable from a hate speech rally.



At the same time, I think "it's just" satire is being as a deflection is a weak defense. You should always be allowed to set the record straight; You should be able to explain yourself without being dogpiled in a witch hunt. But at the same time, you are responsible for your own communication.

And I do think satire gets caught in the middel a lot of the time. It is problematic. That is something where my own viewed have moved on. But it's too extreme to say the colbert is the equivalent to hate speech because it satirizes bigoted thoughts and ideas.

Spoilers in all his 21 minutes he just skipped right over the video he did with Sargon and AA (rolled his eyes as if he didn't even need to address it)
 
And this matters because?

The intention matters? Is he saying that both are absed on ideology, tribal groupings? Is he equating that they are equal? I don't know. I genuinely cannot detect from that tweet how serious is or what he means. specifically.



He willingly did a video with Sargon and Amazing athiest and Chris Ray Gun and a bunch of other really horrific people where he told feminists to drink bleach.

Sounds like a shitty thing to say. But I am saying there is A LOT of anti-alt-right videos where he defends feminism.


Spoilers in all his 21 minutes he just skipped right over the video he did with Sargon and AA (rolled his eyes as if he didn't even need to address it)

I don't disagree. It's suspicious.



Why jump to satire? Anthony Fantano isn't Andy Kaufman where he's satirical and joking at every single point that you can't take him at face value.

He frequently uses insane, absurd language, multiple characters and a bunch of other shit. I ask because you interpretate a twitter statement in countless ways.




Man, people really like to being up the Colbert thing. I remember when I first broke out and gamergate was constantly using it as a talking point about the hypocrisy of the left or something. Seems like it's still going.

Not really. South Park, Bill Maher, Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Dave Rubin, Stewart. Take your pick.
I mention Colbert because he is the subject of the satirical paradox podcast, not because I care one way or the other about the example.
 
I mean, let's face it. This guy is friends with a bunch of questionable people he attempted to go to bat for in his apology video. Sure, he may be liberal, but he can't even disavow them.

He's not playing 4D chess here in pointing out some profound political issues, he just wants to keep his friends.

I think excelsiorlef did a lot better of a job bringing this to the table than the article.



I don't understand why he'd care. He is bigger than any of them. If he wants to be their friends, what is the purpose of that? He has a larger audience, he doesn't need them. I don't get the connection. Because you'd thinks they would want to be friends when he makes videos like this ??
 
I don't think Fantano is alt-right, and the Fader article is mostly garbage, but his associations with some of these scumbags warrants a side eye from me. That stuff is not the same as a "difference of opinion."
 

JKM78613

Neo Member
If you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions to deduce whether something is satire or not, it ain’t effective satire.

And that’s kinda the point: bad satire is just as effective at undermining itself as it is being a good joke for those that do get it.
 

Ozigizo

Member
I don't understand why he'd care. He is bigger than any of them. If he wants to be their friends, what is the purpose of that? He has a larger audience, he doesn't need them. I don't get the connection. Because you'd thinks they would want to be friends when he makes videos like this ??

Nobody knows but him. He had nothing to lose in calling them on their shit, except, he didn't. Amazing Atheist and Sargon aren't exactly folks you'd want to keep company with, but for some reason, he doesn't seem to see the issue. And I agree, the article didn't do nearly enough in pointing out the questionable company he keeps.
 
If you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions to deduce whether something is satire or not, it ain’t effective satire.

And that’s kinda the point: bad satire is just as effective at undermining itself as it is being a good joke for those that do get it.
Pretty much.
 
If you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions to deduce whether something is satire or not, it ain’t effective satire.

And that’s kinda the point: bad satire is just as effective at undermining itself as it is being a good joke for those that do get it.

Is this true? I'm sitting here thinking about if what we would consider great or effective satire to be obvious.

Particular this monologue from Louis CK (very offensive bit about abortion). I've seen it several times, and it still confuses. I don't think it's obvious at all what he is trying to say (or rather what his opinion was), but at the same time, it's a thought provoking routine. But it's also said inside a comedy club to an audience who knows the comedy will be extremely offensive.
 

Aselith

Member
Is this true? I'm sitting here thinking about if what we would consider great or effective satire to be obvious.

Particular this monologue from Louis CK (very offensive bit about abortion). I've seen it several times, and it still confuses. I don't think it's obvious at all what he is trying to say (or rather what his opinion was), but at the same time, it's a thought provoking routine. But it's also said inside a comedy club to an audience who knows the comedy will be extremely offensive.

The problem, at least in part, is that Fantano has been making the anti-SJWs "schtick" his life's mission. He makes repeated videos against SJWs, he hangs out with anti-SJWs, his Twitter is filled with anti-SJW messages. He either needs to get real and admit what he is or he needs to get some new fucking material.

