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The Right does better when a country is doing well from left wing policies?

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Article: http://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism

On November 20, less than two weeks after Donald Trump’s upset win, Bernie Sanders strode onto a stage at Boston’s Berklee Performance Center to give the sold-out audience his thoughts on what had gone so disastrously wrong for the Democratic Party.

Sanders had a simple answer. Democrats, he said, needed to field candidates who would unapologetically promise that they would be willing “to stand up with the working class of this country and ... take on big-money interests.”

Democrats, in other words, would only be able to defeat Trump and others like him if they adopted an anti-corporate, unabashedly left-wing policy agenda. The answer to Trump’s right-wing populism, Sanders argued, was for the left to develop a populism of its own.


“[It’s] a kind of liberal myth,” Pippa Norris, a Harvard political scientist who studies populism in the United States and Europe, says of the Sanders analysis. “[Liberals] want to have a reason why people are supporting populist parties when their values are so clearly against progressive values in terms of misogyny, sexism, racism.”

The problem is that a lot of data suggests that countries with more robust welfare states tend to have stronger far-right movements. Providing white voters with higher levels of economic security does not tamp down their anxieties about race and immigration — or, more precisely, it doesn’t do it powerfully enough. For some, it frees them to worry less about what it’s in their wallet and more about who may be moving into their neighborhoods or competing with them for jobs

The bigger issue is that America’s welfare state is weak for the same fundamental reason that Donald Trump captured the Republican nomination in the first place: racial and cultural resentment. That profoundly complicates efforts to make left-wing populism successful in America.

In 2001, three scholars at Harvard and Dartmouth — Alberto Alesina, Edward Glaeser, and Bruce Sacerdote — found that the higher the percentage of black residents in a state, the less its government spent on welfare payments

This, they hypothesized, was not an accident. People are only willing to support redistribution if they believe their tax dollars are going to people they can sympathize with. White voters, in other words, don’t want to spend their tax dollars on programs that they think will benefit black or Hispanic people

Just read this when I woke up. This whole paradox is a big problem where the right grows as left wing policies become successful, and honestly I have no real answer to any of this. I was also pretty surprise at how we already have a model to look at with European countries and ignored it during the election. Bernie's rhetoric if continued can destroy the Democratic Party or worse. So idk. Discuss away.
 
Just like in the UK where apparently the National Health Service is so tucking important people will leave the EU to save it (lol...* sigh), yet the voters will do nothing but vote in governments whos sole goal in government is to cut the living daylights out of every budget till it barely functions. Including the NHS.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I think that "look how well racist populism just did! If we run on socialist populism we'll do so well! After all our message is so much better!" is really misguided. It just...it just seems to ignore a lot of realities about the American electorate
 

LakeEarth

Member
I've pointed this out before, but the US has been in a 30-year cycle of electing Republicans after the Democrats fixed the economy that they previously fucked up. Such short memories.
 
I think that "look how well racist populism just did! If we run on socialist populism we'll do so well! After all our message is so much better!" is really misguided. It just...it just seems to ignore a lot of realities about the American electorate

It ignores the realities on the national level, but not at the local and state level. I think Social Democratic policy platforms can win in New England and the West Coast, I doubt that is the case everywhere else though.
 
I think that "look how well racist populism just did! If we run on socialist populism we'll do so well! After all our message is so much better!" is really misguided. It just...it just seems to ignore a lot of realities about the American electorate

agreed. So how do we change our message to reach those uhh "racist" voters since we can't tackle them from the same fashion as the GOP?

I've pointed this out before, but the US has been in a 30-year cycle of electing Republicans after the Democrats fixed the economy. Such short memories.

Definitely true. How do you go about creating a political message that lets people know that, while also tackling our inherent need to hurt ourselves so that our neighbors don't get shit because they're black or Hispanic etc?

Just like in the UK where apparently the National Health Service is so tucking important people will leave the EU to save it (lol...* sigh), yet the voters will do nothing but vote in governments whos sole goal in government is to cut the living daylights out of every budget till it barely functions. Including the NHS.

The whole brexit situation I honestly still don't comprehend it happened.
 
More or less parroting what the article said, but I think conservatism tends to gain power when a country is doing well. When the country is okay and the average (white) voter is well enough off, they can focus more on "keeping what's theirs" and "values," and less on the economy, infrastructure etc.. This leads to them voting on more "wedge issues" -- like abortion, human rights, welfare etc..

