Does that really make any difference to the consumer though. If they're going to make a FF MMO and they're putting tons of resources into it, calling it FFXI makes more sense than calling it FF The Gaiden Online Thingamagig, purely from a marketing perspective.
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There are almost 300 Square Enix employees on Final Fantasy XIV excluding outsourcing
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Does that really make any difference to the consumer though. If they're going to make a FF MMO and they're putting tons of resources into it, calling it FFXI makes more sense than calling it FF The Gaiden Online Thingamagig, purely from a marketing perspective.
I doubt that Rift comes anywhere near that ridiculously high budget of FF XIV.
Rift had a budget of $50 million.
Given how long Final Fantasy XIV has been in development, and considering the team size over time, I'd expect its budget to be around $100-$120+ million by now.
After 14 launched, it was hard NOT to say that the developers were oblivious to the current reality of the market. That's why it's entirely possible that the business side is oblivious. If the business side keeps demanding that the MMO be subscription-based, then the 14 team doesn't have a choice but to design it that way. You can see with DQ10 that they're still clinging to the subscription model; admittedly DQ is more secure than FF as a brand right now, but launching a subscription MMO is a risk now no matter what.
If the whole thing was just about "saving face", then they would have pulled out all their resources, swept 14 under the rug and ignored anything about 14 altogether.
edgardavids
Member
You have it as a spin off and it fails, its not the end of the world. Games like dragon quest monsters, numerous FF spin offs etc. still sell well because of the name.
Consumers expect a stellar game with each numbered sequel and what they launched with was a complete dud. That's brand damaging and square admitted it so themselves. And if Square couldnt figure out why FF 14 bombed then its just yet another example of how out of touch they are with their consumers.
But that has nothing to do with the title. It has to do with them fucking up this particular game. FFXI was a HUGE success for S-E. FFXIV didn't implode because of unrealistic expectations. It imploded because it was an unfinished and rushed piece of shit.
Yea, example the playable chararcters in FF14 could have been:
Lalafell (short characters) should be Moogles FF12 version.
Black Mages should all look similar to Mages in FF9 (think Vivi)
Common Final Fantasy classes need to be accessible right away.
Etc. And the World needs a lot of love.
really use the brand like Vanilla WOW did with Warcraft 3. Or make a new game without Final Fantasy tied to it.
Stealth20k
Banned
It doesnt make me happy
but its stupid to extrapolate this and say this is why this or that isnt happening
but its stupid to extrapolate this and say this is why this or that isnt happening
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Honestly I really hope they pull through with this, I have no issues with them delaying other stuff if we can have a proper next step up mmo from them 11 was fun. I enjoy 14 but you can literally tell they didn't test shit, rushed it out and just tried to do shit differently to be different
Basileus777
Member
Charts like this make me feel like the future of subscription based MMOs is more the Eve online model, a more modest budget targeting a 300-500k subscriber base instead of these huge projects with an insane amount of resources that need to reach an unsustainable numbers of subscribers.
Aion. Launched 2009 here, now its f2p but still subscription based in korea. Too bad Gameforge is shit at handling the EU version, wheres my 3.0! Its gret and lasted about 3 years as a subscribtion service so I think NCSoft have made a profit on it
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
It's not that I don't see the logic in investing in FFXIV; they're looking for something to make a lot of money in the long term like FFXI did(does). The problem with this logic is that it's flawed because
1) The MMO landscape has changed since 2002
2) First impressions left such a bad taste in people's mouths that they're likely going to pass on playing this even with all of the changes they made and even if they eventually switch to a F2P model.
1) The MMO landscape has changed since 2002
2) First impressions left such a bad taste in people's mouths that they're likely going to pass on playing this even with all of the changes they made and even if they eventually switch to a F2P model.
stupid question, but I'd like to ask it anyway
can't they make a 5$ subscription every month instead of 15$? shouldn't this help people play the game?
I'm not into MMORPG and I've always read about f2p or 10~15$ monthly fees, is there a reason why developers don't try with that price?
I always wanted to try FF11 and I did when I got two free weeks, but that subscription price always blocked me from continuing playing
can't they make a 5$ subscription every month instead of 15$? shouldn't this help people play the game?