The other problem is that if you live the anti-SJW schtick all the time, at some point it's indistinguishable from reality so it no longer matters that you had your fingers crossed the whole time. Fantano passed that long ago.

CK was doing a bit and he did it and moved on with his life. The joke there was to present the arguments of both sides in the most extreme way possible and then play around in that space with a little of his typical shock humor thrown in. I don't think he even had a point other than joking about it. However, in his best material, individual material will play into a larger theme so maybe he had a point that is missed due to not being the whole act?
 

phanphare

Banned
just watched his response video and having never really seen the content on his other channel (and thus taking the fader article on its word) I'd have to say that fantano completely demolished that article point for point. kind of a shitty ass article to think back on now.
 
just watched his response video and having never really seen the content on his other channel (and thus taking the fader article on its word) I'd have to say that fantano completely demolished that article point for point. kind of a shitty ass article to think back on now.

agreed. Thought it was a great response
 

Ekai

Member
just watched his response video and having never really seen the content on his other channel (and thus taking the fader article on its word) I'd have to say that fantano completely demolished that article point for point. kind of a shitty ass article to think back on now.

He didn't demolish anything... Hell he skipped over the part he said was most important and the truly damning parts of it.
 

7Th

Member
People will just listen to what they want to listen, believing their "heroes" are more important than the truth.
 

phanphare

Banned
He didn't demolish anything... Hell he skipped over the part he said was most important and the truly damning parts of it.

yeah I disagree, he went point for point with the article showing how it was poorly framed, explained why, showed receipts, provided receipts on things the article conveniently left out, and yeah the part that he deemed most important was certainly not skipped over. he even linked the 3 different versions of the article from the fader that they seemingly edited without providing an editor's note.

I think "demolished" is apt
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
You can be for Bernie Sanders and also be an incredibly hateful fuck. These two things are not mutually exclusive.

From the compilation videos I've seen of this guy, he seems to be more focused on the anti-trans, anti-feminist side of the alt-right as opposed to being on the anti-BLM or anti-non-white side.
 

Ekai

Member
yeah I disagree, he went point for point with the article showing how it was poorly framed, explained why, showed receipts, provided receipts on things the article conveniently left out, and yeah the part that he deemed most important was certainly not skipped over. he even linked the 3 different versions of the article from the fader that they seemingly edited without providing an editor's note.

I think "demolished" is apt

He quite literally skips over the most important bit. Actually fucking read the topic, especially excelsior's posts highlighting all of this, or keep staning for a guy who clearly is happy to say and associate himself with alt-righters. He's been in deep with them for years, surprised it only just comes up now.
 
The amount of times he said "mainstream media" in that response video is a red flag imo.
All these Youtubers (H3H3, Philip DeFranco, Pewdiepie, Jake Paul, and now Anthony Fantano) sure love peddling this persecution complex of old media vs them.
 

Hesh

Member
Just watched his response video. I'm not a fan of Fantano for the same reason I'm not a fan of Pitchfork or any other "esteemed" music review: I don't think musical tastes translate well from one person to another, let alone from one person to thousands of other people. That being said, I went into this thread blind, read the Fader article a couple days ago and thought "Wow, Fantano sure is a piece of shit". After watching the response video, though, he pretty much uses surgical precision to cut down a lot of what Ezra Marcus wrote, virtually removing any and all credibility Marcus had. That article is pure garbage, and if Ezra Marcus has a journalism degree then his former professors must be crying right now.

That being said, this thread also enlightened me on the metric shit ton of abhorrent shit Fantano has wrote on his Twitter account. So while he's a victim (relatively-speaking) of a libelous hitpiece that Fader should seriously consider removing if Fantano pursues legal action, Fantano also has said some awful shit on Twitter and deserves to be cut down for it. The problem here is that Ezra Marcus wasn't the credible messenger to bring that wrath down on Fantano, and as such, has failed miserably at it and only has helped garner sympathy for Fantano from outsiders (such as myself, although I've since educated myself on what kind of person Fantano is, something I don't expect of many outsiders to this issue).
 
Just watched his response video. I'm not a fan of Fantano for the same reason I'm not a fan of Pitchfork or any other "esteemed" music review: I don't think musical tastes translate well from one person to another, let alone from one person to thousands of other people. That being said, I went into this thread blind, read the Fader article a couple days ago and thought "Wow, Fantano sure is a piece of shit". After watching the response video, though, he pretty much uses surgical precision to cut down a lot of what Ezra Marcus wrote, virtually removing any and all credibility Marcus had. That article is pure garbage, and if Ezra Marcus has a journalism degree then his former professors must be crying right now.