Because I personally think conservatism doesn't work well in the long run, the resultant cutting of taxes and regulation creates a small bubble, which bursts within a few years. Once the cuts and cultural oppression of the right gets bad enough, the left finally wins the government back in a counter landslide, and starts to repair things.

This all leads back to square one in a few years.
 
Wasn't austerity (the exact opposite of "doing well from left wing policies") kind of a big deal in various European countries ever since the 2008 recession? And of course, it's not like people like Blair were radical leftists or something. That seems to throw a wrench into this viewpoint. Those "left-wing policies" have been picked apart whenever possible in the name of apparent growth and prosperity.

They're obviously still left-wing compared to the US, but that's because they had more solid left-wing structures to start from.

And either way, even accepting the argument that a strong welfare state doesn't prevent right-wing movements...well, at least we'd have guaranteed health insurance and college educations. It's like the climate change argument. Even if we did accept the idea that humans don't primarily cause climate change, it's not like the benefits of the policies aimed at fighting it suddenly cease to exist.
 

Steel

Banned
I've pointed this out before, but the US has been in a 30-year cycle of electing Republicans after the Democrats fixed the economy that they previously fucked up. Such short memories.

It's very easy to see why there's a cycle. Republicans are in charge, they lower tax rates unsustainabily and get rid of government programs. Democrats are in charge, they get rid of the lower tax rates and put the government programs back in place. Then people realize that they liked the tax breaks and re-elect republicans. Then people realize that they like government programs and re-elect democrats. And on.
 

Nelo Ice

Banned
People want "change" rather than stability. All governments get stale after 2-3 election cycles it seems, even good ones.

Yep I will never understand it. It's like well I'm tired of this haircut time to get new one. People take that logic to government and that's how we got a psycopath in charge. Apparently nothing good will ever last since people get tired of good things lol. I can only imagine if we somehow ever got single player that voters would vote in Republicans again because they're tired of having single player.
 

kirblar

Member
Wasn't austerity (the exact opposite of "doing well from left wing policies") kind of a big deal in various European countries ever since the 2008 recession? And of course, it's not like people like Blair were radical leftists or something. That seems to throw a wrench into this viewpoint. Those "left-wing policies" have been picked apart whenever possible in the name of apparent growth and prosperity.

They're obviously still left-wing compared to the US, but that's because they had more solid left-wing structures to start from.

And either way, even accepting the argument that a strong welfare state doesn't prevent right-wing movements...well, at least we'd have guaranteed health insurance and college educations. It's like the climate change argument. Even if we did accept the idea that humans don't primarily cause climate change, it's not like the benefits of the policies aimed at fighting it suddenly cease to exist.
"Austerity" was trying to solve a financial crisis in smaller countries (Greece, Spain,etc) without hurting the bottom line of their creditors in more dominant countries.

It is/was super stupid and short sighted and it worked just as well as the initial response to the Great Depression (that is to say, not at all.)
 

Ogodei

Member
The decline of the social democrats is understandable: on the one hand they reacted to Thatcherism and its equivalents by tacking towards neoliberalism, eroding some of their base's enthusiasm. On the other hand, the success of capitalism after the Treinte Gloriouses had diminished the appeal of socially-conscious parties.

The New Gilded Age is bringing back the perceived need for hard-left parties, when that need never really vanished.
 
People want "change" rather than stability. All governments get stale after 2-3 election cycles it seems, even good ones.
The problem with this is that it doesn't really hold up to the facts. More people voted for Clinton, who was more in line with stability over change. Trump won the Presidency because of a few states that barely tipped over to Republican. Those few states were places ignored by Clinton's campaign. This doesn't really point to a narrative where American en masse voted for upheaval and removal of the status quo.

Sure, a large part of Trump's popularity with his base stems from being the big change candidate but it doesn't hold up across the board.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Wasn't austerity (the exact opposite of "doing well from left wing policies") kind of a big deal in various European countries ever since the 2008 recession? And of course, it's not like people like Blair were radical leftists or something. That seems to throw a wrench into this viewpoint. Those "left-wing policies" have been picked apart whenever possible in the name of apparent growth and prosperity.

They're obviously still left-wing compared to the US, but that's because they had more solid left-wing structures to start from.

And either way, even accepting the argument that a strong welfare state doesn't prevent right-wing movements...well, at least we'd have guaranteed health insurance and college educations. It's like the climate change argument. Even if we did accept the idea that humans don't primarily cause climate change, it's not like the benefits of the policies aimed at fighting it suddenly cease to exist.
The complete disaster that is Corbyn's Labour is a very bad sign. I wasn't even aware of it completely.

