I've heard mate used as an insult that started fights, doesn't mean I can claim it is an insult when it isn't. Cis is a useful differentiator when talking about events that involve trans people. It is not there to make cis people feel bad.
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Transgender journalist at EG Expo called "this person" on stage at MS event (See OP)
- Thread starter winstano
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I've heard mate used as an insult that started fights, doesn't mean I can claim it is an insult when it isn't. Cis is a useful differentiator when talking about events that involve trans people. It is not there to make cis people feel bad.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I can see the term getting a negative connotation if it keeps being used in a venomous way. But yeah, the term is not bad by itself.
baphomet
Member
#fuckcispeople
Ol No Bones
Banned
Honest question. What is the correct way to address an individual whom has identifies with a gender that is not representative of their physiological nature? I'm really not sure. Say I decide to identify as a squirrel and begin behaving like a squirrel. Just because I think I'm a squirrel doesn't mean I am a squirrel. I am not a squirrel. Should you affirm the lie that I am a squirrel or try and convince me of the truth that I am not a squirrel. What is appropriate? This is a real situation.
That doesn't mean the word itself was meant as derogatory term nor is it. What Lexi was saying was an attack, yes, but you should see it more as some saying "poor white male" rather than Cis as it's own insult.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Ugh, please no, no this fallacy again.
Ol No Bones
Banned
Wait is this fallacious? Seriously educate me!
You politely ask them how they'd like to be referred to. Not quoting the rest of your post since it's just gonna start a shitstorm.
Suffice it to say that gender dysphoria is not the same thing as having delusions about being an animal, Napoleon, etc.
The comedian REALIZED HIS MISTAKE and didn't corrected his mistake.
He didn't wanted to call her by the right pronoums.
Microsoft apologized for him.
She said that he called her "it"
She realized her mistake and posted talking about it being a mistake.
So if he does something wrong and realize his mistake, he is ok
If she does somethign wrong and realize her mistake, she is a lier ?
Which means that is how their brain works.
It is a documented scientific, sociological and medical term
You are free to identify as a squirrel, but don't complay when people trow a nut at you, be happy that they trew
Don't feel bad when you loose every human right you have since now you are an irrational animal and not an human.
Don't feel bad when people stop talking to you or want to capture you
He didn't wanted to call her by the right pronoums.
Microsoft apologized for him.
She said that he called her "it"
She realized her mistake and posted talking about it being a mistake.
So if he does something wrong and realize his mistake, he is ok
If she does somethign wrong and realize her mistake, she is a lier ?
You adress people by their gender.
Which means that is how their brain works.
It is a documented scientific, sociological and medical term
You are free to identify as a squirrel, but don't complay when people trow a nut at you, be happy that they trew
Don't feel bad when you loose every human right you have since now you are an irrational animal and not an human.
Don't feel bad when people stop talking to you or want to capture you
Depends.
Are you a shithead? If yes, refer to someone by whatever gendered pronoun you like.
If you aren't a shithead? Refer to someone by the gendered pronoun they prefer/identify with.
Ol No Bones
Banned
Ok I will edit. Wasn't trying to start stuff
The lie? You will have to accept that whatever a person identifies as is what they should be called if you want to be civil. Otherwise you just look like a wanker.
Do you have a point? Or are you just flailing wildly now?
He is innocent because he didn't intentionally insult her. He initially thought it was a man, then after a second look was uncertain and decided to play it safe and refer to her as "this person", which is absolutely acceptable.
She is wrong because she intentionally exaggerated the details and attempted to "publicly shame" him based on information that was not true.
I'll bite. I shouldn't because it's a horrible comparison but I will.
Do you really think people believing they're squirrels is the same as someone having gender identity issues? Something that has been medically researched? This argument looks for a way to disprove people with gender identity problems but it doesn't work.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Was not the only lie or 'wrong' fact, mind you.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
myth busted, transgered are just fucking crazy
only through the power of your really shitty squirrel analogy was society able to realize this, thanks neogaf user Ol NO BONES
Not really sure where the guy went wrong here.
She looks like any male Brony many of us have seen at most video game conferences. Most of us wouldn't know she what gender she identified with. Person is probably the safest route. What else would you call someone you don't know the gender for?
She on the other hand got home. Had time to think up some lies and then post it on Twitter. Now I understand this heat of the moment thing but now its been a few days and she making it worse by making up more lies. Had she retracted her initial statements and let it die down, I doubt she would be getting this scrutinized.
She looks like any male Brony many of us have seen at most video game conferences. Most of us wouldn't know she what gender she identified with. Person is probably the safest route. What else would you call someone you don't know the gender for?