That being said, this thread also enlightened me on the metric shit ton of abhorrent shit Fantano has wrote on his Twitter account. So while he's a victim (relatively-speaking) of a libelous hitpiece that Fader should seriously consider removing if Fantano pursues legal action, Fantano also has said some awful shit on Twitter and deserves to be cut down for it. The problem here is that Ezra Marcus wasn't the credible messenger to bring that wrath down on Fantano, and as such, has failed miserably at it and only has helped garner sympathy for Fantano from outsiders (such as myself, although I've since educated myself on what kind of person Fantano is, something I don't expect of many outsiders to this issue).

He'd lose a lawsuit, mostly because Fantano believe he was being called Alt-right, but that never actually happened so I'd almost guarantee you that would be the focus of the lawsuit (because it sure as shit was the focus of the video)

The Fader article isn't the best but he's not surgical at all on any of the issues regarding his associations with Hyde, Sargon and Amazing Athiest (in fact he literally doesn't even address the video he did with AA and Sargon... which was part of the article).... Literally the part of his video he called the most important he side steps basically everything.

And look given that he was able to just laugh off the video he made with serial harassers and no one cared I doubt the article being not that great is why he's emerging unscathed.

Also a lot of the shit I dug up is actually in the article.
 

Hesh

Member
He'd lose a lawsuit, mostly because Fantano believe he was being called Alt-right, but that never actually happened so I'd almost guarantee you that would be the focus of the lawsuit (because it sure as shit was the focus of the video)

The Fader article isn't the best but he's not surgical at all on any of the issues regarding his associations with Hyde, Sargon and Amazing Athiest (in fact he literally doesn't even address the video he did with AA and Sargon... which was part of the article).... Literally the part of his video he called the most important he side steps basically everything.

And look given that he was able to just laugh off the video he made with serial harassers and no one cared I doubt the article being not that great is why he's emerging unscathed.

Also a lot of the shit I dug up is actually in the article.

The case would depend entirely on how Fantano's business is affected in the aftermath. If his income takes a hit then he pretty much has the holy trinity of a defamation suit: a third-party published the piece (it wasn't written by Marcus on his own blog, an editor et al. signed off on it), he pointed out the falsehoods in the article with great detail in the response video and description alone (but could certainly go into further detail for a court of law), and loss of income brought about specifically after the publication of the article.

The article was a misfire. Someone tasked with taking down and/or exposing Fantano should have taken much more care on the matter to make sure this sort of mess couldn't so easily happen. This thread proves that Fantano himself has provided virtually all of the ammo you needed via his Twitter timeline alone.
 
The case would depend entirely on how Fantano's business is affected in the aftermath. If his income takes a hit then he pretty much has the holy trinity of a defamation suit: a third-party published the piece (it wasn't written by Marcus on his own blog, an editor et al. signed off on it), he pointed out the falsehoods in the article with great detail in the response video and description alone (but could certainly go into further detail for a court of law), and loss of income brought about specifically after the publication of the article.

The article was a misfire. Someone tasked with taking down and/or exposing Fantano should have taken much more care on the matter to make sure this sort of mess couldn't so easily happen. This thread proves that Fantano himself has provided virtually all of the ammo you needed via his Twitter timeline alone.

Actual malice probably applies here as Fantano is a celebrity,and he can't deny that, there are articles after articles calling him the most popular music reviewer for example

With actual malice he'd have to prove the author knew it was false or acted with reckless disregard... The article is not great but the crux of the story: Fantano's side channel appeal to the alt right is not necessarily false and in fact in my own research I've seen a good number of tweets and reddit posts from in and around the time (and after) he started the meme channel that all express concern and disappointment that Fantano was doing things that seemed to appeal to that sort of alt-right audience. Some of the examples were not the best, but his association with known anti-feminists, known bigots, his defense of them, and even for example when Sam Hyde expressed his approval of the video he did with Amazing Athiest and Sargon and Fantano accepted that thanks would work against him. All these can be used to show that while potentially not all the examples are the best, the general thesis cannot be proven to be so clearly false that the author knew it or was reckless about it.

Some of Fantano's own words can be used to undercut a libel lawsuit. He himself claims the biggest issue was the part on Sam Hyde where he's accused of laughing... which he did, now he claims it's nervous laughter (which maybe it is) but he'd have to prove that there is no way the author could have thought it was anything else, and good luck with that, especially when in the video he defends Hyde's comment as it being just a joke and I can find a video of Fantano calling Hyde a comedic genius who he has no problems associating himself with despite having different opinions (which in the video is literally Hyde financially giving aid to the Daily Stormer, a neonazi website). He'd probably try to point to the rape element of the Hyde story too, but the defense to that is that "nailed" is absolutely a word often used to describe sex and that the author of the article did relatively quickly take it out (that and the "joke" is still about horrific assault and murder of Lena Dunahm so the rape element doesn't fundamentally alter the horrific nature of the joke).