Corbyn’s platform was a return to the Labour ideals of the 1970s and ’80s. The BBC has an excellent rundown of his policy proposals, which included, among other things, renationalizing Britain's railroads, abolishing tuition for British universities, and imposing rent controls to deal with Britain's affordable housing problem. He's even suggested reopening the coal mines that used to be a big part of Britain's economy.

“The reason we are losing ground to the right today is because the message of what socialism is and what it can achieve in people’s daily lives has been steadily diluted,” Corbyn said in a March 2016 speech. “Unless progressive parties and movements break with that failed economic and political establishment it is the siren voices of the populist far-right that will fill the gap.”

Corbyn’s year-plus of Labour leadership has been something of a test case for this theory. So far, it has failed utterly.

When Corbyn took control of Labour leadership last September, UKIP — Britain’s far-right, anti-EU party — had been in decline, netting around 10 percent in the Britain Elects poll aggregator. By the June 2016 Brexit vote over whether to leave the EU, UKIP’s numbers had risen to a little over 15 percent.

Corbyn and Labour publicly supported staying in the EU, but didn’t campaign for it particularly hard. It may not have mattered: Eric Kaufmann, a professor at the University of London who studies populism, looked at what Brexit voters said were the “most important” issues facing the UK. More than 40 percent said immigration; a scant 5 percent said “poverty and inequality.”

According to Kaufmann, this reflects an uncomfortable truth: The kind of voter who’s attracted to the far right just doesn’t care a whole lot about inequality and redistribution, Corbyn’s signature issues. Tacking left to win them over, as Corbyn has, is “a bad idea,” he told me in a phone conversation.

Tacking left has definitely been bad for Labour, which has stunningly low levels of public support. Only 24 percent of Britons approve of Corbyn’s performance, according to the pollster Ipsos MORI, while 62 percent disapprove. This leaves him with net approval rating of -38, the worst any UK opposition leader from any party has recorded at this point in their tenure in the past 35 years of Ipsos polling. Another poll, from YouGov, found that 24 percent of Britons backed Labour — its lowest numbers in YouGov polling since the party was in government in 2009.

Let that sink in for a second. Corbyn’s Labour Party is polling as badly today as it was when it was in power during a global economic meltdown. It is polling substantially worse than it was in 2005, when British troops were dying in Iraq as part of a war known to be waged on false pretenses. In fact, Labour won a parliamentary election held that year.

Britain Elect’s projections say that if an election had been held in early March, the Conservatives would have won by a whopping 13.9 percent. That would be a 4.6-point improvement on their already-large 2015 victory, while Labour would fall from an already weak position by 2.2 percentage points.

“I think it is a serious possibility that Labour has come to the end of its existence,” Matt Williams, a scholar of British politics at Oxford University, says. “Socialism, of some variety, is either not considered viable or is deeply unpopular, and in some cases is both.”

One can dispute Williams’s judgment here, but several facts are undeniable. During Corbyn’s leadership, the far right has gained influence on UK politics, not lost it. Corbyn’s policy platform hasn’t stemmed the spread of anti-immigrant populism, and the Tories have made restricting immigration a central part of their agenda. Corbyn himself is now pandering to the right wing; he ordered Labour MPs to vote to begin the Brexit process in Parliament. And his numbers keep falling and falling.

Left-wing politicians and writers insist that populist policies would win back disenchanted voters. In Britain, the exact opposite has happened.
 
I just can't bite off on this 'pander to the people who picked Trump' notion, when we *barely* lost the election, and there's a whole host of other shit that clearly hurt the dems this time around, like (fairly or not) how disliked Clinton was after decades of being surrounded by controversy, Russian involvement, the Comey letter, etc...

I can't sign on to Bernie's 'take the black vote for granted and go pander to the white folks who just signed us up for four years of white supremacy' crap.

No. No. No. No.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
This merry-go-round we are on drives me absolutely crazy. I blame the fact-free, rhetoric driven GOP platform as the predominant cause. If both parties had to rely on policy and real-world realities to drive their platforms I think we would see steady progress in many areas, but since their voters are generally uneducated it's not necessary for them to play by the same rules, and thus they can continue to rely on anti-intellectual arguments to drive excitement within their constituents.
 
The problem with this is that it doesn't really hold up to the facts. More people voted for Clinton, who was more in line with stability over change. Trump won the Presidency because of a few states that barely tipped over to Republican. Those few states were places ignored by Clinton's campaign. This doesn't really point to a narrative where American en masse voted for upheaval and removal of the status quo.