She on the other hand got home. Had time to think up some lies and then post it on Twitter. Now I understand this heat of the moment thing but now its been a few days and she making it worse by making up more lies. Had she retracted her initial statements and let it die down, I doubt she would be getting this scrutinized.
not psycho
Member
We still don't know what happened, do we? You are assuming things beyond what we have corroboration for.
Did he ever refer to her as male, or only as "this person"? Did he realize his mistake at the time and keep going, or only realize it afterward?
1) he comedian realized his mistake, and corrected it as best he could on the spot.
2) The comedian appears to never have called her "it." That is part of the misinformation going around that I was referring to.
3) And again, she never made a "mistake." It was intentional fabrication. That's the difference.
It's not a double standard. It's about intent. One is an accident, and the other is not.
4) And he did apologize. I read it on Kotaku.
"No offence was intended when I referred to Laura Kate Dale as ‘this person’ after I asked the audience to applaud her...
...and I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any offence and hurt I may have caused."
Just nitpicking, but the decision to lie was the mistake, not the lie.
I can understand making a mistake but I don't like that he continued to ignore using the proper pronouns. He did realize she was transgendered but instead called her this person. It's not super offensive or anything and it's an obvious communication problem where they should have talked after and he should have apologized but I don't think he's completely innocent. He just didn't deserve this kind of call out on twitter.
NOBODY can know it was an INTENTIONAL fabrication.
She felt ofended, she was ofended and said that he ofended her.
"this person" isn't a mistake and isn't offensive in any way, she was offended because she expects people to be assholes (and rightly so) but that's her problem and certainly not the comedian's. People shouldn't have to walk on mines every time they talk to a trans woman.
Look for deliberate efforts to associate with a gender. If an androgynous or confusingly gendered person is wearing women's clothes or makeup in the style of women (lipstick, eyeliner, etc), then default to the corresponding gender for the symbols of that effort. Gauge the response to that. If there's an unobtrusive opportunity for a social prompt to politely ask "do you have a preferred way I might address you?" take it, but be cordial and maintain eye contact as you should in any setting where you're being introduced to someone.
Those whose appearance is unclear but insist that outsiders know immediately how to address them when on a deeply personal level they have difficulty answering that question are acting unreasonable. Be respectful and adjust your terminology appropriately, but if you don't intend disrespect and they push the issue, push back firmly with an explanation of your confusion. People who feel dis-empowered sometimes take the opportunity to exert "power" in ways which are misplaced, and it sometimes takes this form. Put aside your frustration if this seems to be happening.
Zoe
Member
She put words into his mouth that he did not say. How is that not intentional?
I think depending on the context it can be offensive.
Like it seems he realized she wasn't male and instead of referring to her as a girl, he said this person.
I'm not denying she was offended, and embarrassed. It sounds like an awkward situation.
But she claimed that he said things that he categorically denies saying. She later left these key details out of her update article. She also misrepresented what Kotaku said to her. She also misrepresented the details about her phone number being released.
That's what I'm talking about. It matters because if the guy never said those things, it changes the entire story. And that has huge consequences for how this guy is going to be perceived, and the kind of harassment and career consequences he endures.
I'm just repeating myself now. It should be pretty clear what I'm talking about here.
robotzombie
Member
I don't even know why I'm bothering, because honestly at this point you have to just be a troll character. I need to believe that over knowing someone is out there in the world so defiantly irrational
She very specifically said that this man referred to her as "it" and "thing" and wanted to publicly shame him for making such horrific statements. He never said these things, these were lies she used to inflate the situation.
It also shows that the culture of "naming and shaming" people on the internet and how easy it is to post your initial emotional reaction to events has betrayed a lot of people in the messages that they want to get out.
I would even give her the benefit of the doubt that she believed that she heard the nasty words that she wrote in her original tweets.
It's just a shame that this is being used by bigots as you said to dismiss these issues.
I feel sometimes that I post stuff that I regret when I'm in the heat of the moment. It usually only takes a few posts to realize what I said was wrong. It's difficult to go back and admit defeat. I couldn't imagine doing that when being under siege like she was.
I feel that the comedian has a right to have his reputation restored is what I'm saying, but I understand her reluctance to admit that she was wrong. It's easier to go forward like that, rather than admit ignorance or dishonesty.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
But was not malicius as she seemed to imply with the it at the begining.
No, I won't let this stand. Please re-read the series of specific claims about his behavior toward her. Assuming she's in control of her own faculties, there's no question that she acted deliberately to mislead, mis-characterize, and attack someone through public shaming for something she eventually admits that he didn't do. This doesn't rely on any outside account, only the consideration of her own words.