I'm not into MMORPG and I've always read about f2p or 10~15$ monthly fees, is there a reason why developers don't try with that price?
I always wanted to try FF11 and I did when I got two free weeks, but that subscription price always blocked me from continuing playing
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I wonder how many copies of FF Versus 13 they would have sold by now if those resources had been allocated that way.
I don't see why there wouldn't be. Is there any reason why people would have become resistant to subscription fees lately? I know a lot of games have turned F2P recently, but I was under the impression that was just to give dying games a last breath. I've always imagined MMOs to be even more resistant to price differences: people want to play the hotness, not the greatest bargain.
Runescape did, and it worked for them good. That was their selling point. It costs so much to develop a game nowadays that pricing your game off the bat at $5 per month is just a really bad idea. It has to get massive to turn profit. I've wished for something similar, a cheaper subscription fee alternative. Maybe restrict your gameplay to a certain amount of hours per week.
Well, Runescape actually does go with that price point.
That said, I imagine the main issue is that you don't get 3x the subscribers with a $5 price over a $15 price, since you still have a subscription barrier.
LunaticHigh
Member
Wasn't FFXI SE's most profitable game ever? Why would this be considered stupid? There are a lot of people, and I mean a lot, who would consider FFXI to be the best gaming experience of their entire lives.
There are hints of brilliance in FFXIV, swallowed in a bunch of complete shit. Yoshida, However, genuinely cares about everyone who plays his game. He works tirelessly. I don't think I've seen a game developer work this hard ever.
FFXIV has been an extremely humbling endeavor for SE. I would of never imagined a company outright admitting its mistakes, setting reasonable, obtainable goals, constantly keeping the community updated, taking user feedback on a daily basis, and pushing their game towards a goal that they can actually meet.
FFXIV might just be the best thing they've ever done. A Realm Reborn is set to be seriously awesome, and I would not be surprised to see them duplicate XI's success, which is probably all they are trying to do.
I honestly believe they will be able to make FFXIV profitable at some point.
Hell, they're still getting money out of FFXI a decade later. The brand name is still strong enough to make an impression in the MMORPG fans market, and if 2.0 ends up being actually good, word of mouth will spread.
I don't think they're just trying to "save face" here. They need that FFXI-2-like continuous profit source.
Hell, they're still getting money out of FFXI a decade later. The brand name is still strong enough to make an impression in the MMORPG fans market, and if 2.0 ends up being actually good, word of mouth will spread.
I don't think they're just trying to "save face" here. They need that FFXI-2-like continuous profit source.
At $5 dollars they aren't making a profit either(on the subscriptions), you would hit break even considering server costs, maintenance and customer service. Subscription based MMO's aren't really making money on selling the box.
Haunted
Member
One of my favourite RPG companies focusing on a subscription-based MMO, holding up development on actual SP RPG projects already in development is truly like a nightmare scenario come true for me.
I'm convinced that even a brand as (formerly?) mighty as Final Fantasy can not successfully sustain a subscription-based MMO today. Blizzard and World of Warcraft are the only ones, and even they are struggling/on a decline recently. I really think the age of the subscription based MMO is over, I really do. S-E doesn't and they're investing a ton of money into this. This is worrisome.
I'm convinced that even a brand as (formerly?) mighty as Final Fantasy can not successfully sustain a subscription-based MMO today. Blizzard and World of Warcraft are the only ones, and even they are struggling/on a decline recently. I really think the age of the subscription based MMO is over, I really do. S-E doesn't and they're investing a ton of money into this. This is worrisome.
Haunted
Member
What are the current numbers of FFXIV, anyway? Does anyone know?I imagine they will at least keep it alive under an f2p model, even if they're barely updating the game.
Well, MMOData isn't perfect, but they do dig through as many financial and PR statements as possible when they try to construct their charts:
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Having my own magitek armor to ride would instantly make it better than the original ff14
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
I kind of feel that Square Enix has reached the point of no return with FFXIV. They can't cancel the game due to the humungous amount of money and time invested, and just write it off as a loss. These ambitious MMO's always cost a ton of money, so I guess they just want to give it their all without holding back and recover whatever they invested (unlikely). I feel bad for them but also appreciate their perseverance. They really, really can't afford to make such poor decisions in the future.