Sure, a large part of Trump's popularity with his base stems from being the big change candidate but it doesn't hold up across the board.

That's only framing the argument on a presidential race level where people were thinking Clinton was the lesser evil of the two.

And obviously trump gain a lot more of the popular vote than we expected in the nation, so he had national success to get as far as the general election.

You look at congress and your statement falls apart.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Sanders argued, was for the left to develop a populism of its own.

The Democratic Party has always been a populist party (or at least claimed to be). The Republican Party trying to claim populism is what's new.
 
Did Dems not make gains and get more total votes in Congress?

They did, and new organizations like "True blue" are making races closer than ever. I'm just saying the initial backlash to the Dems that got the GOP a majority makes sense in the context of evidence in the article.
 
Just going from the quotes in the OP, I really don't like generalizations like this:

This, they hypothesized, was not an accident. People are only willing to support redistribution if they believe their tax dollars are going to people they can sympathize with. White voters, in other words, don't want to spend their tax dollars on programs that they think will benefit black or Hispanic people

What's much more clear from the evidence of the 2016 election is that White, uneducated voters don't want to spend their tax dollars on programs that they think will benefit black or hispanic people. The shift from white educated voters to white uneducated voters are the clear demarcation of who you voted for in this past election. Trump carried the uneducated White vote by 40 points over Clinton in this election, the largest ever since those statistics started being kept.

In states where government funding goes in larger amounts to black and hispanic people (versus low income white people), for instance, California and the North East, white people have proved to be in favor of programs that allocated tax dollars to programs that help minorities, because these regions have higher percentage of educated, white voters. In states with lower percentages of educated, white voters, they overwhelmingly oppose programs that help not only black and hispanic people, but also poor white people in their states.

Education, not race, is the prime factor here. If you're more educated, you understand that government assistance benefits not only the people receiving assistance, but also you and your community.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The Democratic Party has always been a populist party (or at least claimed to be). The Republican Party trying to claim populism is what's new.

The Democrats have usually been a workers party. That doesn't nessecarily make it a populist party, populism is defined in part by a railing against perceived elites
 
They did, and new organizations like "True blue" are making races closer than ever. I'm just saying the initial backlash to the Dems that got the GOP a majority makes sense in the context of evidence in the article.

Fair enough. I think there's a broader trend of depressed turnout for whichever party has the Executive Branch, but under Obama it's impossible to argue that the GOP didn't make large gains.
 
That's only framing the argument on a presidential race level where people were thinking Clinton was the lesser evil of the two.

And obviously trump gain a lot more of the popular vote than we expected in the nation, so he had national success to get as far as the general election.

You look at congress and your statement falls apart.
Honestly, how can you look at Congress without looking at gerrymandering?

And I would still argue that the individual voter is not voting for change but rather the status quo may drive up voter turnout for the opposition party.

My argument is really against the idea of "stale" governments drive change. I just don't think it is that simple.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
The Democrats have usually been a workers party. That doesn't nessecarily make it a populist party, populism is defined in part by a railing against perceived elites

Andrew Jackson founded the party on the principal of representing the "common man". This has been a thread through the entire history of the party. Representing workers in the fight against the elitist rich definitely falls in line with populism vs elitism.

However, the shifts in the Democratic and Republican Party has lead to differing ways in which each party represents populism vs elitism. The Democratic Party now has intellectual elitism and the Republican Party has white racial and religious populism.
 

Veidt

Blasphemer who refuses to accept bagged milk as his personal savior
Just like in the UK where apparently the National Health Service is so tucking important people will leave the EU to save it (lol...* sigh), yet the voters will do nothing but vote in governments whos sole goal in government is to cut the living daylights out of every budget till it barely functions. Including the NHS.

Number one reason I'm getting the fuck out.
 
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/141293/vox-says-left-wing-economics-wont-defeat-trumpism-vox-wrong

Beauchamp cites the fact that white voters reject wealth redistribution if they believe wealth flows to non-white groups, as evidence that these voters would swing Democratic more often if racism weren’t a factor. This is undoubtedly true. But it’s also true that the party has played down the redistributionist aspects of its platform, and we are operating in a climate shaped by this neglect. Beauchamp is essentially arguing that the party should double down on this strategy.

“If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal—and that means focusing on more than economics,” he concludes. But this is not an argument against the left. In fact, this is close to what the left asks of the Democratic Party. The left does not want to discard identity politics in favor of a purely economic message. It is asking for a more coherent identity politics, one that realizes that Trump has tapped into a specific combination of racism and economic grievance.
 

old

Member
Bernie was right in that my distaste for Hillary was that she was "liberal-lite".

