Support NeoGAF

[KojiKnight]

Yeah no it isn't. This is honestly just something Arin said in his Sequelitis video of Zelda and LttP and people took it to heart without giving it a second thought

This was said long before sequelitis... In fact, it's clear he got the notion from Zelda fans, not the other way around.


And that said... Yes the game added more mechanics and a further emphasis on story, but it IS aLttP 3d, just like LttP is just a refined slightly more linear 16 bit version of Zelda 1.

Zelda games are iterative by nature.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Yeah no it isn't. This is honestly just something Arin said in his Sequelitis video of Zelda and LttP and people took it to heart without giving it a second thought

did he really said that? I actually had this feeling since before this video, but hey that just my feelings after playing them back to back! It wasn't meant to be reductive, OOT is still a great game no doubt about it! He brings a lot of idea gameplay wise! I was talking about the progression, the item you got, etc...

The dungeons weren't that great IMO, especially compared to majora's mask! Except the water temple (which everyone hate surprisingly, it's the best for me! )

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Op, I've never played Twilight Princess.

I have played Wind Waker.

You are correct.

 

[duckroll]

just like LttP is just a refined slightly more linear 16 bit version of Zelda 1.

Errrrrrrrrrrr.... okay... now I don't know what to say to that at all. Some statements aren't even opinions, they're just factually inaccurate.

 

[KayMote]

One aspect in which TWW totally failed for me - especially compared to Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword - was its variety gameplay-wise.
I mean look at some things you had to do in TP in order to reach a dungeon: do an escort mission, fight gorons in beat 'em up-style, snowboard down a snowy mountain, fight your way through a desert by sniping archers and riding boars etc.

In TWW you mostly only had to reach a certain place, find a specific character, press A to talk to it and you would gain almost instantly access to the dungeon.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I haven't played TP since the Wii launch. When I went to replay it I couldn't because the beginning is so damn long and boring.

But I did finish the game when I first played it, and I can see someone saying it's the better game. I don't think I'd disagree that the overworld and dungeons are a notch above WW.

But WW's style and world are so much more appealing to me. The dungeons aren't weak either, and I personally enjoyed sailing the high seas versus that weird shit going on in TP, or turning into a wolf. WW is bright and colorful while TP is dim and depressing.

Give me WW over TP any day.

 

[Cloukyo]

TP was brilliant, wish it didn't have such a slow opening.

The opening for WW was better and I think I prefer that link better so I'm not sure to be honest.

 

[Peltz]

One aspect in which TWW totally failed for me - especially compared to Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword - was its variety gameplay-wise.
I mean look at some things you had to do in TP in order to reach a dungeon: do an escort mission, fight gorons in beat 'em up-style, snowboard down a snowy mountain, fight your way through a desert by sniping archers and riding boars etc.

In TWW you mostly only had to reach a certain place, find a specific character, press A to talk to it and you would gain almost instantly access to the dungeon.

Sounds like Wind Waker has less bullshit to me. I had to do a Panzer Dragoon-style mini game in Twilight Princess near Lake Zora in the beginning of the game to find tears of light.

Why? Why is that in a Zelda game? WHY?!?!

Why is that not optional? WHY?!

It played poorly and ruined the pacing. It should never have happened.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Errrrrrrrrrrr.... okay... now I don't know what to say to that at all. Some statements aren't even opinions, they're just factually inaccurate.

i have to agree with you this time... (about zelda 1)

Man Zelda is really something, we all agree and disagree on a lot of differents things, the fanbase is really divided

 

[Branduil]

Yep. I mean something like Z-targeting, horse riding and context sensitive controls were strong features at the time but because they're now common place in today's world people tend to trivialize what OoT brought to the table. It was not a small feat and saying it's just ALTTP in 3D is reductive. It also established a lot of lore that is now standardized in the series. Let's not forget what the Zoras were depicted as in ALTTP compared to what they are now...

Ocarina of Time's real-time cinematic cutscenes were also impressive for its time. It wasn't the only game incorporating cinematic techniques into games at the time, obviously, but it was still pretty new.