Also a $5 sub fee would bring very less revenues and there won't be a proportionate increase in subscriber base as Nirolak said.
Also a $5 sub fee would bring very less revenues and there won't be a proportionate increase in subscriber base as Nirolak said.
Last October it was 36k. God knows how much it is now.
There's no god damned way it replicates XI's success, even if it does end up being a great game. Its reputation is already tarnished, and a re-release isn't going to stir up very much excitement. Besides, times have changed since FFXI. It's absolutely crazy to make such huge bets in the MMO space these days. 300 staff + outsourced employees to fix a broken game that few care about any more? And they're displacing other projects to focus on this? That's absolutely insane.
I would guess 60k.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
That's me right here. I really hope they got back in touch with whatever they did to make that game so amazing. But considering Lalafel don't look nearly as cute as Tarutaru, and Rhogaedyn don't have tails like Galkas, I doubt it.
H_Prestige
Banned
SE is so clueless. They still think FF means something. They're not going to get FFXI again.
New titles releases always suffered. Not just because of 14 lol.
Ff12 and dq8 strategic release? Versus?kh2?
Come on Se.
IMHO their hopes for 14 is Japan subscriptions. I really doubt us and Europe'll care for ff14. By the time they put their 2.0 together people interest will fly somewhere else (the last of Us/next gen and so on)
WickedLaharl
Member
what a shame.
Elginer
Member
My bro! I'm right there with you.
Glorious Ownage
Member
SE is hoping it can last as long as XI did giving them 8-10 years of a solid player base to recoup their losses
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I'd like to know what was more profitable FFXI or Lord of Vermilion? Since they pump money much like a heart pumps blood.
BlazingDarkness
Member
That will never happen.
I hope XIV is a big success for them, can't wait to play!
LunaticHigh
Member
There are a lot of things they need to to right, like get the people playing FFXI over to it, but to say they're down and out on this title is a little far right now.
The people who loved XI want a game like that again, we don't want another WoW clone. I am personally happy they are investing the right amount of money.
I wait until gamescom's game play debut to see if this was really worth it or not. If it looks great, it'll be successful. There's no doubt about that, people will play it for 10 years.
The people who loved XI want a game like that again, we don't want another WoW clone. I am personally happy they are investing the right amount of money.
I wait until gamescom's game play debut to see if this was really worth it or not. If it looks great, it'll be successful. There's no doubt about that, people will play it for 10 years.
History repeats.
FF does mean something, it's only FFXIII that's damaged really. This will actually have a higher chance of success in japan since they're releasing it on the ps3 where you don't have to buy any expensive add-ons to play it as opposed to FFXI.
Yeah, it won't got free to play. In japan that would be admitting defeat and equaling the game to games of very bad quality and Square already pretty much stated that it would damage the brand too much.
Callibretto
Member
make me excited for ff 14 2.0, I just recently started playing ff14 because of ff11 nostalgia, but ff14 world is pretty barren right now, really big map barely filled with monsters to fight. those 300 men must be working entirely on game content like more enemies etc. looking forward to it.
There's still a huge market of people willing to pay for a MMO. You just have to deliver something unique and be able to keep their attention for a while. The people willing to pay for a subscription are definitely still there. Considering FFXI wasn't even that huge in the MMO space and still was the most profitable FF for SE. The people willing to pay a subscription is definitely a lot bigger than that.
That said the amount of money they're investing just seems insane to me.
People are going to perhaps give me shit for this, but I think it depends on the game. If it is in the same vein as WoW? Of course not. But games that are meaningfully differentiated from WoW? Sure. EVE - though perhaps not 'major' in the sense of WoW and SWTOR - proves that a distinct product can retain (and even grow annually) a subscription audience. EVE's design simply doesn't invite a broad playerbase.
This is no different than people undervaluing FPS #23 relative to its peers. EVE and WoW exist separately; they are not considered as substitutes for one another, but rather products existing within the same base genre. It's really difficult to compare things like Portal or Metroid Prime to Call of Duty, even though they share certain attributes, due to their rather substantial differences.
If you want a sub-based MMO to work, it needs to be as distinct from WoW (and these F2P titles) to such an extent that it is measured for what it is and what it's worth, not by what other games in the genre can or cannot do.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
So when is FFXIV 2.0 out? I wanna give it a shot