HORRORSHØW
Member
This story certainly took an interesting turn. I owe the presenter an apology.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Has she claimed to misheard him though? I thought part of the ensuing drama was that apparently she went back on what she originally stated he said and hence it was hard to follow her side of the story due to the discrepancies.
I can understand being extremely upset and flustered after leaving and hence maybe misremembering things (not that I entirely buy that she mistakenly attributed a bunch of things to Fraser that didn't actually happen), but it was an awful idea to go to twitter to vent about the experience if it led to her claiming all these things were said to her that actually weren't.
Still find it bizarre there's no video footage of this event though, considering it was MS and had 300 plus people.
EDIT:
It isn't, though I don't think (?) anybody at this point is arguing using 'this person' in this sort of context is offensive. May lead to some unfortunate embarrassment for the trans person in question, but the alternative is always probably going to lead to a shit-storm while the former shows you're aware of their lifestyle and you're trying to tread lightly because you don't want to make a potentially offensive assumption.
Hmm... I don't see how avoiding using gendered pronouns after accidentally misusing gender pronouns is malicious. If anything, it shows that you realize your mistake and don't want to repeat it. He's not gonna ask her "are you a boy or girl?" on stage and he probably didn't know what words he was "supposed" to use.
People say this person all the time there's nothing sinister about it, making the assumption that it's sinister only because she's trans is extremely presumptive. For example do you know this guy and are you sure he's not referring to other people as "this person"?
I agree. But in the moment she didn't see it that way and if the audience laughing was real, I can see why she was humiliated and offended and that leading to her mishandling the situation. It also didn't help that she tried to speak to the comedian but they wouldn't let her.
The Huffington Post article seems to pretty much say that he made a mistake and corrected himself by saying "that person."
I'm still wondering where the original comments came from. I really hope her claims were genuine and that it was just a case of her believing something was happening that actually wasn't.
not psycho
Member
From his own account, he seems to be saying he didn't know which gender she was until later, and that was why he said "this person."
Can someone explain to me why people are defending her lying and trying to get this guy into trouble, and are treating it as if she made a mistake? The earlier pages of this thread were full of torches and pitchforks to destroy this guys life and now that we find out that he said none of the things she claimed he said it's just "an honest mistake" and "she misheard him most likely because of stress."
I mean seriously, it's not as if she was saying he called her "it" and that was the story. She was raging all over the internet for a couple of days as if this guy stood on stage and deliberately pointed out her differences and made a fool of her.
I mean seriously, it's not as if she was saying he called her "it" and that was the story. She was raging all over the internet for a couple of days as if this guy stood on stage and deliberately pointed out her differences and made a fool of her.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
In a ban bait thread full of serious bizness and the lies OH THE LIES... "or want to capture you" had me fucking rolling. The mental image is divine...
DICKS AHOY
Banned
should I feel dumb for being australian and not recognising the OI part of their username when I responded to them
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
The problem is her post reactions of that event. I can understand her being hurt and humilliated, but not keep lying even when you know the situation was not malicious and it didn't need to be bigger.
Dion Blaster
Member
Dude was speaking in front of 300 people, he was probably embarrassed about the mistake he made and uncomfortable being in a situation he'd never been in before. He probably felt if he called her "she" after that it would draw more attention to his mistake and more attention to her.
I do feel bad for her though, sounds like a shitty situation, not sure about going to twitter for this stuff though.
I do feel bad for her though, sounds like a shitty situation, not sure about going to twitter for this stuff though.
I haven't read every page of this thread, but I haven't seen it mentioned that it's very difficult to tell from just appearance whether the person is a TS or a TV. So, yeah, your proposal totally fits. The presenter starts with "he" because he probably just glanced at the person coming up onto the stage. Then realizes his mistake, and now has to decide if this is a TS, in which case, he should use "she", or a TV, in which case, he should use "he". Instead of belaboring the point, he quickly comes up with a genderless term.
Huh? I never said the word was offensive, just that in certain context it can be. Tone and context are very important.
While I know it's harder to believe her part of the story after she lied(accidentally or purposely we don't know yet) her newest one still says he realized he had misgendered her by calling her male and then realized his mistake but called her "this person"
If I realized I misgendered, wouldn't the correct next step be to either apologize or refer to them as the only other pronoun?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Realistically if I was in {what I personally interpreted to be anyway) a hugely embarrassing public situation in front of several hundred seemingly laughing people, I'd probably be swearing bloody murder and then some in my head for the person in particular I felt was the blame of said ridicule, and in the process unintentionally make a few assumptions or exaggerate events in my head as time passed.
I just wouldn't proceed to post it on a huge public forum like twitter.
I just wouldn't proceed to post it on a huge public forum like twitter.
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