She wanted to raise minimum wage...but not too much.
She wanted to regulate Wall Street...but not too much.
She wanted to increase social spending...but only for certain groups.
...etc.
 
Resolving racial tensions is the challenge of the time.

In fact, it may be the defining challenge of modern man.
I honestly don't think you can resolve racial tensions per se. An increasingly diverse population may help ameliorate some of the issues.

That's a major reason why I love immigration. The contact and integration of new cultures helps shape my (western) culture into a more tolerant and open society.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I honestly don't think you can resolve racial tensions per se. An increasingly diverse population may help ameliorate some of the issues.

That's a major reason why I love immigration. The contact and integration of new cultures helps shape my (western) culture into a more tolerant and open society.

Which is largely why cities get bluer and bluer while rural areas get redder and redder. In some ways it is literally as simple as "do you live in a diverse or homogenous population?"
 
The Democrats have usually been a workers party. That doesn't nessecarily make it a populist party, populism is defined in part by a railing against perceived elites
Breaking up concentrated power and democratizing it is a thread in the party that goes back to Thomas Jefferson. It was kind of the defining argument between him and Hamilton!

Which is not to say that we should embrace the unsavory parts of our party's past, which are pretty ugly. But the Democrats for most of their existence represented a tradition of railing against elite concentrations of power (and also owning slaves). When they became more elitist, a party literally called the Populist Party gained a lot of momentum and the Democrats tried to absorb them into the whole deal, with a combination of adopting their policies and also by being racist. The New Dealers stood against large moneyed interests (and some of them against desegregation). Populism was embedded in the soul of the party for most of its existence until the 70's.
 

Sakura

Member
Yep I will never understand it. It's like well I'm tired of this haircut time to get new one. People take that logic to government and that's how we got a psycopath in charge. Apparently nothing good will ever last since people get tired of good things lol. I can only imagine if we somehow ever got single player that voters would vote in Republicans again because they're tired of having single player.

People don't think the change they want will make their lives worse. They want change thinking it will make things better.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
I think that "look how well racist populism just did! If we run on socialist populism we'll do so well! After all our message is so much better!" is really misguided. It just...it just seems to ignore a lot of realities about the American electorate

This. The country is still largely conservative. It's easier to be conservative than progressive.

Rather, I feel like the left does need to have a better, more clear message is all rather than trying to do a bit of everything.
 
The complete disaster that is Corbyn's Labour is a very bad sign. I wasn't even aware of it completely.

I'm not really defending Corbyn specifically, so maybe his particular version of the "move left" approach doesn't work, but whenever it's brought up, I find it interesting Corbyn is a disaster that should never be replicated (and any other leftward viewpoint is tarred by association), but when it comes to the past 8 years of Democratic losses, that's just how it goes sometimes, and maybe we should tweak things a bit to do better next time.

I understand why it happens, since as with a lot of conservative viewpoints, the status quo always gets the benefit of the doubt, while anything new must immediately be perfect or be rejected.

And of course, "move to the left" isn't necessarily just "become Corbyn". Maybe there's some policies where "move left" works, and some that don't? Maybe people don't like his particular personality, but would accept the same thing in a different candidate (you could actually make this argument for a person with the same policies as Clinton, but without her historical baggage winning the election, though I personally think there's diminishing returns there)? I don't claim to know the exact answer, but I find the "look at Corbyn, that's why moving left worries me!" unconvincing.

It's like people assume "move left" automatically always means "we gotta go full communist", when it could be something as simple as "reduce corporate fundraising an influence, and embody that in your candidacy"
which will naturally lead you to more leftward positions, imo
. Is something like that "moving left"?
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Populism is terrible and essentially governing by feeling rather than reason, so if your solution to anything is based on that, I can't really get behind it.

We can't predict the future, but based on historical trends, where the high-water mark for socialism was a hundred years ago and 6% of the popular vote, I don't think "we haven't been socialist enough!" is a good tack for the Democratic party.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Bernie was right in that my distaste for Hillary was that she was "liberal-lite".

She wanted to raise minimum wage...but not too much.
She wanted to regulate Wall Street...but not too much.
She wanted to increase social spending...but only for certain groups.
...etc.

Pretty much every liberal is this way. Even Bernie. The only question is where you draw the line.

Populism is terrible and essentially governing by feeling rather than reason, so if your solution to anything is based on that, I can't really get behind it.