 

[duckroll]

One aspect in which TWW totally failed for me - especially compared to Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword - was its variety gameplay-wise.
I mean look at some things you had to do in TP in order to reach a dungeon: do an escort mission, fight gorons in beat 'em up-style, snowboard down a snowy mountain, fight your way through a desert by sniping archers and riding boars etc.

In TWW you mostly only had to reach a certain place, find a specific character, press A to talk to it and you would gain almost instantly access to the dungeon.

This doesn't seem accurate to me. I remember WW having a good amount of variety. Where it fell short was there just weren't enough dungeons and the game just ended. There's the stealth portion, there are a number of traversal puzzles involving using wind and the glider or the boat. There are treasure hunting puzzles where you need to figure out where to go next.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

This was said long before sequelitis... In fact, it's clear he got the notion from Zelda fans, not the other way around.


And that said... Yes the game added more mechanics and a further emphasis on story, but it IS aLttP 3d, just like LttP is just a refined slightly more linear 16 bit version of Zelda 1.

Zelda games are iterative by nature.

did he really said that? I actually had this feeling since before this video, but hey that just my feelings after playing them back to back! It wasn't meant to be reductive, OOT is still a great game no doubt about it! He brings a lot of idea gameplay wise! I was talking about the progression, the item you got, etc...

The dungeons weren't that great IMO, especially compared to majora's mask! Except the water temple (which everyone hate surprisingly, it's the best for me! )

That could be, but it's...still weird to say that it is LttP. I get the whole "Big Shell was Shadow Moses all this time" thing, but that still doesn't make MGS2 be MGS1 and it's not just because of the meta narrative. OoT can have the same "collect crystals, go to eight dungeons!" progression, but does that really deny it of it's achievments? And saying that it's the same game but with more story and different mechanics... already make it a whole different game by default lol

 

[Johannsson]

Only dungeons

 

[oti]

Yup.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

That could be, but it's...still weird to say that it is LttP. I get the whole "Big Shell was Shadow Moses all this time" thing, but that still doesn't make MGS2 be MGS1 and it's not just because of the meta narrative. OoT can have the same "collect crystals, go to eight dungeons!" progression, but does that really deny it of it's achievments? And saying that it's the same game but with more story and different mechanics... already make it a whole different game by default lol

but i've never said that, at all

 

[Branduil]

Not only did Wind Waker not have enough dungeons, but the last two were really bad. Combined with the triforce hunt it left a bad taste in your mouth.

As for LttP and OoT, really the main similarities are in the overall structure of the game's story. The actual gameplay is quite different, and not just because of the 2D to 3D jump, to say nothing of the presentation. Ocarina's dual-world mechanic was also more interesting than LttP's, on both a mechanical and thematic level.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

but i've never said that, at all

Sorry! I should have separated your response with the other! My only part of that for you is the one where maybe it wasn't Arin who started this, but I always felt like he was to most proeminent ahah

 

[sanstesy]

Which game I have more nostalgia for? - The thread.

 

[KojiKnight]

Errrrrrrrrrrr.... okay... now I don't know what to say to that at all. Some statements aren't even opinions, they're just factually inaccurate.

What's factually wrong? Zelda 1: explore an over world while solving puzzles and completing dungeons, which unlock more tools to solve more puzzles and dungeons.

LttP, more involved story necessitates a more linear progression, but is still about exploring an over world to solve puzzles and beat dungeons that unlocks more tools to solve more puzzles and beat more dungeons.

OoT is the same, only made even more linear due to heavier use of story. Explore, solve puzzles, unlock tools, explore/solve/unlock more.


These are completely linear iterations, but the core is still identical.


Every addition in LttP and OoT exists only to further those same steps. TP is almost the exact same. It's just OoT with a few more mechanics, but it's still essentially the same.

