Dyson Industries
Banned
It has everything to do with the discussion at hand.
It's time for Sony Too!
edit: That didn't take long.
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Tim Sweeney:MS wants to monopolise games development on PCand we must fight it
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
edit: That didn't take long.
Bits N Pieces
Member
There it is .....
Well, if one wants to be technical and pedantic, anyone can currently install any UWP appx package on their pc at this exact moment in time whether from the Windows Store or not. So technically, there is a solution. What is being added, is a better solution.
That sounds like the open platform I know and love!
Even learning about how it works (or doesn't, as it were) requires a fucking sign-up.
Yup.
Don't worry Durante, you'll find out more at //build next year. MS have your best interests at heart.
You might not like being reminded of your precious Microsoft's wretched history with the platform but this is true.
Ricerocket
Member
It's a very good read in this situation because it reminds how MS says a lot but doesn't act. Perhaps they will have answers at their next event, or the next one after that. But the thing is, why does it have to wait? MS should know ahead of time if they're prepared to move into a new direction unless they don't...
Bits N Pieces
Member
lol, precious.
Sure thing buddy, Microsoft have only ever harmed the PC platform in all it's years of it's wretched existence.
I get that people are dubious or reluctant to believe the things they say, it's understandable but it's those that operate with a closed mind and only enter debate to propose a negative or slanted viewpoint that I see the humour with.
It's like people still think the Satya Microsoft is actually the Ballmer Microsoft. I would say give these iterations of suits a chance or i suppose people can keep regurgitating the same listicle post over and over again in any MS PC thread and get loads of people quoting it with Yup or Truth.
Works both ways, I suppose.
At this juncture extreme scepticism towards Microsoft's move is all but warranted. Even a MS apologist like you can't deny that.
Microsoft are not entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
bee
Member
you used to be able to, not sure now though as 1511 changed some things, i *think* it can only be disabled now
Bits N Pieces
Member
lol, you like your labels, eh?
No one is entitled to anything, that's the point
Of course.
In the meantime less talk more action is required for Microsoft to regain PC gamers' trust, if that can ever be done.
Thus far I'm not certain Microsoft have done much in the PC department aside from being laughed at. The onus to change that lies squarely on them.
michaelius
Banned
How many shops sell uwp apps right now if it is truth ?
It's almost as if there is no better alternative for a gamers wants and needs
And in a perfect world, developers would have multi-platform open-source applications.
Unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world. People are held hostage by MS's policies and operating system because they were there to trojan horse into businesses and games. What is your point? They can't simply "not support" MS when 90% of the things they use in their daily life may/may not use the operating systems MS wrote.
DING DING DING DING DING, WINNER
Lemme know. The sooner I can rip shit that I don't use out of Windows 10, the better. Starting with that useless "productivity help!" that takes up resources. :|
My point is that if that poster wanted to never support them, as was said in the post, they would have never bought Windows in the first place. Which, is, indeed supporting them. Linux is quite capable to replace Windows. If game devs don't develop for it, it is merely because not enough people give a shit to make the switch, even when it is free.
No shit, I got your point. My reply was being finicky toward your "point." Because:
Except it isn't and hasn't ever been. Linux's marketshare isn't even 1% on Steam. What makes you think most gamers are gonna jump ship from Windows just because they don't like MS's policies? When third party developers aren't making Linux applications because there is no user-base there to pay for it, it's a catch-22. Folks won't jump if there's no support, and if there's no support there's no users.
...Just like...
*drumroll*
Windows Mobile.
Oh, hey. You covered this. But still bears repeating. Going "LOL JUMP TO LINUX" is a flippant answer. Nobody is going to do it if developers don't do it first and developers aren't going to do it first because there is no users there.
Maybe you should be telling developers like Epic, EA, Ubisoft to jump instead of telling folks/consumers that don't like MS's policies to. Because once they jump: What is there? Nothing there-by, THEY ARE FORCED TO SUPPORT MS despite not wanting to.