He's also wrong that there was no way he could have known about Sam Hyde's political beliefs, that's not true as there were stories out there about him, about what the racist stunt he pulled at Yale for example, that and in 2017 Fantano defends associating himself with Hyde regardless so you can't even argue he wouldn't have done it had he known.

He can't even fully claim satire as a defense of anyone calling his videos sincere, because he made at least one video that was decisively not satirical (the one with AA and Sargon and a bunch of folks who are on the record as anti-feminists, virulent bigots, etc... )where he told feminists to rink bleach) so how can anyone who watches that then be faulted for believing that his other videos might not be satirical (and despite what he says a few them at least are definitely not satirizing the anti-feminist and are for more targeted at feminists themselves)

Libel is not an easy case to win as a public figure, and there is plenty of evidence that works against Fantano.

Especially again, because Fantano's main argument in defense is that he was called alt-right and that he's not alt-right, but the article never calls him that at all.
 

Ash735

Member
What a complete mess of a situation. You don't have to like the guy but then there's articles like this which puts journalism to shame. It seems like if someone is a threat or getting too big then throwing out articles insinuating that said person has Alt-Right links seems to be the go to and people eat that up.
 

Ekai

Member
What a complete mess of a situation. You don't have to like the guy but then there's articles like this which puts journalism to shame. It seems like if someone is a threat or getting too big then throwing out articles insinuating that said person has Alt-Right links seems to be the go to and people eat that up.

It's not an insinuation. He flat out does have alt right ties. Which he actively tries to sweep under the rug. Why defend it?
 

klonere

Banned
They did.

Mike didn't even want to be there and thought even discussing it was stupid lmao

Kinda ruined the entire conversation~!

Whatever, it's what I expected. This will all be forgotten in a month because our brains are now incapable of dealing with the constant onslaught of horrors that is 2017.
 
I'm so confused. So he is at the same time some form of alt-right figure while also being liberal?

I'm still trying to work my way through everything so I don't want to come across as defending him or his connections or what have you...clearly I'm trying to better inform myself...but if one of the most important talking points in the discussion is how satire, even ones based on memes, is somehow equivalent to subtlety actually agreeing with the thing being made fun of then I'm going to get a headache trying to wrap my head around that.

There's a lot to get through so I hope y'all cut me a little slack, but seeing some of the responses is really making it difficult to fully understand the debate.
 

Very interesting to hear their thoughts. I'm halfway through it. I love these guys! I actually discovered them due to Fantano. Mike says "I told you all that weird meme shit would get him in trouble".
5-10 years ago it was not like this; People could hide behind any meme they wanted with little repercussion. We might go into an era where people won't let memes slide anymore just because they are shitposts.

I notice this on imgur. I browse the front page, and I see these weird "dump" compilations of twitter / tumblr / 4chan / 9gag / facebook / reddit content all mixed in- so you can just watch the dump posts on imgur and get big collections of all the funny stuff, and you see things sneak in as memes that look like bigotry disguised as memes.
Particularly with the "black twitter" memes where I wonder if they are really made by black people. Anyone can go in and appropriate a meme and pretend to be black to get away with making a fucked post/meme. It seems suspicious:I



"If I just keep laughing through it, it doesn't matter what I say!"

Come on man.

Yeah, reading it now, I see it.



The problem, at least in part, is that Fantano has been making the anti-SJWs "schtick" his life's mission. He makes repeated videos against SJWs, he hangs out with anti-SJWs, his Twitter is filled with anti-SJW messages. He either needs to get real and admit what he is or he needs to get some new fucking material.

The other problem is that if you live the anti-SJW schtick all the time, at some point it's indistinguishable from reality so it no longer matters that you had your fingers crossed the whole time. Fantano passed that long ago.

CK was doing a bit and he did it and moved on with his life. The joke there was to present the arguments of both sides in the most extreme way possible and then play around in that space with a little of his typical shock humor thrown in. I don't think he even had a point other than joking about it. However, in his best material, individual material will play into a larger theme so maybe he had a point that is missed due to not being the whole act?

Don't know enough about his material to say this either way, but what you're saying sounds true. I know enough anecdotes about the amazing atheist to know that he is not just anti-SJW and radical feminism, but genuinely seems to hate women, and I don't know why someone like him is worthy to defend just because he isn't alt right. He is still an asshole.


In his reviews on the needledrop, Anthony doesn't strike me as anti-feminist at all. On the contrary. The way he talks about female artists, about feminist politics on various artists. So what's the deal- He sounds so reasonable and articulate in his reviews, and then he has this all other anti-sjw meme shit? Do you think there is a space between being hateful towards women, and just being knee jerked by tumblr feminists?
 
Top Bottom