 

[VDenter]

If we are talking strictly about dungeons then yes Twilight Princess might actually be the best 3D Zelda. The problem is we all know that is not enough otherwise you would have thread of people claiming how better it is than OOT and MM as well. Twilight Princess has probably the least interesting world ever put into a Zelda game. As much as people harp on the great sea well i seriously hope they are not serious about Hyrule field having much to find because besides a couple of bugs and heart pieces its completely empty. As much as i hate Skyward Sword for insulting the players intelligence at every single step of the way. At least it had some refreshing concepts. Twilight Princess was just a bland Ocarina of Time thats about it.

Not like this matters much anyway since Breath of the Wild came out and is undeniably the best 3D Zelda.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

What's factually wrong? Zelda 1: explore an over world while solving puzzles and completing dungeons, which unlock more tools to solve more puzzles and dungeons.

LttP, more involved story necessitates a more linear progression, but is still about exploring an over world to solve puzzles and beat dungeons that unlocks more tools to solve more puzzles and beat more dungeons.

OoT is the same, only made even more linear due to heavier use of story. Explore, solve puzzles, unlock tools, explore/solve/unlock more.


These are completely linear iterations, but the core is still identical.

By this logic Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are the exact same game. So is Sonic and Mario. And Halo and Gears of War.

The list can go on and on.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Sorry! I should have separated your response with the other! My only part of that for you is the one where maybe it wasn't Arin who started this, but I always felt like he was to most proeminent ahah

ho okay, no problem then

 

[KojiKnight]

By this logic Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are the exact same game. So is Sonic and Mario. And Halo and Gears of War.

The list can go on and on.

I mean... That's not a wrong interpretation. *shrugs* I guess I'm just arguing semantics now.

Just think about why BotW is said to be such a big departure by nearly everyone. It still has a ton of its conventions, but after the first hour of gameplay when you get most of your tools, it breaks the cycle. It's truly unique because it's not just lttp with a fresh coat of paint.

 

[beril]

What's factually wrong? Zelda 1: explore an over world while solving puzzles and completing dungeons, which unlock more tools to solve more puzzles and dungeons.

LttP, more involved story necessitates a more linear progression, but is still about exploring an over world to solve puzzles and beat dungeons that unlocks more tools to solve more puzzles and beat more dungeons.

OoT is the same, only made even more linear due to heavier use of story. Explore, solve puzzles, unlock tools, explore/solve/unlock more.


These are completely linear iterations, but the core is still identical.

this applies to every sequel ever; or pretty much every game within the a certain genre

 

[JimJamJones]

I'll agree TP has better dungeons

Spoiler

SNOWPEAK RUINS YEAH

, but the rest of your points... not so much.

 

[fastmower]

Wind waker has better characters, exploration, and charm - and that's what has stuck with me over the years.

 

[Chinbo37]

This seems on topic I hope but I wanted to start a thread so maybe here is a good place. Now what is the definitive version of TP?

GC
Wii
Wii U
GC in Dolphin with widescreen
Wii in Dolphin

??

 

[duckroll]

What's factually wrong? Zelda 1: explore an over world while solving puzzles and completing dungeons, which unlock more tools to solve more puzzles and dungeons.

LttP, more involved story necessitates a more linear progression, but is still about exploring an over world to solve puzzles and beat dungeons that unlocks more tools to solve more puzzles and beat more dungeons.

OoT is the same, only made even more linear due to heavier use of story. Explore, solve puzzles, unlock tools, explore/solve/unlock more.


These are completely linear iterations, but the core is still identical.

Having replayed Zelda 1 just two months ago, I'll say that isn't an accurate description of the formula at all. Zelda 1 is extremely combat centric and almost all the tools you acquire are meant to aid you in combat rather than solve puzzles or progress. There are maybe two tools you actually need to gain access to dungeons. Otherwise the majority of dungeons could be accessed from the start if you knew how. There are hardly any gimmick soluions in Zelda 1 where you apply and item or techique to overcome a boss.

LttP isn't iterative of Zelda 1 or 2, it is very much a totally different approach for the design of the series moving forward. That remained iterative until BotW.