Consumers are holding themselves hostage. Start the rebellion, make the move to Linux and never look back. #letsdothis #linuxgaming #vukcanisnow
In truth, you will likely be gaming on Android or iOS in 15 years and Windows will be relegated to legacy software used by businesses. Those two operating systems will be adding productivity features from here on out chipping away at the only reason the majority of people use Windows. Further eroding an already decaying market. And when mobile devices get powerful enough to not need a dedicated laptop or desktop, bye bye windows.
In truth, you will likely be gaming on Android or iOS in 15 years and Windows will be relegated to legacy software used by businesses. Those two operating systems will be adding productivity features from here on out chipping away at the only reason the majority of people use Windows. Further eroding an already decaying market. And when mobile devices get powerful enough to not need a dedicated laptop or desktop, bye bye windows.
"Potential customers" are developers. Why on earth would they care about installing unstable preview builds? They'll likely be running in a VM anyway.
In the current consumer version of Windows? No, there's no (easy) solution. In the latest insider preview? It's simple. Just to show you what it's like:
Build 14332.
Double click the APPX file->Click install->Done.
Easy.
Except when it fails. A lot. But hey, it's in preview for a reason.
In what ecosystem have consumers been the first to adopt before developers?
Cool.
As nice as it would be, way way way too many business-critical applications are Windows-only through and through and this is unlikely to change within our lifetime. Especially on an international scale, there are a ton of country-specific applications which sometimes you legally have to use (e.g. tax and payroll applications are generally country-specific due to tax nuances and are pretty much invariably Windows-only), which also gets complicated for French-speaking territories and parts of the EU which legally mandate that software be available in French and/or other non-English languages (including official support resources) which seriously cuts down your choices. A lot of times these companies spend few resources on making sure their software is user-friendly or good or what-have-you and uses the bulk of its resources to strengthen the aspects which force their clients to use them. They aren't going to start offering a non-Windows version because it's "the right thing to do". They'd need a massive economic incentive which probably can't realistically be pulled off.
And then there's the obvious problem of support guarantees, which may also have legal requirements (e.g. you know with Microsoft professional-level software like their OSes, Office, SQL server etc. that you're getting a minimum of 10 years of security updates and know the exact date that this will stop), which also culminates into situations like needing everyone to be using the same software (e.g. an international company where one of its minor locations are legally required to use Microsoft Office means that whole company and every company which does business with them must also use Microsoft Office and will never change).
The thing keeping me from Linux was always the troubleshooting. Troubleshooting windows is easy. Problem? Google it. There's the solution, hop through a few menus, wow you've fixed it.
Troubleshooting Linux. Problem? Google it. holy shit I am now spending the next two hours typing in random console commands that I have no idea what they mean hoping that this is the one that will finally fix the problem I am having.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
With stuff like Quantum Break,and KI breaking on a 144hz monitor, there's not much incentive to go there.
Yeah, that is what I was referring to when I said legacy business software. Although, MS will have all their crap available on other OSs too by then. SQL Server on Linux, Office everywhere imaginable, etc. They see the writing on the wall and the UWP is a last ditch effort to garner developer interest on their platforms, because Windows development(developing software targeting their platforms) sure isn't the hotspot currently, lol.
Also, where's Raptor, he would get a kick out of that install screenshot.
Also, where's Raptor, he would get a kick out of that install screenshot.
How do I choose where to install it?
Windows settings
flaxknuckles
Member
I spend about as much time troubleshooting Ubuntu as I do Windows, which is barely at all. Even if I had to enter a console command to fix something I cannot think of the last time it took hours. Hell, I remember spending hours trying to fix my Amd Catalyst Center not opening in Windows 8 and recently in Windows 10 my UWP games not launching, both of which I ended up reinstalling Windows to fix.
Fuck outta here. Really ? That seems a bit.....silly, rather than the typical Win32 way.
Those assholes.
Scums.
They muscled their way in with Microsoft Office because performance was way better than Lotus/WordPerfect because they had access to tons of info on the internal workings of Windows and could optimize better than anyone else could, which was especially important in the days of the 386/486 computers which cost at bare minimum a grand in early 90's money.