Your definition of populism has become warped by recent events and very specific kinds of populism. A government should govern for the benefit of its people. That's what populism is.
 

kirblar

Member
What's much more clear from the evidence of the 2016 election is that White, uneducated voters don't want to spend their tax dollars on programs that they think will benefit black or hispanic people. The shift from white educated voters to white uneducated voters are the clear demarcation of who you voted for in this past election. Trump carried the uneducated White vote by 40 points over Clinton in this election, the largest ever since those statistics started being kept.

In states where government funding goes in larger amounts to black and hispanic people (versus low income white people), for instance, California and the North East, white people have proved to be in favor of programs that allocated tax dollars to programs that help minorities, because these regions have higher percentage of educated, white voters. In states with lower percentages of educated, white voters, they overwhelmingly oppose programs that help not only black and hispanic people, but also poor white people in their states.

Education, not race, is the prime factor here. If you're more educated, you understand that government assistance benefits not only the people receiving assistance, but also you and your community.
It's not uneducated voters, its voters with racial resentment (who happen to be more likely to be uneducated.) When you control for that in surveys the gap vanishes.
 
Populism is terrible and essentially governing by feeling rather than reason, so if your solution to anything is based on that, I can't really get behind it.

We can't predict the future, but based on historical trends, where the high-water mark for socialism was a hundred years ago and 6% of the popular vote, I don't think "we haven't been socialist enough!" is a good tack for the Democratic party.
I mean, it isn't really. Populism is about trying to break up concentrated elite power and democratize it. This can take on some truly ugly forms, like Trump, but it isn't "feels over reals."

And social democrats actually kicked ass at US elections, winning 7 out of 9 presidential elections and holding the House and Senate for almost all of that time. There's a lot of reasons why that ended up failing but I don't think it's just as simple as "lol socialists can't win elections." They did rebrand themselves as liberals though, which remains an annoying stain on our political discourse.
 

kirblar

Member
Your definition of populism has become warped by recent events and very specific kinds of populism. A government should govern for the benefit of its people. That's what populism is.
No, it's not. That's like trying to say anyone in favor of a welfare state is a socialist or anyone pro-choice is a feminist. Populism has a very specific definition. Here's the Wikipedia one:
Populism is a political doctrine that proposes that the common people are exploited by a privileged elite, and which seeks to resolve this. The underlying ideology of populists can be left, right, or center. Its goal is uniting the uncorrupt and the unsophisticated "little man" against the corrupt dominant elites (usually the established politicians) and their camp of followers (usually the rich and the intellectuals). It is guided by the belief that political and social goals are best achieved by the direct actions of the masses
Populism is heavily rural in nature- it's basically people seeing the world as though the Hunger Games is real life. (man, that movie looks outright poisonous in hindsight.)

It's also majoritarian, which causes issues w/ minority groups.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Your definition of populism has become warped by recent events and very specific kinds of populism. A government should govern for the benefit of its people. That's what populism is.

Populism in the US has always been a distinctly anti-intellectual movement, so yeah it has been about feelings rather than facts.
 

Somnid

Member
I feel this is also why group based welfare is doomed to failure. If you have a policy it needs to apply whether you're homeless gay trans black quadriplegic or Bill Gates, otherwise the ones who don't benefit (but still have power) will work to sabotage it. It generalizes beyond race, people hate when others don't get what they they deserve.
 
one other note I'd add is that while I pretty much agree with the idea (especially in the US) that whites are less likely to support policies when it feels like "underserving" people are benefitting, I think a lot of people underestimate the fact that a lot of liberal programs intentionally feed into this based on how they're designed, even though they don't actually have to be designed that way.

Yes, there are some white people that would be like "Medicare for all, fuck that, don't want my tax dollars going to the poor" even if they would obviously benefit from it (as would literally anyone since it would be a universal program). But the solution to that problem is not to create a program that directly separates people into "deserving" and "undeserving" of it, based on obscure and overly complex formulas that makes your job of politically defending it even tougher than it needs to be.

"Why did my premiums go up, when that person over there can just get Medicaid from the government" is a rational question, even if the right-wing response to it (let's cut benefits for everyone!) is completely incorrect and immoral. Truly universal programs are better able to take that question off the table. Sure, there's gonna still be random irrational people that will fall for right-wing messaging, and still want the government hands off their Medicare, but the fact that Medicare and Social Security remain popular for 60+ years shows that it makes it easier to politically defend when something is simpler to communicate.
 
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