 

[KayMote]

This doesn't seem accurate to me. I remember WW having a good amount of variety. Where it fell short was there just weren't enough dungeons and the game just ended. There's the stealth portion, there are a number of traversal puzzles involving using wind and the glider or the boat. There are treasure hunting puzzles where you need to figure out where to go next.

I'll give you the stealth section, but what I was trying to say is that every single one of these tasks was rooted in the gameplay mechanics that were already introduced early on. I guess for some people that might be a good thing, but for me personally it felt a bit lacking and I appreciated the little suprises in TP in terms of objectives more.

 

[Wireframe]

What's with the antagonistic thread title? I personally prefer Wind Waker but man, way to discourage sensible discussion.

 

[Barry Burton]

Wind Waker is all eye candy and very little substance. Strip away the gorgeous visuals and all that's left is a dumbed-down shell of a Zelda game. It's one of the most disappointing games I've ever played.

Twilight Princess, while flawed, is a vastly superior game.

 

[Cloukyo]

TP had better combat btw

 

[Protome]

I've never understood the love for WW beyond it's art style. It's beautiful and charming but goddamn is it a bore.

 

[KojiKnight]

LttP isn't iterative of Zelda 1 or 2, it is very much a totally different approach for the design of the series moving forward. That remained iterative until BotW.

It's less so, but things like bombs, raft, ladder, bow/holy arrow, all exist to hard gate, while things like the rod and rings and swords are definitely soft gates.

Though you're right, LttP, is definitely less iterative to Zelda 1 by itself, but I'd argue it takes a lot of concepts of Zelda 2 and applies it to Zelda 1 (more hard gating, more story)

 

[RoadHazard]

I always have a very hard time deciding which I like better. I like some aspects of WW better, some of TP. Not that it matters much now that BotW has come along and blown them both out of the water, up into orbit, and on into interstellar space. That game.

But WW and TP are both good games.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, yeah, I think I agree that TP is the better game. WW has that wonderful sense of adventure as you're sailing across the sea, and as boring as that can get I still love it for it. But it obviously has less/weaker actual content than TP.

 

[Cloukyo]

I've never understood the love for WW beyond it's art style. It's beautiful and charming but goddamn is it a bore.

Characters, music and comedic vibe also added to the game.

At the time the combat was more advanced too.

 

[jariw]

This seems on topic I hope but I wanted to start a thread so maybe here is a good place. Now what is the definitive version of TP?

TP:HD is the definitive version. Cuts some unnecessary stuff, map and inventory management on the Gamepad (and the inventory can be managed while running/riding), HD textures and some added polygons, and so on.

 

[ScientificPizza]

This seems on topic I hope but I wanted to start a thread so maybe here is a good place. Now what is the definitive version of TP?

GC
Wii
Wii U
GC in Dolphin with widescreen
Wii in Dolphin

??

WiiU for sure

 

[Branduil]

Characters, music and comedic vibe also added to the game.

At the time the combat was more advanced too.

Wind Waker definitely felt really good to control. The primary problem with the game's combat was that waiting for the magic "A" prompt(the win button) was almost always the most effective way to play, despite being super boring and easy. Especially once the game started throwing multiple Darknuts at you.

 

[IronicSonic]

OP, people who think otherwise is crazy.

 

[Beegeous]

For me WW takes it. Have finished both HD remakes within the last 6 months, and with WW having a better story twinned with the having an incredible vibe and personality, TP just never felt 'big'. Even the big, open areas just felt like corridors between Castle Town and the dungeons whereas WW just felt (rightly or wrongly) more open.

 

[abbyabs]

Windwaker HD all the way

 

[duckroll]

It's less so, but things like bombs, raft, ladder, bow/holy arrow, all exist to hard gate, while things like the rod and rings and swords are definitely soft gates.