The cherry on top was when Bill Gates, after using the internet for an entire day (I think it was his first time really online too) immediately announced "we are putting all of our efforts into cornering the internet" which culminated in IE being force-included for free with Windows (before then businesses had to pay like $30/40 or some such per PC to legally use Netscape Navigator) and even reached a point where Microsoft would financially penalize OEM's if they included any other browser with their PC's (this is a big part of what them being sued for antitrust in the EU was about). This for a long time made IE and MS Office documents the de facto standard in the business world with very very few exceptions (e.g. legal documents still use WordPerfect as their standard), and to this day there are ton of professional-level websites which use ActiveX and require IE (even some countries where the government/banks are legally required to use ActiveX for their customer sites; this is why South Korea traditionally has way higher IE percentages than many other countries for example).
stan423321
Member
That's a pretty good way of learning to dislike Linux too, though. The ubiquity of console is really annoying for hundreds of reasons, not least of which is that Windows programs usually show you most of their options while setting them up, while on Linux you are basically using equivalents of cheat codes. Sure, it's more configurable, but as the primary (and often only) option in many cases it is very annoying.
A rule of thumb with troubleshooting in Linux... learning that Google (or any search engine for that matter) happens to be your WORSE resource.
Let's take me for example, I happen to run Fedora. As good as Fedora is, the first thing that I had to learn when I started using Fedora Core 2 was that Google should only be used when I can't find the answer on IRC, FedoraForums, Ask Fedora(which to be fair didn't exist at the time of FC2) or The Manual . Why? Because Fedora is not Ubuntu... and is not Debian... etc. Since many of the components in Linux share names (likely because they are the same), Google can toss you some rather confusing answers if you search generally on a tool, system function and so on, unless you can narrow the search window to your distro (which isn't hard, but still)
Oh that ship has sailed, Debian used systemd, so does Ubuntu, Fedora, RHEL/CentOS (as of 7 onward), OpenSUSE... you want to run with a big modern distro? Guess what inti system you are using? Just guess.
Granted there are other disputes within the community (like with Gnome 3), but most of them are in the same state as the systemd debate... dead unless you are niche.
dragonelite
Member
Then you need to update something and some config setting is overwritten and the
whole things can be done again. Story of my life, my free time is too precious
to spend it configuring shit in linux. Maybe if devops becomes a more bigger part
of my professional life i might put the effort into mastering linux.
LordRaptor
Member
I was referring to hypothetical customers I might have right now; its not enough that just I as a developer would have to be enrolled in the insider program, anyone I wished to distribute to would also have to be using a preview build. Its why I don't think its a solution.
I'm also not going to use how preview builds as a guarantee for how release builds work; boot to desktop was an option in preview builds of Windows 8 and was removed for full release (then readded in 8.1 due to backlash)
It solves one of the many issues I have with UWA as a format; for someone like Tim Sweeney whose concerns are probably entirely financial, its probably enough of a bone.
How do I install programs on separate disks? Like before, when I could install stuff to a different Hard Drive if I wanted.
You would change in settings before install. And yes, this is quite silly.
Surely you see the difference between booting to the desktop and this. If they had spent a chunk of their Build 2011/2 conference talking in great depth about booting to the desktop, only to scrap the whole thing for full release, you might have a point. Thinking about it actually, how many ideas, solutions, products etc., have MS talked about at Build, that they then never release to the general public? Project Astoria is about the only one I can think of. Even then, the majority of that work lives on in the WSL.
LordRaptor
Member
Sure, but how the feature is implemented is pretty important, if not as important as the feature itself.
I think it is reasonable - given some of the reasoning behind the creation of UWAs in the first place - that it will not be presented to end users as just a grey box with publisher name and install button; I think its pretty likely there will be at least some text warnings regarding security of applications from untrusted sources.
My point is really that we can't judge how this is going to be presented to end users until it actually is presented to end users. Things change between preview and RC builds all the time.
Untrusted warnings will exist for apps with untrusted certs, that is a given since it already exists, I don't think it makes much sense to do that both for apps with trusted and untrusted certs. But we shall see in a couple months. And at least we have moved to how the text will be displayed instead of will it actually exist.
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