Though you're right, LttP, is definitely less iterative to Zelda 1 by itself, but I'd argue it takes a lot of concepts of Zelda 2 and applies it to Zelda 1 (more hard gating, more story)

The raft and ladder are the only real hard gates linked to finding dungeons. Bombs were regular enemy drops and could be bought. Overall I think Zelda 1 completely ignored the "puzzle box" formula that Zelda fell very comfortably into.

Yes, Zelda 2 had more hardgating and I agree that they took more elements of that in LttP, but the game's formula was still very different. Most of the challenge in Zelda 2 is also combat. Lots of combat. Dungeons were not places you went into to solve puzzles and fight bosses with a cool new tool. They were places filled with deadly enemies and you killed them before they kill you to progress. You can't get "stuck" in a dungeon because you couldn't solve a puzzle. You get stuck because combat is too damn hard.

LttP changed ALL this by basically building the game around a fixed linear set of dungeons, each of which was a different themed puzzle box. This became the Zelda formula.

 

[NewGame]

I disagree OP, also you have bad BO and your mother has weight problems

Now that I have presented the best argument possible I believe we can close the thread.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I think Wind Waker is the only 3D Zelda I can't beat again. I just get too damned bored playing it to finish. It looks really nice, but there simply isn't enough below the surface to keep me hooked.

And after playing BOTW, the barren overworld, one of the only things the game had going for it, is going to seem even worse.

 

[Ocarina_117]

You will reach true transcendence when you realise Skyward Sword is better than both Twilight Princess and Windwaker.

Dem dungeons.

Dem bosses.

Dat timeswitch stone.

Dat sound track.

Dat girahim.

Dat ending.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

WW has many drawbacks that seriously compromise it. Empty overworld, terrains feels the same all around, very few places to visit, long time to travel between islands, boring to death quests, non-existent difficulty (I finished without dying a single time and I'm far from being a top player). The reason why it's so acclaimed the way it is is because of the art style and direction. If you remove the art style it'll be an average at best Zelda game. It was the first Zelda game for many of the GCN/Wii generation so they are very personally attached to it.

I don't get why WW fans complain so much about TP being slow and overworld empty while WW has the same flaws. Because WW was the kick off for the GCN/WII generation, they also hold a rivalry against the N64 titles, most especially OOT, for the most influent 3D Zelda ever. A major reason why TP get some backslash from WW fans is because of it's strong connection to OOT art and gameplay wise, so they rather prefer to praise something running away from the OOT/N64 formula and more attached to GCN/WII and their generation.

 

[Opa-Pa]

I disagree. Dungeons were fine, not even that great as some claim, but better than WW's I believe... However they're the only part from the game I remember liking, outside the true Kakariko section and Midna.

Meanwhile I adore absolutely everything in WW despite how easy it is and how simple the dungeons are. The charm, (false?) sense of scale and adventure, story and overall aesthetic are simply among the best in the series for me. I get that dungeons are important but they aren't everything for me, and even as simple as they are they were still enjoyable to me.

just like LttP is just a refined slightly more linear 16 bit version of Zelda 1.

I feel like saying OoT = ALTTP 3D is already stretching it a lot, but I still think like you could call some entries in the series iterative, and yet... No, this is just not accurate at all.

ALLTP basically took a few elements from the original and created the general formula for the rest of the series. It's pretty much the reason no other game has ever attempted to really be like Zelda 1 until now that we got BoTW. Zelda 1 lives and dies by its open-endness and mystery, and ALTTP made Zelda linear and more story focused.

 

[Magicpaint]

You will reach true transcendence when you realise Skyward Sword is better than both Twilight Princess and Windwaker.

Dem dungeons.

Dem bosses.

Dat timeswitch stone.

Dat sound track.

Dat girahim.

Dat ending.

Then you realise that Fi exists, exploration doesn't, and tad tones and everything brings it allllllll the way down.

 

[KojiKnight]

LttP changed ALL this by basically building the game around a fixed linear set of dungeons, each of which was a different themed puzzle box. This became the Zelda formula.

Alright, you won me over as far as that goes at least


Afraid you'll never convince me of LA's dominance though.